Personal computing discussed

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cphite
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:28 pm

whm1974 wrote:
So is Windows 10 anywhere as bad as people been saying it is?


Which people?

Windows 10 isn't perfect but then again no OS is perfect. Things I don't like... The UI seems to lag sometimes, especially the start menu. The update process can be irritating sometimes.

Aside from that... it's actually remarkably stable in my own experience. There will always be people who can give examples of issues, but for me it's been better than previous versions. Games and other applications seem to run as fast as they used to, if not faster.

The privacy concerns, the forced updates bricking the system,


The privacy concerns are still there; though I don't think they're quite as worrisome as some might. I haven't seen any updates brick a system personally, but that's something that happens from time to time - pretty rare considering the sheer number of machines out there.

Microsoft trying to force everyone to use the Windows Store, and etc.


Nobody is being forced to use the Windows store. You can get along just fine without ever opening the Windows store. I have a couple of free apps that I use from the Store, stuff like FitBit and the like... but really it's just an additional source of applications. If you don't want to use it, you just don't use it.

I'm not saying that Linux is perfect, that too needs a lot of improvements as well.


It all comes down to what you want to do and how much effort you want to put into doing it. Windows is still great in that you can (in the vast majority of cases) simply turn it on and go; Apple OS is huge for the same reason. Most people don't want to have to tinker with their OS to get things to work.
 
Waco
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:53 pm

Having adopted Windows 10 on essentially day one - I've opened the store maybe 3 or 4 times total in the past few years across all my systems. There's nothing forcing you to use it.
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DancinJack
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:55 pm

Waco wrote:
Having adopted Windows 10 on essentially day one - I've opened the store maybe 3 or 4 times total in the past few years across all my systems. There's nothing forcing you to use it.

Also a Day One person here, and I have quite literally never opened the store on my desktop at home. Seriously.
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synthtel2
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:05 pm

auxy wrote:
You can avoid 100% of all Windows issues by simply not doing updates. If you're only using it for a Wintendo it doesn't matter anyway. In Pro and Enterprise versions there's a policy called "Configure Automatic Updates" that you can simply set to Disabled. I use Portable Update to install some updates (mostly bugfix/functionality updates), but for the most part my Windows machines are completely stock-off-the-disk for years and years. No issues. Obviously I don't recommend this for "real work" machines or anything in a business environment. (´Д⊂ヽ

No.

auxy wrote:
Only on machines using HDDs for system disks. On my machine I literally can winkey+search+launch as fast as I can type program name fragments. For some unknowable reason Windows' SearchUI (Cortana, which actually handles all searching in 10) does have to hit the disk every time you use it, so it does take a second on HDD machines. This is just one of many indications that make it very clear that MS is only developing for new machines (particularly high-end ultrabooks) and doesn't really care about anything else.

This install is on an SSD, and the search still isn't fast enough. As I use it on Linux, a particular input sequence will always do the same thing regardless of timing, while Windows' search does entirely different things depending on how much of the work it's gotten done. That's the fundamental problem right there, and Windows' search being one to two orders of magnitude slower only makes the fundamental problem clear to see.

auxy wrote:
You can disable the web-search-from-start-menu functionality. Probably helps a lot in making my system so responsive as described above.

IME it doesn't stay disabled, and doesn't help with responsiveness even when it is. I think last I tried it it went from {if(user pressed enter && search incomplete) launch web search} to {if(user pressed enter && search incomplete) do nothing}.

auxy wrote:
You can fix that to some degree by fussing about with your PATH environment variable like it's 1990 and we're on DOS.

How's that work with executables in Program\ Files/somerandomfolder? I'd bother futzing with PATH, but not having binaries collected in some place like /usr/bin makes it more difficult. If it works, I'm interested.

auxy wrote:
This seems like a drummed-up complaint. What are you manually launching multiple instances of? I have some apps that I use multiple instances of, but I only launch them by opening an associated file. Anyway, you can open a second instance of whatever app by shift-clicking its taskbar icon. Lots of things in Windows work by shift-clicking or ctrl-clicking.

File manager instances, more often than anything else. Shift-clicking for that will definitely be useful, thanks. Shame MS makes such things so undiscoverable.

auxy wrote:
You can search for items on your desktop.

Then we're right back to the problems with search.

auxy wrote:
The majority of this is just a matter of familiarity. Obviously, Windows isn't as customizable or configurable as Linux, but there ARE sane ways to do things. You just don't know them. (*´▽`*)

My point with most of that was that if it has to compete with an environment as customized and streamlined as the one I spend most of my time in, it's going to lose regardless. Not everyone is (or should be) interested in tuning an environment like that, but for those of us who are, it's a major failing of Windows.

