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Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:40 pm
by Usacomp2k3
As a co-processor. Or maybe like the physX. RayX.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:57 pm
by Redocbew
Krogoth wrote:
The rendering pathways are comically parallel so scalability isn't that much of a problem unlike rasterization.


Dafaq?

It will begin to make more sense to make specialized chiplets if the industry wants to continue the pathtracing/ray-tracing route.


If that were to happen it wouldn't be seen by the OS as multiple GPUs, so it's not an application of crossfire or SLI. Comparing this to monolithic vs MCM designs is apples to oranges.

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
As a co-processor. Or maybe like the physX. RayX.


Maybe, but the most important part of physX is the software, by far. This is a bit different since performance is trash without the hardware, and since it's already being used to promote GPUs it's probably going to stay that way.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:46 pm
by Usacomp2k3
Redocbew wrote:
Usacomp2k3 wrote:
As a co-processor. Or maybe like the physX. RayX.


Maybe, but the most important part of physX is the software, by far. This is a bit different since performance is trash without the hardware, and since it's already being used to promote GPUs it's probably going to stay that way.

I don’t know what I’m talking about, but is the hardware for Raytracing the same as what is needed for conventional graphics?

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:59 pm
by Redocbew
Not really. You can think of rasterization as being done by general purpose hardware where ray tracing is done by fixed function hardware designed for a single purpose. Specifically it's the BVH tree traversal used to determine the intersections of each ray. Calculating the path of each ray is relatively quick, but once they start bouncing off things it can get kind of intense. That's the part that the RT units(or whatever nvidia called them) offloads from the general execution core of the GPU.

You could do that in software using either the general compute units of the GPU, or even the CPU, but it would take a while. I don't remember exactly what tests were run, but I don't think there was the same kind of performance delta when physx was new.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:14 pm
by dragontamer5788
Usacomp2k3 wrote:
Redocbew wrote:
Usacomp2k3 wrote:
As a co-processor. Or maybe like the physX. RayX.


Maybe, but the most important part of physX is the software, by far. This is a bit different since performance is trash without the hardware, and since it's already being used to promote GPUs it's probably going to stay that way.

I don’t know what I’m talking about, but is the hardware for Raytracing the same as what is needed for conventional graphics?


The BSDF of Raytracing is probably very similar to the Pixel-shader hardware in Rasterization. The main issue, as Redocbew points out, is the BVH tree traversal, which the classical GPU design is suboptimal at (but still better than CPUs at). NVidia added special units for extra-fast BVH traversal

BVH is the "quick and dirty" estimate for where rays may be intersecting with the geometry of the scene. If a pixel starts at location (0,0,0), and is launched with (0,0,1) bearings, which triangle will it hit (or does even any triangle exist in that direction?) If there are multiple triangles in that direction, which one is closest? The pixel-shading question is "what angle is the triangle pointing at" (the normal vector), which leads to the question "where should the ray "bounce" towards ?? And once the ray bounces, its a new BVH traversal to find the new triangle that the ray points at.

BSDF of Raytracing would probably replace Pixel shaders... but Vertex and Geometry shaders would take place "before" the raytracer would run (even if you completely got rid of rasterization: there are too many effects that video game programmers use in the Vertex and Geometry shader parts of the pipeline). So that stuff probably would remain the same.

Krogoth wrote:
Actually, CF/SLI might make a big comeback if the gaming industry takes a serious turn towards pathtracing/ray-tracing. The rendering pathways are comically parallel so scalability isn't that much of a problem unlike rasterization. The economic realities of monothic chips are catching up. It will begin to make more sense to make specialized chiplets if the industry wants to continue the pathtracing/ray-tracing route.

AMD RTG didn't throw infinity fabric into the Navi architecture for a quick laugh. I wouldn't be surprise if they end-up making a dedicated ray-tracing chiplet and GPU-hybird solution as their full answer to Turing dynasty.


