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LostCat
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:30 am

Kougar wrote:
Seconded. This cannot be emphasized enough.

I would bet a large proportion of "unstable" systems people have reported since the haswell era were never stable to begin with because of auto-OCing, or incompatible XMP profiles. Got to experience both with new builds on the Haswell generation, which didn't leave me with a favorable impression of Gigabyte nor ASUS. Auto-OC settings should never default to enabled.

Agreed in general but I have browsers leaking all over and hard rebooting my systems constantly when playing a specific webGL game.

Even today you can't discount the software factor with random **** you'd think wouldn't be a problem anymore.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:21 am

anotherengineer wrote:
holy thread derail

Not that it matters much. The Windows 10 bashing thing has been done to death by now. :wink:

LostCat wrote:
Kougar wrote:
Seconded. This cannot be emphasized enough.

I would bet a large proportion of "unstable" systems people have reported since the haswell era were never stable to begin with because of auto-OCing, or incompatible XMP profiles. Got to experience both with new builds on the Haswell generation, which didn't leave me with a favorable impression of Gigabyte nor ASUS. Auto-OC settings should never default to enabled.

Agreed in general but I have browsers leaking all over and hard rebooting my systems constantly when playing a specific webGL game.

Even today you can't discount the software factor with random **** you'd think wouldn't be a problem anymore.

You would also think that firmware and drivers would get your "A team" developers, and/or have more extensive validation done on them, considering that they critically affect system performance, stability, and security. You would be wrong.

The current project (as of mid-week last week) at the day job is figuring our why a specific model of HBA misbehaves under certain workloads. It'll just decide to hold off processing requests on some ports for minutes at a time, for no discernible reason. This in turn causes misbehavior at the OS and application level. We suspect a firmware or driver bug. And this is enterprise grade gear, from a respected manufacturer...
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:49 am

just brew it! wrote:
And this is enterprise grade gear, from a respected manufacturer...

I'm not sure this isn't an oxymoron.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:11 am

just brew it! wrote:
anotherengineer wrote:
holy thread derail

Not that it matters much. The Windows 10 bashing thing has been done to death by now. :wink:

LostCat wrote:
Kougar wrote:
Seconded. This cannot be emphasized enough.

I would bet a large proportion of "unstable" systems people have reported since the haswell era were never stable to begin with because of auto-OCing, or incompatible XMP profiles. Got to experience both with new builds on the Haswell generation, which didn't leave me with a favorable impression of Gigabyte nor ASUS. Auto-OC settings should never default to enabled.

Agreed in general but I have browsers leaking all over and hard rebooting my systems constantly when playing a specific webGL game.

Even today you can't discount the software factor with random **** you'd think wouldn't be a problem anymore.

You would also think that firmware and drivers would get your "A team" developers, and/or have more extensive validation done on them, considering that they critically affect system performance, stability, and security. You would be wrong.

The current project (as of mid-week last week) at the day job is figuring our why a specific model of HBA misbehaves under certain workloads. It'll just decide to hold off processing requests on some ports for minutes at a time, for no discernible reason. This in turn causes misbehavior at the OS and application level. We suspect a firmware or driver bug. And this is enterprise grade gear, from a respected manufacturer...


lol well since it's derailed, how can one find out more about Firmware/BIOS coding, one can find C/etc tutorials everywhere, but BIOS/Firmware seems a bit magic in finding some meat and potatoes information on how it's done properly.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:59 am

SuperSpy wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
And this is enterprise grade gear, from a respected manufacturer...

I'm not sure this isn't an oxymoron.

LOL... yeah, I guess I am not so sure about that either. I must say, my opinion of "enterprise grade" hardware (and the companies that produce it) has gone down a few notches since getting more closely involved with that side of the industry. It's still a notch or two above typical consumer gear though...
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:28 am

anotherengineer wrote:
lol well since it's derailed, how can one find out more about Firmware/BIOS coding, one can find C/etc tutorials everywhere, but BIOS/Firmware seems a bit magic in finding some meat and potatoes information on how it's done properly.

You'd probably get some of the background for that in a Computer Engineering degree program. I'd say a big part of it is knowing enough EE/CE to be able to read the manufacturer's data sheet for a chip and understand how that translates into BIOS/firmware/driver requirements.

For CPU/chipset level stuff, some of the relevant documentation may be available only under NDA...
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:28 am

just brew it! wrote:
anotherengineer wrote:
lol well since it's derailed, how can one find out more about Firmware/BIOS coding, one can find C/etc tutorials everywhere, but BIOS/Firmware seems a bit magic in finding some meat and potatoes information on how it's done properly.

