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bthylafh
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:41 pm

ludi wrote:
To be fair, a lot of old software installers broke on later generations of software and hardware because they were written to deal with software or hardware limitations in previous versions, and in some cases they never anticipated that hardware larger than "x" would even be possible. Anyone else remember the history of Windows disk and partition size limitations? Pepperidge Farm remembers.


Objection on one of the listed limitations: you didn't necessarily need a BIOS upgrade to get around the 504MB limit. That was obviously better, but lots of computers didn't have EEPROMs back then so upgrades (if they even existed) would have needed a chip replacement. I had such a computer in the mid '90s and the workaround was to use something like Ontrack Disk Manager.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_Manager

The specific version I had worked fine for Win95 Gold, but lost its little mind when I upgraded to Win98 and FAT32 - went from just a few seconds at the Disk Manager splash screen to several minutes, but it would eventually boot. Bonus: it worked fine for Debian, which I was dual-booting at the time.
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:53 pm

I run quite a few machines with software from a company with a three letter acronym that is one of the last bastions of mainframes.

Some of their installers/updaters are idiotic in their requirements - like requiring local ssh for the database instance user to be enabled even though it's a security risk to do so and their own suggested guidelines have you disable the user for ssh before installing which then causes the hour long upgrade process to break. Some of their other software has patches in the form of executable binaries...that have a fatally flawed extractor that doesn't actually work on most modern *nix distros. Luckily it's just a tar file with an extremely crappy script for the first few hundred lines that you can simply erase and extract with your tool of choice.

Another one of their pieces of software that I love and hate will completely shut down access to any disk storage if it detects even a single EIO. 30 TB disk array with one bad sector? Aww, too bad, someone touched it and now all 30 TB are unavailable. :evil: The day I had to enable "zfs_send_corrupt_data" wasn't a happy one.

Sigh. At least these things are generally avoidable once you know the gotchas, but ugh.
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:03 pm

@Waco - Could be worse. You could be using Lotus IBM Notes. "It's not dead yet!" :wink:
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captaintrav
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:12 pm

just brew it! wrote:
@Waco - Could be worse. You could be using Lotus IBM Notes. "It's not dead yet!" :wink:


We are. And despite promises it's going away, it looks at this point that it will still be around when we migrate to Windows 10.
 
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:15 pm

just brew it! wrote:
@Waco - Could be worse. You could be using Lotus IBM Notes. "It's not dead yet!" :wink:

Noted. :lol: At least the stuff I work with generally functions well once it's up and running. Patching just isn't as easy as it could/should be.
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:25 pm

I don't know if this is still true to this day, but to install some one-of Oracle patches on Windows you needed a perl interpreter installed, which is a pretty bizarre requirement on Windows, especially for something that essentially just updated a couple of files in the client software.
 
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:30 pm

srg86 wrote:
SuperSpy wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
I remember way back in the day there were some installers that got confused once HDDs got bigger than 4GB. The free space calculation would blow up and no matter how much you had it would think you didn't have enough.

One of the super-old installers (installshield?) used to do a 'system check' of sorts to see if the computer was 'good enough'. It, of course, used 32 bit integers for all the size related data, as well as timing a moderately hard calculation to guess the CPU speed.

Of course, on a desktop with 32 GB of RAM, 1 TB of C: drive space and a modern 4.8 GHz CPU it loses it's mind. The RAM and Disk meters would all report some huge negative number, and the CPU calculation was using the normal Windows ~16 ms 'tick' so it would report the calculation took 0 seconds snowing an infinity MHz CPU. :roll:


I was wondering if this was due to 32-bit integers. The is also the reason why standard AmigaOS (at least as far as 3.1) could not work with hard drives larger than 4GB. There were later patches I think in 3.5 and 3.9 that fixed it, but the versions that came with the actual machines I think had the limit.


What I think a lot of those old programs did was even though the Windows API gave back something like a 64-bit integer, the program would turn around and cast it to a 32-bit integer. Of course it was never found because the hardware didn't exist at the time to uncover the bug, similar to the bug in Windows 95 where the OS would implode if the CPU was faster than ~800 MHz or something.
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:52 pm

Just today, updating a very popular VM program on a machine, it complained it did not have rights to a certain folder within the install folder. Checking the folder showed the folder it wanted to update did not exist. I created the folder, named it to what the program wanted, and it proceeded just fine.
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:17 am

SuperSpy wrote:
similar to the bug in Windows 95 where the OS would implode if the CPU was faster than ~800 MHz or something.


I am suddenly inspired to break out my old Socket 754 and do a project :)
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:38 am

ClickClick5 wrote:
Just today, updating a very popular VM program on a machine, it complained it did not have rights to a certain folder within the install folder. Checking the folder showed the folder it wanted to update did not exist. I created the folder, named it to what the program wanted, and it proceeded just fine.

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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:46 am

Here's one that bugs me: Globus.

We have a pretty fast endpoint here at LANL yet the software design is...just bad. Even though they could easily keep checksums going as transfers run, if you want data verification, Globus instead copies all the files you want from endpoint to endpoint...then re-reads every single bit on both sides to confirm that the data is what it should be.

