Personal computing discussed

Moderators: renee, Dposcorp

 
localhostrulez
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2481
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:26 pm

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Sun May 08, 2016 8:18 pm

You know, speaking of old CNC machines and the accompanying software... imagine if cars on the road were all smart. And keep in mind what smartphones looked like in 2005 (the iPhone came out in 2007). Yet most of those cars are still on the road, driving quite happily, with many years ahead of them. Man, what a mess that would be... and I worry that some newer cars might be headed that way.

Makes me wonder what would happen if stuff were standardized a bit more/stop changing the damned thing every few years. The job hasn't changed/the equipment is built to last, so the same CNC machine (or car) is in service decades later, but the accompanying software can't deal with that.
 
NovusBogus
Graphmaster Gerbil
Posts: 1408
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:37 am

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Sun May 08, 2016 11:22 pm

whm1974 wrote:
As I said before, I'm referring to PCs not embedded. And there is no reason why tablets can't be 64-bit.

My day-job embedded product runs 32 bit Fedora on either an Atom SBC with 1GB RAM or a truly ancient AT box that may literally be a 486 sibling. Yes, we shipped Fedora because we're hardcore like that. So how exactly do you plan to distinguish between PC and embedded applications, again?
 
cheesyking
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2756
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:52 am
Location: That London (or so I'm told)
Contact:

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Mon May 09, 2016 4:51 am

localhostrulez wrote:
You know, speaking of old CNC machines and the accompanying software... imagine if cars on the road were all smart. And keep in mind what smartphones looked like in 2005 (the iPhone came out in 2007). Yet most of those cars are still on the road, driving quite happily, with many years ahead of them. Man, what a mess that would be... and I worry that some newer cars might be headed that way.


Yeah I think pretty much all car makers have already show they don't have the faintest idea how to make computer systems:

- Keyless entry / start has allowed thousands of cars to be stolen.

- Companion phone apps have been found to be massively insecure (EG Nissan only using the VIN number to authenticate connections)

- Internet connected cars being hacked into.


Plus a lot of the electronics on modern cars is just duplicating what we're already carrying around on our phones anyway. Why would I want a crap, slow, poorly updated satnav system built into my car when I've already got something better in my pocket. The life cycle for electronic gadgets like phones and tablets is somewhere between 2-4 years. The life cycle for cars should be somewhere between 10-20 years so it doesn't make any sense to fill a car with stuff unless you're a car maker hoping to sell more cars.
Fernando!
Your mother ate my dog!
 
just brew it!
Administrator
Posts: 54500
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Mon May 09, 2016 5:54 am

Flatland_Spider wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
On the Windows side of the house, cutting backwards compatibility means a lot of legacy third-party software just ceases to function.

So a bunch of unmaintained software would stop working, and companies would be forced to migrate to something this is supported? That would be beautiful, and it may be my new happy place. :D

...and if the software is mission critical and has no supported equivalent (say, the developer has gone out of business), what then?

Flatland_Spider wrote:
I've seen it with Linux too. A business built a critical piece of infrastructure on top of Fedora Core 2, and they never bothered to think about what happens when it needs to be upgraded. Consequently, eleven years after supported ended for FC2, the stupid thing is still in production, and they can't replace it without lots of downtime. They're not to worried about it, so they keep running it.

At that point, it is really more of an appliance anyway. As long as it is not directly exposed to the Internet I don't see a big issue with this.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
whm1974
Emperor Gerbilius I
Topic Author
Posts: 6361
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:29 am

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Mon May 09, 2016 5:59 am

But what about finding people to who know how to use old systems? I have long forgotten how to use DOS myself.
 
just brew it!
Administrator
Posts: 54500
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Mon May 09, 2016 6:06 am

whm1974 wrote:
But what about finding people to who know how to use old systems? I have long forgotten how to use DOS myself.

If it is being used for a mission critical business function, then obviously someone in the business knows how to use it.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Ikepuska
Gerbil First Class
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:53 pm

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Mon May 09, 2016 7:37 am

just brew it! wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
But what about finding people to who know how to use old systems? I have long forgotten how to use DOS myself.

If it is being used for a mission critical business function, then obviously someone in the business knows how to use it.


And when that person retires, sometimes the ROI for bringing in someone to recreate or replace the widget suddenly makes a whole lot more sense. And if they aren't totally clueless a really really robust documentation clause will be part of the SOW.
 
srg86
Gerbil Team Leader
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:57 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Mon May 09, 2016 7:50 am

just brew it! wrote:
As an aside, it's actually interesting that I could run the current Debian Stable (Jessie) if I decided to resurrect my old K6-III+. :wink:


I actually *DO* run Debian Stable (Jessie) on my old K6-III+. That machine also runs Pentiums all the way down to 133MHz. I think it's a shame, it'll be stuck there I guess.