You'd probably get some of the background for that in a Computer Engineering degree program. I'd say a big part of it is knowing enough EE/CE to be able to read the manufacturer's data sheet for a chip and understand how that translates into BIOS/firmware/driver requirements.

For CPU/chipset level stuff, some of the relevant documentation may be available only under NDA...


Ahh NDA, I guess that would explain it's rarity. Be nice to have the coles notes/readers digest version. Even GPU Firmware/BIOS's now are getting pretty complex, it would be interesting even on a simple block diagram level how it interfaces between the hardware and software.

Is it proprietary code or just written in C or some other common language?
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:48 am

Usually C (unless things have changed since I last looked), plus some lower-level machine code stuff for tie ins.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:13 pm

just brew it! wrote:
SuperSpy wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
And this is enterprise grade gear, from a respected manufacturer...

I'm not sure this isn't an oxymoron.

LOL... yeah, I guess I am not so sure about that either. I must say, my opinion of "enterprise grade" hardware (and the companies that produce it) has gone down a few notches since getting more closely involved with that side of the industry. It's still a notch or two above typical consumer gear though...

IMO it starts off as a dumpster fire just like consumer gear, it's just that it get's a little bit more QA/testing.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:59 pm

Before i make any comment on Windows 10 let's say i have rather decent machine, i7 6900K@4.4Ghz with Nvidia 1080 SLI, 32GB of DDR4 3000, Samsung NVMe M.2. Ever since Microsoft released Windows 10 i would try each new version (full format, clean install) and after using it for a month or so i would go back to Windows 7 and here are the reasons for...

Windows 10 is slower in gaming than Windows 7 with exhibition of errors, errors on exiting games or not able to run game properly (older ones) or showing all kind of anomalies during game play.

For example...

Pray would run < 120-130 FPS with rather weird frame rate spike (going down to 80 FPS and up where in Windows 7 is steady 144 FPS just smooth. My monitor refresh frequency is 144 Hhz. Civilization V, sometimes completely fail to run in DX10/11 mode, older games simply do not run, newer games if switched to DX12 -> is a f. slide show, or performance is unacceptable. It appears that even in DX11 mode under Windows 10 MGPU does not work right or single card simply exhibits slower performance. Trust me i did same testing with AMD cards and showed same ****.

As far as UI goes in Windows 10 -> i cannot stand it. It is unusable, mobile oriented...complete train wrack and since and ofter UI crashes or shows freezing or corruptions, exhibits same problems like UWP apps junk written using XAML....simply garbage.

App compatibility is also iffy and Windows 10 showed 0 advantages over Windows 7. Windows Update is just f. annoying without way to disable or control it or at least control drivers update. Lot of built in crap you cannot fully disable and forced UWP apps and games without user consent.

With Windows 10 Microsoft tries to annoy user every f. possible way they can...i can't f. stand it. After giving a shot to 1803...MS can kiss my ass. This crap is not going to my PC and of course down the road i will have to find an alternative to Windows 7 in form of Linux which is not infected by MS by any means.

There is no better time for someone to introduce a new OS as alternative to Windows 10 which most people honestly f. hate but they have no other choice.
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:00 pm

whm1974 wrote:
So is Windows 10 anywhere as bad as people been saying it is? The privacy concerns, the forced updates bricking the system, Microsoft trying to force everyone to use the Windows Store, and etc.

No. Just install StartisBack ($3) and you'll barely notice you're not using W7.
I recently had to run the Store app for some reason, and I couldn't figure out how to run it since I hadn't seen the native metro UI in literally years.
Yes it has forced updated, but as someone who has worked in computer repair, I see it as a good thing since >75% of people who brought in machines were very behind on security updates.
You'll get the latest security patches, hardware support, DX12, etc.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:09 pm

Waco wrote:
End User wrote:
Brah, you’re so out in left field you’re on the other side of the fence.

Windows 10 is easily the best consumer OS in existence for desktop/laptop use.

Servers? No.
Mobile? No.

Desktop? Absolutely!

Meh.

I'm cross platform. macOS/Linux are my go to for work. Windows is my go to for gaming.

I much prefer macOS to Windows from an OS only poiint of view.
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:37 pm

As this thread is necro'ed anyway...

WU's throttling got worse again. It just makes WU downloads bursty, such that when throttled it does actually accomplish its own work slowly (still faster than I told it to), but intermittently hogs the entire connection and makes gaming hopeless. 5% and 25% behave about the same. This is now on a connection that only guarantees 4 Mbit, but usually is 12-25 Mbit. It's just plain broken, 12-25 Mbit is not a slow connection, and I'm at more of a loss than ever as to how anyone thinks WU's behavior is sane.