Infinity Fabric is only ~50GBps per link, right? GDDR6 is going to be like 400+ GBps. No matter how you look at it, chip-to-chip communication will be grossly slower than communicating with graphics-RAM. The GPU programmers will have to handle it.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:52 pm
by JustAnEngineer
https://www.techpowerup.com/256422/amd- ... m-of-games
btarunr wrote:
It turns out that AMD's claim of the Radeon RX 5700 XT being faster than the GeForce RTX 2070 wasn't just specific to the odd super-optimized game title, but a whole selection of games, many of which come with GameWorks varnish.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:27 pm
by LostCat
....I should probably stick with my 1070 a while o.o But damn, so tempted...

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:33 pm
by Concupiscence
JustAnEngineer wrote:
https://www.techpowerup.com/256422/amd-radeon-rx-5700-xt-beats-geforce-rtx-2070-in-a-spectrum-of-games
btarunr wrote:
It turns out that AMD's claim of the Radeon RX 5700 XT being faster than the GeForce RTX 2070 wasn't just specific to the odd super-optimized game title, but a whole selection of games, many of which come with GameWorks varnish.


It sounds awesome. I can't rationalize upgrading from a Vega 56 to this, but if I suddenly found myself in the market (and it were available on store shelves just yet), I wouldn't hesitate.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:11 pm
by StuG
Do we suspect a Navi based card which will replace the Radeon VII as the crown jewel of the line up or will the Radeon VII with its shrink down to 7nm be their top card until the series after the 5700XT? Thoughts?

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:24 pm
by LostCat
StuG wrote:
Do we suspect a Navi based card which will replace the Radeon VII as the crown jewel of the line up or will the Radeon VII with its shrink down to 7nm be their top card until the series after the 5700XT? Thoughts?

I suspect it'll be similar to the original Ryzen launch...other products will trickle in in the next few months. R7 might hold its spot until they clear inventory, but I'd think there should definitely be some higher and lower end Navi cards on the way.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:26 pm
by Krogoth
StuG wrote:
Do we suspect a Navi based card which will replace the Radeon VII as the crown jewel of the line up or will the Radeon VII with its shrink down to 7nm be their top card until the series after the 5700XT? Thoughts?


Very unlikely. Navi was designed for the semi-custom and iGPU market first and foremost. The desktop GPUs are just meant to be Polaris replacements to help recoup some R&D cost. AMD RTG will go with post-Navi design for their next attempt at high-end GPU solution (most likely GPGPU focused though like Vega).

AMD RTG simply has little or no incentive to go with a high-end solution when their past several attempts where flops or mixed bags. It is unlikely Nvidia will pull another Fermi/FX debacle for an opening to AMD RTG to advantage of.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:34 pm
by Waco
I wouldn't expect a RVII replacement for a while - it competes well enough with the 2080 in gaming and slaughters it in anything compute. It was a "free" development since it's basically a neutered Instinct card. "Big" Navi, if it is a thing, is probably not happening this year.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:09 am
by Krogoth
Waco wrote:
I wouldn't expect a RVII replacement for a while - it competes well enough with the 2080 in gaming and slaughters it in anything compute. It was a "free" development since it's basically a neutered Instinct card. "Big" Navi, if it is a thing, is probably not happening this year.


Radeon VII destroys anything in its price range in general compute stuff. You have spend several times more to get significant better performance. It is a hell of a bargain for GPGPU enthusiast. ;)

Radeon VII is also very good at video content creation at extreme resolutions due to its 16GiB of VRAM. You have to spend much more to get that much VRAM elsewhere.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:40 pm
by The Egg
With all the BS cryptocurrencies rising in value again, let’s just hope these cards are available at a reasonable price. I really need to upgrade my 4-year-old GTX 970.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:03 am
by JustAnEngineer
https://www.techpowerup.com/256891/leak ... e-rtx-2070
Radeon RX 5700XT matches GeForce RTX2070 in 3DMark.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:33 am
by Krogoth
While the upcoming 2070 Super (binned TU104) will most likely outpace the 5700XT.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:23 pm
by The Egg
2070 - ~$480
5700 XT - $450 Launch

2060 - ~$330
5700 - $380 Launch

Assuming roughly equal performance, the 5700 XT looks to be properly priced versus the competition. NVidia dropping a premium 2070 variant over-the-top sounds likely, but it only really makes things interesting if it comes in under $550 and/or pushes the regular 2070 down.