Oh and though these aren't for desktop use, Intel still makes and sells 32-bit only CPUs (Quark).
Intel Core i7 4790K, Z97, 16GB RAM, 128GB m4 SSD, 480GB M500 SSD, 500GB WD Vel, Intel HD4600, Corsair HX650, Fedora x64.
Thinkpad T460p, Intel Core i5 6440HQ, 8GB RAM, 512GB SSD, Intel HD 530 IGP, Fedora x64, Win 10 x64.
 
bthylafh
Maximum Gerbil
Posts: 4320
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:55 pm
Location: Southwest Missouri, USA

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Mon May 09, 2016 8:11 am

just brew it! wrote:
As an aside, it's actually interesting that I could run the current Debian Stable (Jessie) if I decided to resurrect my old K6-III+. :wink:


But not the next version. Debian just announced that 32-bit x86 builds will require at least i686 compatibility in the future, and the K6-III+ doesn't qualify.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-a ... 00001.html
Hakkaa päälle!
i7-8700K|Asus Z-370 Pro|32GB DDR4|Asus Radeon RX-580|Samsung 960 EVO 1TB|1988 Model M||Logitech MX 518 & F310|Samsung C24FG70|Dell 2209WA|ATH-M50x
 
Deanjo
Graphmaster Gerbil
Posts: 1212
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Mon May 09, 2016 8:20 am

just brew it! wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
But what about finding people to who know how to use old systems? I have long forgotten how to use DOS myself.

If it is being used for a mission critical business function, then obviously someone in the business knows how to use it.


I wouldn't say that. I know of a bunch of small businesses running discontinued software on ancient hardware where if the system goes down, they're screwed. Heck for a few years in the late 90's I used to maintain an ILS system for a small airport that was ran by a Trash 80. I was pretty much the only one around that used to be able to fix it. Only when I was leaving the area, only then could they be convinced that they needed to upgrade their system and that didn't happen for another three years.
 
Concupiscence
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 709
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:58 am
Location: Dallas area, Texas, USA
Contact:

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Mon May 09, 2016 8:27 am

bthylafh wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
As an aside, it's actually interesting that I could run the current Debian Stable (Jessie) if I decided to resurrect my old K6-III+. :wink:


But not the next version. Debian just announced that 32-bit x86 builds will require at least i686 compatibility in the future, and the K6-III+ doesn't qualify.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-a ... 00001.html


Aww, hamburgers. I was beginning to think they'd keep i486 compatibility around forever. At least there's still Slackware...
Science: Core i9 7940x, 64 gigs RAM, Vega FE, Xubuntu 20.04
Work: Ryzen 5 3600, 32 gigs RAM, Radeon RX 580, Win10 Pro
Tinker: Core i5 2400, 8 gigs RAM, Radeon R9 280x, Xubuntu 20.04 + MS-DOS 7.10

Read me at https://www.wallabyjones.com/
 
srg86
Gerbil Team Leader
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:57 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Mon May 09, 2016 8:33 am

Concupiscence wrote:
bthylafh wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
As an aside, it's actually interesting that I could run the current Debian Stable (Jessie) if I decided to resurrect my old K6-III+. :wink:


But not the next version. Debian just announced that 32-bit x86 builds will require at least i686 compatibility in the future, and the K6-III+ doesn't qualify.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-a ... 00001.html


Aww, hamburgers. I was beginning to think they'd keep i486 compatibility around forever. At least there's still Slackware...


Cool, maybe I'll switch my i586 machine to Slackware. I might even attempt a non-X based install on my 486, just for fun.
Intel Core i7 4790K, Z97, 16GB RAM, 128GB m4 SSD, 480GB M500 SSD, 500GB WD Vel, Intel HD4600, Corsair HX650, Fedora x64.
Thinkpad T460p, Intel Core i5 6440HQ, 8GB RAM, 512GB SSD, Intel HD 530 IGP, Fedora x64, Win 10 x64.
 
just brew it!
Administrator
Posts: 54500
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Mon May 09, 2016 8:37 am

srg86 wrote:
Cool, maybe I'll switch my i586 machine to Slackware. I might even attempt a non-X based install on my 486, just for fun.

You may not have a choice. I think a modern GUI on a 486 would be exceedingly painful (if it'll even fit into RAM).
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Concupiscence
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 709
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:58 am
Location: Dallas area, Texas, USA
Contact:

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Mon May 09, 2016 8:40 am

just brew it! wrote:
srg86 wrote:
Cool, maybe I'll switch my i586 machine to Slackware. I might even attempt a non-X based install on my 486, just for fun.