Windows' features simultaneously don't need to be as undiscoverable as they are. Apparently I was supposed to know that shift+click opens another instance - OK, how was I supposed to know that? Throwing that in for those who happen to know about it is great, but it isn't a substitute for something a bit more obvious. What should have existed IMO is an option for taskbar item grouping that separates pinned launchers and active programs, emulating the old-school quick launch behavior.
 
LostCat
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:24 pm

Search is supposed to be decoupled from Cortana soon, which should help. I don't have links handy.
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Captain Ned
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:33 pm

Quick question:

How many of those bitching about Win10 telemetry/privacy use debit cards or NFC phone payment methods out in meatspace? Conversely, how many of you solely use cash?

We all shed megabytes of data on a daily basis, 99.999% of which is completely out of our control. One's choice in OS seems to be a peculiar hill on which to make a death stand, though.
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Glorious
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:38 pm

Yeah, and to add another dimension to that, facebook exists solely as a vehicle to sell *YOU* as the product.

Most (admittedly probably not all) Win10 telemetry is about improving Windows FOR you. Unlike almost all data collectors out there, Microsoft has a very valid interest in at least some of this data.
 
CScottG
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:00 pm

Glorious wrote:
CScottG wrote:
What get's me though is the incredible complacency of the majority, and that's what Microsoft counts on.


What gets me is the incredible smug self-regard by the likes of you, in which you don't even pretend that your agenda here involves privacy & consent.

No, what "gets you" isn't the actual issue, but rather how others are "complacent" about it. :roll:

Thanks for the beneficence. :roll: Do you have any other pretexts available to communicate how you're better than others? This one is getting tired.

---

I don't turn it off because I don't care. I'm not complacent, I just don't care because I'm not like you and unlike you, that doesn't bother me.

And, since you can't even describe just what's so bad about it without excessively non-specific and extremely unclear allegations, I'm disinclined to take your word for it. I hardly know anything about it, but what I do know contradicts your vague hand-waving about the "problem".




-why are you replying to my posts.. at all?
 
synthtel2
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:03 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
Quick question:

How many of those bitching about Win10 telemetry/privacy use debit cards or NFC phone payment methods out in meatspace? Conversely, how many of you solely use cash?

We all shed megabytes of data on a daily basis, 99.999% of which is completely out of our control. One's choice in OS seems to be a peculiar hill on which to make a death stand, though.

I use cash for pretty much everything meatspace and less than ~$100. This isn't completely opaque or anything, but it beats shedding card info into every random commercial entity's system.
 
DancinJack
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:19 pm

synthtel2 wrote:
I use cash for pretty much everything meatspace and less than ~$100. This isn't completely opaque or anything, but it beats shedding card info into every random commercial entity's system.

Ned can back me up here, but that's not how card data works (anymore). To be PCI compliant, most stuff these days is tokenized and little to no card data is ACTUALLY saved within the system. Data is encrypted in a token that stays in the system for a prespecified amount of time so they can do refunds or returns or whatever.

I completely respect everyone's right to pay for **** how they want, but to do so with and because of a misunderstanding of what is actually happening is where I think it crosses the line.

(My experience comes from building (from scratch) an e-commerce payment system in totallity with a team of other engineers. Payments are fun)
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sweatshopking
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:22 pm

David wrote:
Windows 10 is fine. At t his point the issues are way overblown.


yep. it's easily the best OS on the market at this point. Especially with the new telemetry control settings in the new upcoming update, even that issue should be quieter, though i doubt it actually will be. There is no reason to be using any other version of windows at this point, unless you happen to be using some software made by a company which can't be bothered to update it. The store is fine, though still needs more applications, but seems to be improving generally.

Credit card data is a bigger concern in the USA than in most places, since the USA is still using mag swipes (lolwtf is it 1999).

If you can believe it Microsoft has blown it on cortana and search. it's a mess, far behind the competition, and in typical MS fashion possibly might even get shuttered. Who knows at this point.
So far the next major update is looking great. LOVE the new resume task view, and other new features. Heading in a good direction.

as for the store, yeah, many people don't use it, but they probably should. The future of windows isn't win32, and it's UWP based. It offers significant advantages and we'll be better off once we move to that model. The store isn't required for that, but it's unlikely more companies will move towards that model without more store usage. If you want new Microsoft games, like forza horizon 3 or Sea of thieves you'll need to use the store. It's required due to the cross platform and "play anywhere" included with them.
how many times is whm1974 going to make posts complaining about windows 10 and talking about how much better Linux is? I feel like it's the reverse of my 2011 posts.
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odizzido
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:33 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
Quick question:

How many of those bitching about Win10 telemetry/privacy use debit cards or NFC phone payment methods out in meatspace? Conversely, how many of you solely use cash?