Why not keep a running checksum on the damn files as you read/write them across the wire? It's not like it does parallelism for a single file anyway, one host *always* has the authoritative answer for a particular file. Bah.

The best you can hope for on a transfer is half the line speed unless you have crazy-fast disks on each side that are well overbuilt for the WAN transfer speed (our connection is 100 Gbps, so we have around 10 GB/s of disk bandwidth).
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captaintrav
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:33 am

One vendor whose software stores its data in a MS Access backend (bad enough already), performs extremely poorly when the .mdb files are hosted over a WAN link with "high" latency -> around 5-6ms. The software vendor's response to our inquiries about why the software performs so poorly (not sure if you should blame Microsoft for making MS Access or the vendor for using it?), is "we don't support storing the data files anywhere but a local disk". Nice enterprise ready software, goof balls. This is engineering modeling/simulation software we're paying something like 10 grand a year for per seat. And officially they don't support networked data stores.
 
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:42 am

captaintrav wrote:
One vendor whose software stores its data in a MS Access backend (bad enough already), performs extremely poorly when the .mdb files are hosted over a WAN link with "high" latency -> around 5-6ms. The software vendor's response to our inquiries about why the software performs so poorly (not sure if you should blame Microsoft for making MS Access or the vendor for using it?), is "we don't support storing the data files anywhere but a local disk". Nice enterprise ready software, goof balls. This is engineering modeling/simulation software we're paying something like 10 grand a year for per seat. And officially they don't support networked data stores.

Welcome to the 1990s, pretty much.

I had a client who insisted that I use Visual SourceSafe over a VPN back in the day. That did not go well either.
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MileageMayVary
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:35 pm

ClickClick5 wrote:
Just today, updating a very popular VM program on a machine, it complained it did not have rights to a certain folder within the install folder. Checking the folder showed the folder it wanted to update did not exist. I created the folder, named it to what the program wanted, and it proceeded just fine.


I have seen this type of thing with various programs over the years.
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just brew it!
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:56 pm

Yeah, installer idiocy is one of the reasons I dread stepping outside the "low hedged garden" (not really a "walled garden", more of a gentle hint that "beyond here there be dragons, proceed at your own risk") of the repos for whatever Linux distro I'm running. If you stay within the official repos, installation generally goes smoothly.

A particularly egregious bad example would be Oracle's VirtualBox packages, which (on certain versions of Ubuntu LTS) would completely hose your X stack, rendering the entire GUI desktop inoperable. (To be fair, this was likely a cooperative Oracle/Canonical f*ckup of sorts, but still...)
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captaintrav
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:59 pm

MileageMayVary wrote:
ClickClick5 wrote:
Just today, updating a very popular VM program on a machine, it complained it did not have rights to a certain folder within the install folder. Checking the folder showed the folder it wanted to update did not exist. I created the folder, named it to what the program wanted, and it proceeded just fine.


I have seen this type of thing with various programs over the years.


I am not a developer, but do a bit of scripting and such to prep software for enterprise deployment. It's a given anything like this should be handled by an "if exist" or "if not exist" type of statement to use antique batch scripting syntax - substitute whatever the equivalent is to your scripting or development environment. This seems so basic but I too have seen it time and time again.
 
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:04 pm

It's since been fixed in newer versions, but at least for 2013 versions of Autodesk *A whole bunch of products*, the installer would refuse to continue if you didn't have .Net 4.5 installed, including if you had 4.6 or newer installed. What moron couldn't fathom that 4.5 might not be the last version of .NET ever? Since of course we have a bunch of other tools tied to AutoCAD version "X" (whichever we're currently stuck on), including some in-house custom software, upgrading versions of AutoCAD is a small project in and of itself. Thankfully, only the installer was brain dead, not the application itself - so I had to do an install script to backup some registry keys, overwrite them to lie and say the machine had .NET 4.5 installed, install AutoCAD, then restore the registry keys to the appropriate value.
 
bthylafh
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:06 pm

There's this one version of the Visual Studio C++ runtime that will drop temporary files in C:\ and then fail to delete them. It's an older one, either 2005 or maybe 2008, and every now and again I run into a program still using that version.
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:18 pm

bthylafh wrote:
There's this one version of the Visual Studio C++ runtime that will drop temporary files in C:\ and then fail to delete them. It's an older one, either 2005 or maybe 2008, and every now and again I run into a program still using that version.


I have those files in the root of c:\ :lol: Also of note, the (admittedly old and obsolete version) App-V installer leaves it's log there, as does the Configuration Manager console installer. Seems a rather dumb place to leave stuff, chalk that up to nothing more than lazy developers. C:\Windows\Logs seems to be a place that by the name would suggest you could log your stuff there. :P
 
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:27 pm

captaintrav wrote:
It's since been fixed in newer versions, but at least for 2013 versions of Autodesk *A whole bunch of products*, the installer would refuse to continue if you didn't have .Net 4.5 installed, including if you had 4.6 or newer installed. What moron couldn't fathom that 4.5 might not be the last version of .NET ever?