You may not have a choice. I think a modern GUI on a 486 would be exceedingly painful (if it'll even fit into RAM).


Modern, yeah, though Slackware still ships with blackbox and twm...
Science: Core i9 7940x, 64 gigs RAM, Vega FE, Xubuntu 20.04
Work: Ryzen 5 3600, 32 gigs RAM, Radeon RX 580, Win10 Pro
Tinker: Core i5 2400, 8 gigs RAM, Radeon R9 280x, Xubuntu 20.04 + MS-DOS 7.10

Read me at https://www.wallabyjones.com/
 
Deanjo
Graphmaster Gerbil
Posts: 1212
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Mon May 09, 2016 8:40 am

just brew it! wrote:
srg86 wrote:
Cool, maybe I'll switch my i586 machine to Slackware. I might even attempt a non-X based install on my 486, just for fun.

You may not have a choice. I think a modern GUI on a 486 would be exceedingly painful (if it'll even fit into RAM).


Pffft, Tandy Deskmate ran on an 8088! :D
 
just brew it!
Administrator
Posts: 54500
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Mon May 09, 2016 9:19 am

Deanjo wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
srg86 wrote:
Cool, maybe I'll switch my i586 machine to Slackware. I might even attempt a non-X based install on my 486, just for fun.

You may not have a choice. I think a modern GUI on a 486 would be exceedingly painful (if it'll even fit into RAM).

Pffft, Tandy Deskmate ran on an 8088! :D

I did say "modern". :wink:
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
notfred
Maximum Gerbil
Posts: 4610
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:10 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Mon May 09, 2016 9:31 am

I ran in to a similar thing at work recently. The advantage of not supporting old processors is that then you can turn on all kinds of fancy compiler options and the code can make use of things like SSE etc to really make it fly. However we still have some space customers using rad hardened parts and those are back on Pentium class processors.

One alternative is to make code detect the processor capabilities and then use the new stuff if it is there. This is extra development effort but the major hurt comes in testing where you have just made a multiplier to your test effort.

Desktop, server stuff should be 64bit all the way. I'm not surprised Google turned off 32 bit Chrome, I wonder how long Linux will continue to support 32 bit? Embedded is a different matter and 32 bit will be around for a while, but with aarch64 coming on strong I think you'll see phones and tablets going 64 bit soon.

Windows great strength has been its backwards compatibility, it was slow to go to 64 bit in comparison to Linux and I suspect they will keep 32 bit around for a while.

The size difference in code isn't necessarily as great as some people make it out to be and I've seen some code (not Windows admittedly) where the 64 bit is smaller than the 32 bit - likely more registers mean less switching data between memory and registers, plus the ability to do 64bit math ops natively rather than having to have a little inline function.
 
whm1974
Emperor Gerbilius I
Topic Author
Posts: 6361
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:29 am

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Mon May 09, 2016 4:20 pm

Deanjo wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
But what about finding people to who know how to use old systems? I have long forgotten how to use DOS myself.

If it is being used for a mission critical business function, then obviously someone in the business knows how to use it.


I wouldn't say that. I know of a bunch of small businesses running discontinued software on ancient hardware where if the system goes down, they're screwed. Heck for a few years in the late 90's I used to maintain an ILS system for a small airport that was ran by a Trash 80. I was pretty much the only one around that used to be able to fix it. Only when I was leaving the area, only then could they be convinced that they needed to upgrade their system and that didn't happen for another three years.

I can understand trying to get your money's worth out of costly computer setups, but some people take this to the point of absurdity.
 
Flatland_Spider
Graphmaster Gerbil
Posts: 1324
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:33 pm

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Mon May 09, 2016 8:23 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Flatland_Spider wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
On the Windows side of the house, cutting backwards compatibility means a lot of legacy third-party software just ceases to function.

So a bunch of unmaintained software would stop working, and companies would be forced to migrate to something this is supported? That would be beautiful, and it may be my new happy place. :D

...and if the software is mission critical and has no supported equivalent (say, the developer has gone out of business), what then?


They continue on until the thing dies, they go out of business, and some MBA candidate writes a paper on them, I would guess.

just brew it! wrote:
Flatland_Spider wrote:
I've seen it with Linux too. A business built a critical piece of infrastructure on top of Fedora Core 2, and they never bothered to think about what happens when it needs to be upgraded. Consequently, eleven years after supported ended for FC2, the stupid thing is still in production, and they can't replace it without lots of downtime. They're not to worried about it, so they keep running it.

