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b3n113
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Wed May 26, 2004 12:34 am

heh, but there's no instant satisfaction in not buying it RIGHT NOW!
 
Starfalcon
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Wed May 26, 2004 1:53 am

Either way you will get a decent card, it all just comes down to how long you are willing to wait before plunking down your hard earned money. If you want it now, go ATI...if not, wait for NV to get their act in order.
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Brap
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nVidia

Wed May 26, 2004 6:39 am

Well nVidia is competing to 2 year old hard- and software,and still has problems to keep ahead in several benchies.

Another thing is that the act of despiration,isn't it strange that they don't say: HEY WE GOT THIS GREAT DIAMOND,but they say LOOK, OUR COMPETITION HAS A ROCK!

nVidia believes,at least wants us make believe ATI got iffy drivers,hmmmm I just say FUTUREMARK,DX9 and MS and John Carmack...

They most have gotten frustrated by not getting their stuff working like the FX card.

nVidia just gotten some respect back from me with their 6800 card,and I believe that might be a great card but as far as respect for the company we're back to square one.

nVidia marketing strategy is low,they IMO are hurting themselves acting like crumbs as they do now (and did to KYRO as well).
If it works,I might buy one...
 
Wintermane
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Wed May 26, 2004 7:47 am

Its a simple internal ra ra speech every company has em most just happen to be soo boring no one cares.

As for what it says......

Yes ati definetly got a tad stressed by this last gen. One could look at it as the fact ati couldnt manage to BOTH keep performance up and get 3.0 while nvidia managed it. Did ati want 3.0... DUH! In fact I woudnt be shocked if it HAD it but that it dosnt work.. or has anyone else wondered why a part with FAR more transistors is only 5-10% bigger in chip area?

Yes ati was doing some interesting hoodo with the filtering and yes its definetly ticked off some reviewers and rightly so.

Ad yes all the different speed rates of the reviewe samples did in fact tick off some reviewers and that VERY rightly so.
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Krogoth
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Wed May 26, 2004 8:32 am

Buub wrote:
Krogoth255 wrote:
You cannot directly buy a 6800 Ultra Extreme, they are exclusively available only for high-end systems for Voodoo PC, Northwest Falcon and Alienware.


I don't believe that is true. There are three manufacturers who have the opportunity to make them. Only Gainward is going to be able to deliver in the short term because they put together that cool water-cooled system. The other two are air-cooled, and apparantly can't get enough chips that will run at that speed with air cooling.

This is from either El'Reg or The Inq, don't remember which.


Here's my source for the 6800 Ultra Extreme from this website
TR X800 Review wrote:
The "Extreme" cards will be sold in systems made by select high-end PC builders like VoodooPC and Falcon Northwest, and through card makers like Gainward and XFX. I don't have an official list of those partners just yet, but NVIDIA says to expect announcements at E3. Perhaps then we'll learn more about what these puppies will cost, as well. These cards should be available in June in whatever quantities NVIDIA and its partners can muster.
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Forge
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Wed May 26, 2004 5:11 pm

by select high-end PC builders like VoodooPC and Falcon Northwest, and through card makers like Gainward and XFX.



The key word here is 'and'. From OEMs AND card makers.

(And totally OT: 2000 posts ago I was 1337. :) )
 
Splinter
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Re: nVidia

Wed May 26, 2004 6:05 pm

Brap wrote:
Another thing is that the act of despiration,isn't it strange that they don't say: HEY WE GOT THIS GREAT DIAMOND,but they say LOOK, OUR COMPETITION HAS A ROCK!



lol, for some reason that reminded me of Coke and pepsi.

Coke: Hey guys! Coke is great! Drink coke!
Pepsi: Hey, Coke sucks, Britney Spears doesn't drink Coke.
So how fast is your car, anyway?

Oh, about 1200mhz.
 
Brap
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Re: nVidia

Wed May 26, 2004 8:14 pm

Splinter wrote:
Brap wrote:
Another thing is that the act of despiration,isn't it strange that they don't say: HEY WE GOT THIS GREAT DIAMOND,but they say LOOK, OUR COMPETITION HAS A ROCK!



lol, for some reason that reminded me of Coke and pepsi.

Coke: Hey guys! Coke is great! Drink coke!
Pepsi: Hey, Coke sucks, Britney Spears doesn't drink Coke.


