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Usacomp2k3
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:47 pm

My in-laws have 3mbps DSL and updates haven’t ever been. A problem for downloading time. It just takes longer before you get notified that an update is installing. It’s not like it downloads anything during upgrading.
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:49 pm

DancinJack wrote:
Redocbew wrote:
I don't know of any "other OS" which does that, but maybe that's just me.

Unless you mean how linux installs new kernels side by side with the old one and doesn't switch over until you reboot, but that's not really the same thing as installing an entirely new image. It doesn't seem like the recent snafu's with windows updates have really involved the kernel much either.

Android does (and I'm sure some other forms of Linux do it that we don't know about).

Basically anything Linux-based that is treated like a turnkey appliance is likely to handle things that way. Systems I deal with at the day job (some of which are beefy servers with dozens of disks and 100s of GBs of RAM) use a "live image" boot mechanism similar to what you'd see for bootable Linux thumbdrives and optical discs. The OS image is treated as read-only, and is distributed as a single compressed archive which gets decompressed on boot. There's a separate writable partition on the OS drive for persistent data like configuration settings and log files. There's also a plugin-like mechanism available for adding functionality to an existing base image, but this is not typically used; customization is normally handled via configuration settings, or (in some cases) a special version of the entire system image.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:05 pm

ludi wrote:
synthtel2 wrote:
It's a short interruption by the time you get to 60 Mbit, but it's still an interruption (with opaque and inconsistent behavior, even).

The inconsistent behavior I'll grant (and have seen it, particularly in the networking subsystem), but I think the rest of that is your tacit admission of exaggeration. Not everyone can get a 50+mb connection but anyone that can get at least 10mb will be able to deal with the update process more or less gracefully.

That depends on the workload and how you define "gracefully". If it's an email-and-word-processing machine, no problem, it'll just be a bit slower sometimes. If you bought a 10 Mbit downlink because your workload actually runs really badly on less, you might resent that bandwidth being randomly unavailable.

My own median Windows workload is to see or hear (from Linux) that friends are playing or about to play Planetside, reboot into Windows to join them, fire up the game, and hope that WU sees fit to stay out of the way because if it doesn't the game will be unplayable (10 Mbit) or barely playable (25 Mbit). The game only averages about half a Mbit of downlink bandwidth. WU throttling barely helps. I booted up Windows because I wanted to play the game *now*, not in half an hour. On 10 Mbit and 1803, I would far too often just have to wait that half an hour. On 25 Mbit and 1809, it's usually alright just because WU can get its work done fast enough, but still very annoying when it can't.

Gaming isn't exactly a mission-critical workload. People do run mission-critical workloads on desktop Windows (though I recoil at the thought for reasons such as this), and WU has screwed them up badly enough that it made the news on at least one occasion.

This isn't an issue for a majority of people, but if it is an issue for you, you're not going to forget about it quickly.

ludi wrote:
And given that the majority of systems in the wild will never be updated manually, I'll take the mild inconvenience of the auto-update process over the drive-by system pwnings and botnet attacks that characterized the latter days of XP and, to a lesser extent, Win7.

There's plenty of room in between these two extremes. My own guess at a good compromise would be to have a semi-manual mode, which behaves as manual if you're keeping up with things but will auto-install updates if you've ignored them for too long. There's still no way to end up with a terribly out-of-date system, and people who care enough can get the control they want over the process.

The current way isn't even perfect at avoiding out-of-date systems, because it annoys people enough that they try to completely kill WU.
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:20 pm

synthtel2 wrote:
Gaming isn't exactly a mission-critical workload. People do run mission-critical workloads on desktop Windows (though I recoil at the thought for reasons such as this), and WU has screwed them up badly enough that it made the news on at least one occasion.

You would be amazed (and quite likely horrified) at some of the "off label" things desktop Windows gets used for. What sort of things, you ask? Well... until about 4 years ago I worked in the defense sector. Let's just say I've seen Windows XP (and Windows XP BSODs) in places I never would've expected, and that it was a somewhat different meaning of the phrase "mission-critical workload" than you probably intended.