At that point, it is really more of an appliance anyway. As long as it is not directly exposed to the Internet I don't see a big issue with this.


I don't remember where it was in the chain, but it was pretty close to the edge. I want to say it was a router servicing their webcluster.

whm1974 wrote:
I can understand trying to get your money's worth out of costly computer setups, but some people take this to the point of absurdity.


A home setup is one thing, but running a business on stuff with no upgrade path is negligent.
 
localhostrulez
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2481
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:26 pm

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Tue May 10, 2016 12:37 am

Think about it though - if your car is a little older but running quite well with no signs of stopping, do you replace it just in case anyway? Probably not. That would be a waste of money (well, unless you wanted a new one because it's different/fun/shiny). If your milling machine is a decade or two old but working perfectly fine, you have parts for the machine, etc, why would you replace it?

It's the same story here, the physical equipment was built to last, but software devs are eager to dump legacy stuff/move too fast anyway. (Just imagine running an expensive CNC machine off an Android phone... oops, we rewrote the entire phone OS again, the app's not compatible, time to replace your 4 year old but nice machine.) If you older equipment that works well, you have parts, and you have a bunch of spare NT4 machines to run it, then I think it's fine.
 
just brew it!
Administrator
Posts: 54500
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Tue May 10, 2016 1:04 am

Flatland_Spider wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
At that point, it is really more of an appliance anyway. As long as it is not directly exposed to the Internet I don't see a big issue with this.

I don't remember where it was in the chain, but it was pretty close to the edge. I want to say it was a router servicing their webcluster.

OK, that's somewhat more concerning then. But as long as the box isn't exposing potentially vulnerable applications on the outward-facing interface (e.g. a remote admin interface for the router that may be vulnerable to known exploits), it still doesn't rise to even a DEFCON 4, IMO.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Krogoth
Emperor Gerbilius I
Posts: 6049
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 3:20 pm
Location: somewhere on Core Prime
Contact:

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Tue May 10, 2016 1:05 am

cheesyking wrote:
localhostrulez wrote:
You know, speaking of old CNC machines and the accompanying software... imagine if cars on the road were all smart. And keep in mind what smartphones looked like in 2005 (the iPhone came out in 2007). Yet most of those cars are still on the road, driving quite happily, with many years ahead of them. Man, what a mess that would be... and I worry that some newer cars might be headed that way.


Yeah I think pretty much all car makers have already show they don't have the faintest idea how to make computer systems:

- Keyless entry / start has allowed thousands of cars to be stolen.

- Companion phone apps have been found to be massively insecure (EG Nissan only using the VIN number to authenticate connections)

- Internet connected cars being hacked into.


Plus a lot of the electronics on modern cars is just duplicating what we're already carrying around on our phones anyway. Why would I want a crap, slow, poorly updated satnav system built into my car when I've already got something better in my pocket. The life cycle for electronic gadgets like phones and tablets is somewhere between 2-4 years. The life cycle for cars should be somewhere between 10-20 years so it doesn't make any sense to fill a car with stuff unless you're a car maker hoping to sell more cars.


[rant]It doesn't really make any real sense. A car is meant for transportation. It is not a bloody portable computer. Stupid gimmicks just open more attack vectors and create more points of failure. [/rant]
Gigabyte X670 AORUS-ELITE AX, Raphael 7950X, 2x16GiB of G.Skill TRIDENT DDR5-5600, Sapphire RX 6900XT, Seasonic GX-850 and Fractal Define 7 (W)
Ivy Bridge 3570K, 2x4GiB of G.Skill RIPSAW DDR3-1600, Gigabyte Z77X-UD3H, Corsair CX-750M V2, and PC-7B
 
localhostrulez
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2481
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:26 pm

Re: Let drop 32-bit software please.

Tue May 10, 2016 1:15 am

Krogoth wrote:
[rant]It doesn't really make any real sense. A car is meant for transportation. It is not a bloody portable computer. Stupid gimmicks just open more attack vectors and create more points of failure. [/rant]

But, but... this car has a wifi hotspot built in! (Yes, seriously - apparently the big 3 do this on some cars, but almost no one else does. I forgot about nsync, uconnect, onstar, etc, because I mostly follow foreign makes that don't do this in the first place.) And this car has a phone app that doesn't even work properly now, never mind years down the road.

Like, seriously, do they expect people to replace cars more often to keep the tech up to date? Can people afford that?

For that matter, they say Carplay and Android Auto will be compatible over time, but will they? The smartphone market is so prone to changing (relative to cars) that I just don't trust that, long term.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
GZIP: On