:P That's exactly what I mean Splinter.
If it works,I might buy one...
 
Brap
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Wed May 26, 2004 8:27 pm

Forge wrote:
Pfeh at more guess release dates.

Last one I heard that I trusted said 'end of May', and that one's rapidly passing.

I stick by my statement. If I have my paycheck in hand, and I can't order a GF6800U, then I'll take the X800 Pro. I need to get my frag on.


IMO they are both good cards (X800 and 6800 whatever version),but for now the X800 has proven itself,the 6800 has a lot of potential but nVidia is now at where ATI was with its 8500 card shaders 1.1 to 1.4 /2.0 to 3.0.

It simply depends wether developers do something with the potential of the available (6800 available?) hardware.

I like ATI (got a 9800pro now and I had the TNT,GF2 GTS and TI4200 as well,I just bring it up b4 I got called ATI-fanboy again :)).

I'd buy the X800 in a heartbeat,with a 6800 next to it on the shelve.
If it works,I might buy one...
 
emkubed
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Wed May 26, 2004 8:33 pm

My .02 is simple. I look at what ATI did with supposedly "old, last gen" hardware. It's generally better on power, cooling, performance. Hell, if they did piggyback on last year's tech to make such a nice card, kudos to them. I'll bet they saved a lot of money on R&D, and will profit more from the x800 series. Good for them.

The last Nvidia card I used in my hoome rig was a Diamond TNT2 Ultra. What a card.. I used it until the Radeon 8500/Geforce ti4200 days. If it weren't for the artifacts it started to generate, I'd probably still have it in a PC somewhere. I have a 9700 Pro now, and will probably hang onto it until next year when this Fall's "Ultras" are more affordable.
 
JustAnEngineer
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Wed May 26, 2004 8:34 pm

FWIW, Best Buy is now taking pre-orders on the X800 XT, to be delivered June 4.
 
Tribune
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Thu May 27, 2004 12:37 pm

ok so envid was beaten by ati last time round just a recap ignoring memory speeds.

NV = 475 core, Ati = 412 core - ATI wins it, what a piece of good engineering.

so this time round nvid redesign the chip and produce a core running at 400 which has new toys ati dont have.
ati swaps to the same size manufacturing process as nvid, which is claimed can increase the core speed by 100mhz just by going to .13 tech.

So the first card they produce runs at 525 ish thats a 110mhz increase, suspect that they waited to see what nvid produced first,
and leaves me wondering how far they can improve the performance as time goes on.
remembering that nvid used same technology in the old cards and only managed 475ish from the core
- perhaps the transistor count has a large impact on core speed.

next envid old card ran at 475mhz using the .13 technology compared to new ati at 525 on .13 (all looking good for ati at the moment).
but the old envid card had more transistors so perhaps that accounts for the slower core. that makes the new 220mil tran 6800 even slower core,
even better for ATI.

as nvid have had the bottle to step up the transistor count to 220mil by implementing shader3 at cost of 60 mil transistors.
which appears to have a negative impact on the core speed 400-450 (assuming nvid released the 6800 card maxed out).
However consider they already now the cost and implications and assumedly have planned for it.
i predict an nvid move to smaller than .13 tech soon if they are to make any cash. At which point ATI will be left behind.
 
Tribune
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Thu May 27, 2004 12:43 pm

ok thought some more.

if nvid card running at 400mhz is slighly beaten by ati 525mhz running older Shader2, most folks know that developers can write for shader3,
and just let shader2 cards suffer and have the most attractive graphics. but they probably wont. so they have to re-write code specifically for the older hardware
That senario is not going to last very long especially if we keep pressuring developers for software now rather than later.

so now we have a situation where ATI are using old hardware to fill the coffers so they can produce a totally new GPU and sort a move to smaller than .13 tech, meanwhile the game moves on.

I for 1 would like to challange the hardware boys to chill a 6800 so that it runs at 525 core to negate the pain of all that shader3 hardware and run say `farcry` against a X800 so they are both on an equal footing and see who wins this round with current software. my money would be on the 6800 as the best piece of harware.

i personally am investing in a 200W fridge for my CPU as i am sure i will need a 4gig+ AMD to feed 220mil transistor GPU with all the CPU happy physics going into new games, that goes for ATI when they release a shader3 GPU and some good drivers.
 