The vanilla 5700, OTOH, will need to outperform the 2060 by a measurable amount across the board to be worth the extra 50 bucks. I'll be watching closely, as this is the card more in my range. Normally I'd wait a bit, but the surging craptocoins has me skittish. The old GTX 970 is painfully long-in-tooth at 1440p.

Considering these cards top out at $450, it sounds like Big Navi will be too expensive to be meaningful to most. Certainly for me.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:52 am
by Fonbu
With the rumor of the Nvidia Super RTX gpu's release, on July 2. and AMD's on July 7.
AMD may have to re-adjust the sale price of these cards, even before their official release.
This competition is great stuff!

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:59 am
by LostCat
Fonbu wrote:
With the rumor of the Nvidia Super RTX gpu's release, on July 2. and AMD's on July 7.
AMD may have to re-adjust the sale price of these cards, even before their official release.
This competition is great stuff!

NV is likely to undercut AMD (they've done this before) but not enough to force AMD to change prices.

I think the launch prices assume another mining craze or something such, after that AMD has been pretty good about adjusting prices downward. But we'll see.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:47 am
by Freon
HBM always seemed like a bandaid to the fact they couldn't keep up with Nvidia's caching and tiling architecture since Maxwell. I was surprised to see Pascal make even more substantial leaps in how much performance they could extract from what memory bandwidth was available. AMD seems to continue with 6xx Kepler era memory bandwidth efficiency through Vega. So much of the past ~7-8 years AMD has had to field 384 and 512bit buses to compete with Nvidia with 256bit buses and roughly the same clock with conventional on-board memory. I can only imagine how much more profit Nvidia was getting on their parts when they could handily compete or beat AMD with 50-60% of the bandwidth. It seems like it could never be sustainable.

As a consumer I'm all for competition here, but the analyst in me says Nvidia seems to have plenty of profit in reserve to shift pricing and maintain market share. The Super cards seem like a "good enough" solution from Nvidia's perspective to avoid having to shift their prior non-Super lineup down a tier to compete with Navi. I'd guess they could still cut pricing $100-200 from the 2060-2080 Ti and still be profitable, which probably means even if Navi 2.0 came out tomorrow with another 15% efficiency gain Nvidia can maintain marketshare. It's going to take another couple of pushes for AMD to catch up on the core engineering.

I'll try to remain cautiously optimistic AMD has some tricks up their sleeve in some other arena, like the rumored ray-tracing to shader core patent, meaning they can do RT at a somewhat competitive rate but without decided die space. That die space for NV is substantial, and I think left the door open a bit here. Interesting play by NV to try to use their lead to jam a feature moat into their product lineup. Even with a 2080 Ti, RT doesn't hold a ton of interest for me. I *might* try it out for Cyberpunk 2077 when it comes out, but so far it seems like a bad trade off in performance/quality. HBAO+, cube maps, and other techniques look pretty darn good, or certainly good enough, at a much greater speed. I'm simply not at all blown away with what I see. Neat from a tech demo perspective, but I think still ahead of its time. Given the dedicated die space required it is not clear to me it will make sense even in the next generation or two.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:52 am
by JustAnEngineer
Freon wrote:
NVidia seems to have plenty of profit in reserve to shift pricing and maintain market share. The Super cards seem like a "good enough" solution from Nvidia's perspective to avoid having to shift their prior non-Super lineup down a tier to compete with Navi.
In the case of the GeForce RTX2070SUPER, they've done essentially that. While GeForce RTX2070 uses a Turing 106 GPU, the new GeForce RTX2070SUPER uses a more-crippled version of the larger Turing 104 GPU from the GeForce RTX2080 and GeForce RTX2080SUPER.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:28 am
by JustAnEngineer
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-vYu89W4AAl2xw.jpg
Radeon RX 5700: $349
Radeon RX 5700XT: $399