We all shed megabytes of data on a daily basis, 99.999% of which is completely out of our control. One's choice in OS seems to be a peculiar hill on which to make a death stand, though.


For me the privacy issues, while they do matter, isn't even close to the biggest reason I don't use W10. I use cash for everything though, since you asked.
 
Captain Ned
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:37 pm

DancinJack wrote:
Ned can back me up here, but that's not how card data works (anymore). To be PCI compliant, most stuff these days is tokenized and little to no card data is ACTUALLY saved within the system. Data is encrypted in a token that stays in the system for a prespecified amount of time so they can do refunds or returns or whatever.

Aye, but that assumes that the only data collected at the POS checkout terminal is the physical card data. That's what gerbils worry about most, but it's a tiny portion of the data they've shed simply by using a networked POS checkout terminal. Bob forbid you also use an affinity card in the same transaction, as that's a data highway.

I understand why Win10 skeptics are skeptical. It's just that that's by far one of the smaller daily data leakage points in the life of Jonathan Livingston Gerbil.
Imagine a world with no hypothetical questions.
 
CScottG
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:38 pm

Waco wrote:
Videos like that are obnoxious.

Windows 10 is fine. It works 99.9% of the time, automatic updates are a godsend for the majority of users, the built-in antivirus/antimalware is pretty decent, and it just works.

I'm a *nix snob and I still run Windows 10 at home for gaming and media consumption. There's no reason to really avoid it, all of the things that people like to panic about are easily disabled if you're paranoid.



What Microsoft is doing is obnoxious (with regard to data collection). So is Google, but Google is providing you a service free-of-charge that's directly related to your use-activity. (..note: If I were to use Bing I'd expect it, as I do with Google.)

Microsoft on the other-hand charges you substantially for something that is only somewhat related to your online-use, and then doesn't allow to you opt-out of their data collection in any meaningful manner. (..they specifically makes it very difficult to do so on any continuing basis).


-I don't think I'd mind it if they were giving away the OS and they specifically told you up-front that they were data-mining you to make money. (..but that's not at all what they are doing.)


Yeah, I like Windows Defender - and there is a good reason for data-transfer there. I might not even mind it if they were to say: "we are giving you this for free IF YOU WANT TO USE IT, but we will be data-mining you to make money.


As to the auto-upgrade feature. As far back as 2000 - had automatic updates. I've personally had *more* problems with Windows 10 and its automatic updates interfering with running applications and even crashing the OS than ALL THE PREVIOUS WINDOWS OS's - COMBINED. (..in other words I had very few problems with automatic updates on the other systems because I could sufficiently opt-out of automatic updates - installing what I wanted, when.)

10 is *otherwise* more resilient, and necessarily has more hardware drivers than previous Windows OS's.


There can be reasons to avoid it, and Jerry (Barnacules) does go into a few reasons why you might want to with respect to privacy concerns.

Again, for specific uses - I've got no problems with Windows 10. But for general desktop use? Not 10.
 
CScottG
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:55 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
..One's choice in OS seems to be a peculiar hill on which to make a death stand, though.



Not exactly a "death stand". :wink:

When transacting with others - you necessarily expect a loss of privacy. Purposefully going on-line - it becomes something of a battle for some manner of privacy, you don't expect it at all, and to some extent you try and achieve it (even if it's only a proactive attempt at malicious intrusion).

HOWEVER,

When NOT going on-line. When having some expectation of privacy. When *paying* for that with an implied expectation of privacy - and then NOT GETTING IT?



Imagine requiring your child to work and then pay for their very own diary. Telling them: "..it's all yours, you can put down your thoughts and ideas - they are all your own." Necessarily implying that you will never read their diary. ..and then they find out that you've been reading it each month. :wink:

How do you think they are going to react to that?
 
Captain Ned
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:02 pm

CScottG wrote:
When *paying* for that with an implied expectation of privacy - and then NOT GETTING IT?