Tribune
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Thu May 27, 2004 1:27 pm

or perhaps it would be easier to clock a X800 down to 400mhz for a direct comparison of the hardware abilities on the current software. O yes that would be a blatant loss for the ATI otherwise they would have released there card at 400mhz, Silly me excluding the shader3 the Env would savage the ATI at 400mhz, so what hardware is worth investing in for the new top games?

Sorry just find it slightly frustrating all the BS about what card is best when it seems obvious, unless u want to change your new X800 before christmas.

Tribune.
 
Forge
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Thu May 27, 2004 3:01 pm

Can you condense that rambling into one post and try to phrase it better?

I currently have no idea what you were mumbling about.
 
random gerbil
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Thu May 27, 2004 3:56 pm

Tribune wrote:
I for 1 would like to challange the hardware boys to chill a 6800 so that it runs at 525 core to negate the pain of all that shader3 hardware and run say `farcry` against a X800 so they are both on an equal footing and see who wins this round with current software. my money would be on the 6800 as the best piece of harware.


Well then that would not be fair to ATI, since they are able to get their silicon working at such high speeds in the first place (with less heat and power consumption overall than the NVidia card) whereas NVidia can not. These are the best that each company can offer at stock speeds, and as such comparisons between the two are on an even footing as no one is attempting to cripple or favor one over the other. If you are going to massively overclock one, then you have to massively overclock the other. Then you have an even comparison again. And its likely that ATI will still be ahead, imo. It isnt a question of who is better clock for clock, but who is better on the whole, regardless of individual clock speeds.
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Buub
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Thu May 27, 2004 4:43 pm

Forge wrote:
Can you condense that rambling into one post and try to phrase it better?

I currently have no idea what you were mumbling about.


Heh, glad I'm not alone...
 
Buub
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Thu May 27, 2004 4:45 pm

Let's not forget that sometimes these things go hand-in-hand. Many times, as in the P4/Athlon case, the architecture is less efficient because it can run so fast (P4), on the other hand, sometimes the architecture is incapable of running fast because it uses more complex instructions to be more efficient (Athlon).

I.e. the Athlon engineers are not losers because they can't scale the Athlon as fast as a P4. It doesn't scale that high because of its higher IPC.

I suspect there may be a similar effect in play here. Certainly the almost equal performance indicates that may be the case.
 
Tribune
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Thu May 27, 2004 4:57 pm

i am just trying to speculate that the extra 60 mil transistors for shader3 has forced a lower clock, urgo if you use a benchmark that does not use the hardware of shader3 and clock the cards the same. the best hardware would show its self. just for those ppl who want to know who has the most skill when designing a GPU.

Afterall ATI will also have the same problem when/if they implement a shader3 GPU.

and may also be shoddy when it comes to writing drivers for new hardware in such a short timeframe.

Trib. (the apparent mumbler). perhaps if u think a little quicker i wont have to slow down for ya.
 
Buub
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Thu May 27, 2004 5:21 pm

It seems to me that the extra transistors are not just for shader 3.0. In the ATI interview, the guy comes up, several times, the claim that the nVidia chips are more complex, hence harder, to program. It sounds to me like he's saying that they have too many configurable options, and ATI strips that down to make the core easier to use.

Those extra options, that extra complexity, must become useful in some context, because of the dominance of the Quadro in workstation graphics.

But really, who knows... just a theory. :-)
 
Tribune
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Thu May 27, 2004 6:05 pm

I agree they are more complex as the 5950 had more transistors than the ATI 9800, but yet it still lost out in the performace stakes - i just cant see the logic in creating such a thing unless it is faster, why make something that costs more to develop and manufacture when u know the competition.

Unless they are planning ahead, if so then the low core speed may be to drag out the upgrades until next gen card
if that speculation holds true and the ati GPU is running same .13 tech as the old nvid but at 512mhz (475hmz for 5950 nvid as it was more complex). I cannot see what room they have to improve the new X800, and they dont have shader3

Trib.
 
Pete
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Thu May 27, 2004 7:31 pm

Far be it for me to tell you what to do with your money, Forge, but if you can wait a month, I'd pony up for a $460 X800XT. If you can wait a week or two and can afford $550 (and can spare the extra molex), a 6800U looks fairly tempting (and is shipping now, according to nVidia).

If you must buy now, I suppose a X800P is your only option. Not a bad one, for sure, but a XT's extra pipes and higher clocks seem mighty attractive for DX9 games for only $100 more. Still, the X800P is new enough that you could probably buy now and resell in a few months without much loss.
 