Do people just mentally inflate games' bandwidth requirements 100x to figure out what kind of connection might actually have a hope of playing them solidly with Win10?
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:18 pm

End User wrote:
Waco wrote:
End User wrote:
Brah, you’re so out in left field you’re on the other side of the fence.

Windows 10 is easily the best consumer OS in existence for desktop/laptop use... Desktop? Absolutely!

Meh.

I'm cross platform. macOS/Linux are my go to for work. Windows is my go to for gaming.

I much prefer macOS to Windows from an OS only poiint of view.

Absolutely agree. Left Windows years ago and never regretted it. Windows 7 was decent, but there is absolutely nothing compelling pulling me back.
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:22 pm

How bad is Windows 10 Really?

It's not. I have been using it since launch and I have installed every one of the updates within a week of it's release. Perhaps I've just been lucky, but I don't think so. I will tell you this, I am apparently much more open to change than the average person commenting on Windows 10 on the internet. I think that is the key. I'm a IT veteran for about 22 years now and I feel like the ability to accept change is underdeveloped in too many people.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:46 pm

adampk17 wrote:
How bad is Windows 10 Really?

It's not. I have been using it since launch and I have installed every one of the updates within a week of it's release. Perhaps I've just been lucky, but I don't think so. I will tell you this, I am apparently much more open to change than the average person commenting on Windows 10 on the internet. I think that is the key. I'm a IT veteran for about 22 years now and I feel like the ability to accept change is underdeveloped in too many people.

I think the problem with change might extend well beyond just computer topics. :)
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:19 pm

synthtel2 wrote:
As this thread is necro'ed anyway...

Yeah, no kidding. A half year old whm1974 thread, even.

I'll reiterate: Windows is great for people who need to do Windows stuff. If you don't need Windows-specific applications, there are potentially better choices out there (where the definition of "better" will depend on specific use case).
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:52 pm

just brew it! wrote:
synthtel2 wrote:
As this thread is necro'ed anyway...

Yeah, no kidding. A half year old whm1974 thread, even.

I'll reiterate: Windows is great for people who need to do Windows stuff. If you don't need Windows-specific applications, there are potentially better choices out there (where the definition of "better" will depend on specific use case).


Yup.

..and it's amazing how many desktop applications either have good substitutes, or can be run with Wine (on Linux).

-but for games (or those applications that just won't be substituted or work on Linux):

https://www.howtogeek.com/273824/window ... explained/
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:14 pm

adampk17 wrote:
How bad is Windows 10 Really?

It's not. I have been using it since launch and I have installed every one of the updates within a week of it's release. Perhaps I've just been lucky, but I don't think so. I will tell you this, I am apparently much more open to change than the average person commenting on Windows 10 on the internet. I think that is the key. I'm a IT veteran for about 22 years now and I feel like the ability to accept change is underdeveloped in too many people.


I could not disagree with this more strongly and it always makes my eyes roll when someone says this.
It has got nothing to do with not liking change, when that change either makes sense or actually improve things. Crappy change is bad.

As an OS, yeah Win10 is okay, though the April update causes a black screen whenever my laptop's power saving turns the screen back on, needing a power cycle. Windows feature updates also kills dual booting with Linux as well. Anyway at some point I'm thinking of blowing Win10 away and going Linux only on that machine.

The UI of Win 10 though feels like a thousand little paper cuts compared to older versions of Windows, irritating.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:17 pm

srg86 wrote:
The UI of Win 10 though feels like a thousand little paper cuts compared to older versions of Windows, irritating.

Many of those sharp edges are disappearing with each major Spring/Fall update.

Settings, for example, was barely at an Alpha state in Windows 8 and a Beta state in the earliest releases of Windos 10, but lately they've been refining and organizing Settings and it's rare that I need to access the Control Panel anymore. And frankly, Control Panel was beyond saving by the time Windows 7 reached EOL. Us techies knew how to use it from old days, but from Vista onward it was cluttered and unintuitive.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:28 pm

ludi wrote:
srg86 wrote:
The UI of Win 10 though feels like a thousand little paper cuts compared to older versions of Windows, irritating.

Many of those sharp edges are disappearing with each major Spring/Fall update.

Settings, for example, was barely at an Alpha state in Windows 8 and a Beta state in the earliest releases of Windos 10, but lately they've been refining and organizing Settings and it's rare that I need to access the Control Panel anymore. And frankly, Control Panel was beyond saving by the time Windows 7 reached EOL. Us techies knew how to use it from old days, but from Vista onward it was cluttered and unintuitive.