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:38 am
by ptsant
JustAnEngineer wrote:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-vYu89W4AAl2xw.jpg
Radeon RX 5700: $349
Radeon RX 5700XT: $399


$350 is a price I can stomach. This looks like a good deal for people who can't afford the new normal of $500 midrange GPUs.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:47 am
by DancinJack
ptsant wrote:
$350 is a price I can stomach. This looks like a good deal for people who can't afford the new normal of $500 midrange GPUs.

Image
Image
Image

If >30 FPS @ 4K is what we're calling "midrange" now, then well, I'm very confused. I am however very pleased that prices in some cases are going down.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:13 pm
by ptsant
DancinJack wrote:
ptsant wrote:
$350 is a price I can stomach. This looks like a good deal for people who can't afford the new normal of $500 midrange GPUs.

If >30 FPS @ 4K is what we're calling "midrange" now, then well, I'm very confused. I am however very pleased that prices in some cases are going down.


If I remember correctly, the most popular resolution for readers of this site was 1440p. I'm certainly filthy rich compared with some hundred million Chinese and Indians, but the fact is that where I live the #1 selling CPU in the biggest e-shop is the 9900K and the #1 selling GPU is the Asus 2080 Ti. So there's also that.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:32 pm
by Chrispy_
ptsant wrote:
where I live the #1 selling CPU in the biggest e-shop is the 9900K and the #1 selling GPU is the Asus 2080 Ti. So there's also that.


Christ, there's one born every minute.
You can't seriously believe what the e-shop tells you is 'trending' or 'best-selling'. It's quite the opposite of impartial advice and far from true.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:35 pm
by Freon
ptsant wrote:
the fact is that where I live the #1 selling CPU in the biggest e-shop is the 9900K and the #1 selling GPU is the Asus 2080 Ti. So there's also that.


You're going to go gray early if you spend your life arguing on the internet with cherry picked facts.

https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:57 pm
by The Egg
So NVidia responds to the imminent launch of what appears to be halfway decent cards by effectively shifting their entire lineup down 1 full tier in price (the "Super" cards all roughly match the cards which were previously $100-200 above them). AMD responds by shifting their launch price down about a half-tier so they fall-in properly.

Mid-High videocards just went down across the board by $100-200. Crazy how a little competition can do that.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:46 pm
by Topinio
ptsant wrote:
If I remember correctly, the most popular resolution for readers of this site was 1440p. I'm certainly filthy rich compared with some hundred million Chinese and Indians, but the fact is that where I live the #1 selling CPU in the biggest e-shop is the 9900K and the #1 selling GPU is the Asus 2080 Ti. So there's also that.
Nah mate.

Anyway, according to this, I'm in the richest couple of percent of the world population, and I guess most of us here are if the common resolution is QHD ... and I'm not buying a £1.2k GPU (until inflation makes that reasonable in 15 years). I reckon most of us have gone for <$400 (pre-tax) GPU's, and plenty are <$250 actually.

Re: AMD Navi / RDNA Topic

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:49 pm
by JustAnEngineer
The Egg wrote:
Mid-High video cards just went down across the board by $100-200. Crazy how a little competition can do that.
This is the reason that we should all continue to root for underdog AMD to continue to compete in both of their markets, even if we end up buying from the competition. Intel cut desktop processor prices by 15% in response to the launch of the new Ryzen CPUs.