But of course by that time everyone will have updated to a newer version of AutoCAD so it won't be a problem.

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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:58 pm

Fortinet's VPN client: If you want to customize the installer for deployment (to bake-in your site's configuration) I'm told by our network guy that we must pay for a developer subscription. Given that I'm pretty sure we paid in the mid five figures for our new Fortinet edge router, that seems pretty stupid.
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:56 pm

captaintrav wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
@Waco - Could be worse. You could be using Lotus IBM Notes. "It's not dead yet!" :wink:


We are. And despite promises it's going away, it looks at this point that it will still be around when we migrate to Windows 10.


Wait, what? The email software that failed back in the mid-90's is still around? I've seen and used Novell Groupwise* zombie installations at large companies, but I've not ever heard of Notes after about 2002...

*It has a number of cool and possibly illegal features, on top of working relatively well.
 
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:19 am

Vhalidictes wrote:
captaintrav wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
@Waco - Could be worse. You could be using Lotus IBM Notes. "It's not dead yet!" :wink:

We are. And despite promises it's going away, it looks at this point that it will still be around when we migrate to Windows 10.

Wait, what? The email software that failed back in the mid-90's is still around? I've seen and used Novell Groupwise* zombie installations at large companies, but I've not ever heard of Notes after about 2002...

Yup, still used at a number of large corporations, apparently. I did not realize it was still "a thing" either until I was forced to deal with it when my employer was acquired by a company that still uses Notes for e-mail and calendaring. It doesn't suck as badly if you use the web interface instead of the native client.

I will say this: The fact that nobody wants to deal with Notes has resulted in a rapid migration to Slack for most internal communication, which overall has been a good thing! :lol:
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:38 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Vhalidictes wrote:
captaintrav wrote:
We are. And despite promises it's going away, it looks at this point that it will still be around when we migrate to Windows 10.

Wait, what? The email software that failed back in the mid-90's is still around? I've seen and used Novell Groupwise* zombie installations at large companies, but I've not ever heard of Notes after about 2002...

Yup, still used at a number of large corporations, apparently. I did not realize it was still "a thing" either until I was forced to deal with it when my employer was acquired by a company that still uses Notes for e-mail and calendaring. It doesn't suck as badly if you use the web interface instead of the native client.

I will say this: The fact that nobody wants to deal with Notes has resulted in a rapid migration to Slack for most internal communication, which overall has been a good thing! :lol:


Ha ha ha ... We're running Outlook 2016 using Office365 and cloud hosted exchange - having migrated from IBM Notes 9 "Social Edition" and Sametime - but the kicker? Our ECO, IT service ticket system, vendor insurance certs, and contractor training database all reside on the notes domino server. So, we use two email clients. One for email, and calendar, and the other to do the rest of our work.
 
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:43 pm

We're still supposed to use some sort of stupid Notes plugin to request PTO. I just ask my supervisor in person, and he's good with that. I don't think I have opened the native Notes client in over 6 months.
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:48 pm

just brew it! wrote:
We're still supposed to use some sort of stupid Notes plugin to request PTO. I just ask my supervisor in person, and he's good with that. I don't think I have opened the native Notes client in over 6 months.

The State has an official form for requesting leave and it's supposed to be used even down to the single hour level (State system personnel accounting is all hours-based). Haven't filed one ever and I started in SEP 1996.
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:20 pm

Man I thought I had it bad, with an in-house website that was developed for IE6 (even uses VBScript). At least I can still use it in quirks mode in IE11. But jbi has to use Notes. :lol:
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:01 am

captaintrav wrote:
...the installer would refuse to continue if you didn't have .Net 4.5 installed, including if you had 4.6 or newer installed. What moron couldn't fathom that 4.5 might not be the last version of .NET ever?


Just ran into some lab instrument software that doesn't like Windows 10. The installer checks to see if .Net is installed, finds 4.6, says "Yes, I don't have to install it.", then the very next step fails as .Net 2.0/3.5 isn't installed. Durrr. Fix that, it installs fine but then won't run anyway.

That falls into the depressingly normal state of laboratory instrument software, however this special edition also can't run at all if the date/time format is set to anything other than US English. Thanks.
 
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:13 am

Taxythingy wrote:
captaintrav wrote:
That falls into the depressingly normal state of laboratory instrument software, however this special edition also can't run at all if the date/time format is set to anything other than US English. Thanks.


Somehow, the date format requirement grinds my gears more than tripping up on the .NET version :D
 
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Re: Stupid and terrible software.

Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:36 am

arunphilip wrote:
Taxythingy wrote:
captaintrav wrote:
That falls into the depressingly normal state of laboratory instrument software, however this special edition also can't run at all if the date/time format is set to anything other than US English. Thanks.


Somehow, the date format requirement grinds my gears more than tripping up on the .NET version :D

After hearing about issues such as this, I wonder if users of laboratory equipment should write the software themselves.

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