Ah, from whence arose the implication?
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just brew it!
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:11 pm

CScottG wrote:
Imagine requiring your child to work and then pay for their very own diary. Telling them: "..it's all yours, you can put down your thoughts and ideas - they are all your own." Necessarily implying that you will never read their diary. ..and then they find out that you've been reading it each month. :wink:

Well... aside from it not being even remotely analogous to what MS is doing... OK, I guess? :roll:
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
CScottG
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:26 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
CScottG wrote:
When *paying* for that with an implied expectation of privacy - and then NOT GETTING IT?

Ah, from whence arose the implication?


From the beginning of home-user access to a home computer.

People treat it like it's *desktop* :wink: , or a diary, or an arcade gaming system. If you don't actively go on-line, you shouldn't expect your privacy to be invaded except through explicitly malicious and ILLEGAL activity (..and even then, you'd expect it as a result of something you did when you previously went on-line). I mean, people still do very much complain when spyware is *already* installed on their new computer the day they bought it (..assuming they find out about it).
 
CScottG
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:42 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Well... aside from it not being even remotely analogous to what MS is doing... OK, I guess? :roll:



Among other things, they keylog.

They do their very best to make data-relationships to profit from your use and activity at ANY TIME you use your computer.


I think it's likely not to be so personal for the vast majority as the diary example, and yet at the same time - the diary situation wasn't an example of the "monitors" making money off of the person being monitored. ..and at least in this respect I find that extra-step as being more egregious. I'm of course expecting the data and relationship building to be mostly handled by AI, which is far more removed than the diary example (..and therefor less personal and far less egrigious).

Still, that day that I was with my Mother and found out that she was on the phone with a "MS" scammer from India. After I killed that "conversation", un-plugged her machine, and then "corn-holed" her laptop's setup with a Windows 10's "refresh" (..and had it once-again connected to the network and the internet). Sure enough, I got a real Microsoft employee calling her and expressing some concern that she had "..SOME UNUSUAL ACTIVITY" on that computer. :o

-there is of course, ALWAYS the potential for abuse.
 
synthtel2
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:08 pm

DancinJack wrote:
Ned can back me up here, but that's not how card data works (anymore). To be PCI compliant, most stuff these days is tokenized and little to no card data is ACTUALLY saved within the system. Data is encrypted in a token that stays in the system for a prespecified amount of time so they can do refunds or returns or whatever.

I completely respect everyone's right to pay for **** how they want, but to do so with and because of a misunderstanding of what is actually happening is where I think it crosses the line.

The most critical data doesn't have to be saved for it to qualify as shedding data into their system. What does get saved is plenty to tell them who you are and tie it to other transactions you've made, and letting the critical data do anything at all (even if it's supposed to be strictly transient) is an opportunity for some compromised component to ship it off to bad guys.

Captain Ned wrote:
Aye, but that assumes that the only data collected at the POS checkout terminal is the physical card data. That's what gerbils worry about most, but it's a tiny portion of the data they've shed simply by using a networked POS checkout terminal. Bob forbid you also use an affinity card in the same transaction, as that's a data highway.

^ That. ^
 
LostCat
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:54 pm

I find it funny how supposedly the new Windows is awful, the new iOS is awful, the new Android is awful, hah.

Friggin weird.

(Also I have moved on from 14/1 to 50/10 internets and I don't feel like making a thread about it. Woot!)
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sweatshopking
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:55 pm

CScottG wrote:
Sure enough, I got a real Microsoft employee calling her and expressing some concern that she had "..SOME UNUSUAL ACTIVITY" on that computer. :o


that doesn't happen. Microsoft doesn't call people about unusual activity on their computer. Anyone claiming to be them is lying. Anyone claiming to have been called by them over windows 10 spying is lying.

“Remember, Microsoft will never proactively reach out to you to provide unsolicited PC or technical support. Any communication we have with you must be initiated by you.”

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/safety/ ... scams.aspx
 
Redocbew
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:58 pm

LostCat wrote:
I find it funny how supposedly the new Windows is awful, the new iOS is awful, the new Android is awful, hah.


All software sucks. All hardware sucks.

All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:15 pm

sweatshopking wrote:
“Remember, Microsoft will never proactively reach out to you to provide unsolicited PC or technical support. Any communication we have with you must be initiated by you.”
Apu wrote:
Hello, this is Windows Technical Support

The only proper response to this is a pair of noise-busting ear protectors and a can of Freon horn blasted into the phone.

Redocbew wrote:
All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.