The old control panel, or even its newer replacements aren't really what I'm thinking of. I find the UI of doing normal day-to-day tasks are where the paper cuts are, even file management etc. It's not the large stuff that's a problem, but little things that just make it not awful, but irritating. I always come away from Win 10 just thinking thank goodness for KDE. But that's just me.

Actually the ReactOS news and screenshots remind me just how much I loved the Windows 2000 UI, that to me was the best version of Windows ever.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:43 pm

I use it every day with no struggles. There are minor annoyances (highlighting of files in the file manager randomly stops working), but no biggie. It doesn't stop the usability.
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:03 pm

ludi wrote:
srg86 wrote:
The UI of Win 10 though feels like a thousand little paper cuts compared to older versions of Windows, irritating.

Many of those sharp edges are disappearing with each major Spring/Fall update.

Settings, for example, was barely at an Alpha state in Windows 8 and a Beta state in the earliest releases of Windos 10, but lately they've been refining and organizing Settings and it's rare that I need to access the Control Panel anymore. And frankly, Control Panel was beyond saving by the time Windows 7 reached EOL. Us techies knew how to use it from old days, but from Vista onward it was cluttered and unintuitive.

While I agree with you that it's getting better, I agree more with the sentiment that breaking it in the first place was not positive change. We're just making up ground previously lost.

And that isn't to say that Windows 10 is "bad". It isn't. But that doesn't mean it's good, either.

Windows 7 was the best Windows UI MS had to offer. It's all been trying to uncluster what came after since then.
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:38 pm

srg86 wrote:

..remind me just how much I loved the Windows 2000 UI, that to me was the best version of Windows ever.


Ironically I loved 2000 because I could easily change the UI (..but also because it had much better drivers (than previous Windows), USB support, and worked with almost any game (at least for quite some time until DirectX iterations knocked it out for newer games).
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:06 pm

srg86 wrote:
..remind me just how much I loved the Windows 2000 UI, that to me was the best version of Windows ever.

Every version of Windows I've used since W2K (I'm up to W10 now on one of the work lappys, and the only one I've missed is 8.0) has been 3rd-party modified to look/act/feel as close to W2K as possible.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:31 pm

THREAD LOCKED FOR NONSENSE AND GOING ON TOO LONG
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:31 pm

sweatshopking wrote:
THREAD LOCKED FOR NONSENSE AND GOING ON TOO LONG


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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:29 pm

My holy thread derail has failed! Up to yall now.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:33 pm

just brew it! wrote:
"Auto" doesn't mean automatic overclocking. Generally it means CPU at stock clock and voltage, and RAM per the SPD.


And for the record, jbi was right. My Asus boards do not do any "Auto"-overclocking or raising of turbos or base, or sticking all cores at Turbo (it certainly does on Intel systems). The Ryzen 5 1600 runs at 3.2 and 3.6, with 2 cores allowed to hit 3.7. Sometimes XFR adds 50 MHz. The problems were sh*&^%tty UEFI offerings from Asus, not the "@Auto"
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:40 pm

Another round of nonsense thanks to Windows 10 not doing what it's told.

Our inventory control app uses MAC addresses to identify workstations and I set up a new machine a few weeks ago and initially used wifi to do the setup, as construction around it prevented me from running a cable to it yet. After the construction completed and I got a wired link run to the machine, I unchecked the 'connect to this network automatically' box on the WIFI popup, then installed the app with the wired LAN adapter as the only network source. A few reboots for updates and hardware installs and the machine was put to work. The machine ran like a top for a week and all was sunshine and rainbows.

Then I made a critical mistake: I went on vacation.

Monday afternoon rolls around and a storm knocks out the power, and as soon as the machine comes back, Windows decides to spend the rest of the day randomly cycling between wireless and wired connections, which of course wreaks havoc on everything that relies on having the IP stay the same during a session.

When I get back from my vacation, I pay the machine a visit, and of course find the 'automatically connect' box re-checked and it connected via WIFI. I assume somebody checked the box while I was gone, and uncheck it. It drops WIFI like it's supposed to and everything is fine again. Just to make sure, I reboot it, and sure enough it starts up connects to WIFI and starts randomly bouncing between wired and wireless. When I go check, it's back to having the box checked.

I had to actually go in and force it to forget the WIFI password in order to stop it from re-connecting.

Lovely bit of down time for that 'feature'.
Last edited by SuperSpy on Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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