Forge
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Thu May 27, 2004 8:17 pm

I saw the 313398 (PNY 6800U) come into the system yesterday, I have someone keeping an eye on it. I get paid tomorrow, and I'll probably plunk down my cash and try to get it ordered then... But if I get an email telling me my order has been delayed, I'm not sure what I'd do at that point.

We'll see.
 
getbornagain
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Fri May 28, 2004 3:19 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
FWIW, Best Buy is now taking pre-orders on the X800 XT, to be delivered June 4.


so ATi wasn't too far off on their late may xt arrivial
 
getbornagain
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Fri May 28, 2004 3:20 pm

Forge wrote:
I saw the 313398 (PNY 6800U) come into the system yesterday, I have someone keeping an eye on it. I get paid tomorrow, and I'll probably plunk down my cash and try to get it ordered then... But if I get an email telling me my order has been delayed, I'm not sure what I'd do at that point.

We'll see.


i say give me the money and the card, and then you won't have to worry about this decision...see we'd both be happy :D
 
Forge
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Fri May 28, 2004 10:56 pm

It's ordered. Now I just wait to see if and when CompUsa ships.
 
OsakaJ
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Sat May 29, 2004 12:21 am

JustAnEngineer wrote:
FWIW, Best Buy is now taking pre-orders on the X800 XT, to be delivered June 4.


Where did you see 4 June as a shipping date?
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JustAnEngineer
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Sat May 29, 2004 1:30 am

June 4 delivery was on the stickers on the empty ATI Radeon X800XT boxes for pre-order at my local Best Buy store. I believe that they're also throwing in a tee shirt and a coupon for $$ off any TV-wonder card.
 
rika13
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Sat May 29, 2004 2:12 am

the extra transisitors arent JUST sm 3.0 support, its a few things; sm3.0 (duh), the video processor, ati doesnt count ALL transistors (just logic), differences in gate level logic of the caches and mem controller (dram vs sram cache)

nvidia chips are more complex, but not harder to program for, dx is dx opengl is opengl; optimizing the code for speed is more complex, but not something that any decent programmer would have trouble with (leaves valve out), truform didnt make everything harder on ati hardware

nv35 did have more clock than r360, but r360 had 8 pipes whist nv35 had four, for nvidia to do what they did means they had the better pipes

ati did have a sm3.0 design (ever wonder why r420? r400 was the sm3.0 part) and scrapped it for some 9600xt's (which were 500MHz) welded together (they bought some software from cadence that lets them reuse old tech with impunity)

as for new software now, we've all felt the pain it causes, its called windows, rushed, half-done software is crap, the person who thinks of rushing something big like a game engine or an OS needs to shot

nvidia has done things ati would never do, DVC is sorely missed in my 9800pro, as is the better control panel, non-whql drivers (no wait for m$) and the dual clocks for 2d and 3d (oc some of the time, not all the time)
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Rakhmaninov3
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Sat May 29, 2004 3:37 am

Buub wrote:
Re: highest-end cards costing too much
You can't completely blame them. They wouldn't make these expensive high-end cards if people didn't continually demand more performance at any cost. If those cards didn't sell, ATI and nVidia wouldn't be making them.

And I hate to break it to some people (not picking on you FroBozz, just a general sentiment), but the $400-$500 cards cost that much because they cost a lot to make. The biggest cost is the very high-speed RAM. All by itself, slower RAM will bring down those video card prices. Also, in some cases, the highest-end card requires a more sophisticated (more layers) circuit board to handle the super-high speeds, which is also more expensive. Plus let's not forget that they have to cherry-pick their very best cores, and need to recoup design and fab costs with them.

I'm not saying they're not making a good profit on these, because obviously they would be stupid not to. But, the cost isn't entirely artificial. Those highest-end cards cost a lot more to make.


That's not to mention the massive R&D costs that go into boards like these--paying all those engineers and scientists and secretaries and bills adds up to a huge amount that has to be passed on to the consumer.

It's the same thing as with retaurants--the actual foodstuff makes up fewer than 30% of the average restaurant's costs; the rest goes into labor, insurance, energy and water bills, equipment maintenance, equipment purchases....you get the idea. Why it kinda annoys me when I hear about people complaining about how much food costs at a restaurant because "the food isn't that expensive."
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