Software is on the cycle of karma?
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CScottG
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:32 pm

sweatshopking wrote:
CScottG wrote:
Sure enough, I got a real Microsoft employee calling her and expressing some concern that she had "..SOME UNUSUAL ACTIVITY" on that computer. :o


that doesn't happen. Microsoft doesn't call people about unusual activity on their computer. Anyone claiming to be them is lying. Anyone claiming to have been called by them over windows 10 spying is lying.

“Remember, Microsoft will never proactively reach out to you to provide unsolicited PC or technical support. Any communication we have with you must be initiated by you.”

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/safety/ ... scams.aspx



..You are probably right, it was likely that she called them (..my bad). I *do* remember the call though (..on speaker phone - walking in on it) and something very close to the phrase I posted, and it was Microsoft's "help desk".

It of course had nothing to do with Windows 10 spying. It was probably my mother trying to affirm that she wasn't called by "MS tech support".


-that they can respond to that sort of situation with that type of response is still creepy IMO.
 
just brew it!
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:38 pm

"We are calling about unusual activity on your computer" is the EXACT line that the tech support scammers use. I've answered many of those calls. That wasn't Microsoft on the phone.
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Redocbew
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:46 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
Software is on the cycle of karma?


Doubtful. I've seen a lot of bad code. The authors of said code most likely had good intentions, and yet bad code remains. I don't know what it's like on the hardware side of it, but being a developer is often a bit like searching for the 13th tribe of Kobol. The person in charge says "It'll be awesome, really, and I know how to get us there." Hmm... yeah not so much.
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Glorious
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:53 pm

CScottG wrote:
..You are probably right, it was likely that she called them (..my bad). I *do* remember the call though (..on speaker phone - walking in on it) and something very close to the phrase I posted, and it was Microsoft's "help desk".


No, he isn't "probably right", SSK IS right. Period.

That wasn't a microsoft employee at all, that was a scammer. As many people have noted, that kind of thing is very common, which is why Microsoft has to publicly reiterate that it never does any such thing. The language you specifically quote isn't something that Microsoft would even say if you called their tech support, that makes *zero* sense(you call them, and they say THEY noticed "unusual activity"... uh, no?). It is, however, extremely close to the script that the scammers you use, unto identical.

I mean, first you say "it was likely she called them" and then you say she was trying to confirm with you that she WASN'T called?

Not that it matters, they cold call *AND* they also use malicious ads that instruct you to call a false number based on fake scary messages. Either way, it's scammers. It's not MS.

---

Look, there are plenty of reasons to dislike microsoft and be against the telemetry. This is kind of unhinged paranoia isn't among them and it is COMPLETELY IRRESPONSIBLE. You obviously didn't think it through for a moment: How did MS get your mother's number from her Windows 10 install? Keylogging, as you already said they do? :roll: :o :roll: And then they called her individually to complain about what she's doing with her computer or whatever?

I mean, are you serious? That's unreal.

EDIT: wait, you even say originally it was a scammer and then you reinstalled and then MS called you? Yeah, now I'm really confused by your "update" here.

This is totally unbelievable now. You story is incoherent at best, but ultimately it really just looks utterly inconsistent.

Don't spread this garbage.
 
CScottG
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:56 pm

just brew it! wrote:
"We are calling about unusual activity on your computer" is the EXACT line that the tech support scammers use. I've answered many of those calls.



-in this case it started with her calling India about an apparently captive cursor while browsing (..crappy little piece of javascript).


It was Microsoft at the end, with an affirmed call back to their number. The employee on Microsoft's end was very clear about NOT contacting us before they made that statement, and even mentioned the activities they thought were unusual (..notably the VNC-type program she had just installed with the scammers, and then when I "refreshed" it and started re-installing *programs.)

(I don't even think my mother was completely certain that she had been scammed at that point.. I think it took a few days for it to "sink-in".)




*oh God, the HORROR of installing Libre Office!
 
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Gerbilus Supremus
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:01 pm

CScottG wrote:
-in this case it started with her calling India about an apparently captive cursor while browsing (..crappy little piece of javascript).


In this case it was Microsoft at the end, with an affirmed call back to their number. The employee on Microsoft's end was very clear about NOT contacting us before they made that statement, and even mentioned the activities they thought were unusual (..notably the VNC-type program she had just installed with the scammers, and then when I "refreshed" it and started re-installing *programs.)

(I don't even think my mother was completely certain that she had been scammed at that point.. I think it took a few days for it to "sink-in".)




*oh God, the HORROR of installing Libre Office!.


Well, after your third update to this story I have even less idea of what actually happened and no remaining reason to believe your characterization of it.
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