And no, it wasn't my employer that did this, it was another defense contractor who shall remain nameless. To this day I have no idea how they got the customer to agree to that.

At least it was a quasi-embedded application, so AFAIK no connection to the public internet. This in turn meant reduced risk of malware and no risk of unexpected system updates interrupting the... *ahem*... mission!
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:27 pm

synthtel2 wrote:
Gaming isn't exactly a mission-critical workload.

Of course it is.
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:28 pm

just brew it! wrote:
To this day I have no idea how they got the customer to agree to that.

Clueless customer. Unethical contractor.
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:53 pm

As for W10 update policy, I approach it from two prongs.

Prong 1 affects maybe 5% at most (more likely far less than that) of the W10 population, namely us gerbils who have the skills to assess our own situations and schedule updates when we want, and don't like how W10 makes full control difficult.

Prong 2 is the 95-99% of clusers who are the ones whose unpatched computers form the botnet/spamnet brigades that make the modern 'Net such a pain at times

Would I as a "Prong 1" user wish more control? Without a doubt. That said I fully grok why MS forces W10 updates on the cluser population, fully support same, and can deal with the occasional confusion. It's the IT version of herd immunity vs. anti-vaxxers.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:38 am

synthtel2 wrote:
My own median Windows workload is to see or hear (from Linux) that friends are playing or about to play Planetside, reboot into Windows to join them, fire up the game, and hope that WU sees fit to stay out of the way because if it doesn't the game will be unplayable (10 Mbit) or barely playable (25 Mbit).

Well, yeah, in general Windows 10 will try to keep updates out of the way of normal use, but if you only fire it up once in a while, there will usually be a backlog ready to download and the system will have no expectation of being available again any time soon. So away it goes. Unfortunately I don't see a way around that for your use case, since it sounds like you use it in a way where it would never (or rarely) get updated otherwise, i.e. exactly the problem Microsoft is trying to kill.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:37 am

Captain Ned wrote:
As for W10 update policy, I approach it from two prongs.

Prong 1 affects maybe 5% at most (more likely far less than that) of the W10 population, namely us gerbils who have the skills to assess our own situations and schedule updates when we want, and don't like how W10 makes full control difficult.

Prong 2 is the 95-99% of clusers who are the ones whose unpatched computers form the botnet/spamnet brigades that make the modern 'Net such a pain at times

Would I as a "Prong 1" user wish more control? Without a doubt. That said I fully grok why MS forces W10 updates on the cluser population, fully support same, and can deal with the occasional confusion. It's the IT version of herd immunity vs. anti-vaxxers.

I just don't think these are mutually exclusive. Setting strict limits on how out of date a system can get doesn't have to mean being obnoxious about it within those limits.

ludi wrote:
synthtel2 wrote:
My own median Windows workload is to see or hear (from Linux) that friends are playing or about to play Planetside, reboot into Windows to join them, fire up the game, and hope that WU sees fit to stay out of the way because if it doesn't the game will be unplayable (10 Mbit) or barely playable (25 Mbit).

Well, yeah, in general Windows 10 will try to keep updates out of the way of normal use, but if you only fire it up once in a while, there will usually be a backlog ready to download and the system will have no expectation of being available again any time soon. So away it goes. Unfortunately I don't see a way around that for your use case, since it sounds like you use it in a way where it would never (or rarely) get updated otherwise, i.e. exactly the problem Microsoft is trying to kill.

That's my median use of it, but not the only one. It does get booted up a few times a week, kicking off updates manually wouldn't be a problem (I'm used to it from Arch), and that wouldn't be a sparse update schedule. On boot just happens to be exactly the wrong time for them, and the available mechanisms to avoid updates on boot are pretty clunky.
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:53 am

Even if it's bad,how many people like it.
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:11 am

Captain Ned wrote:
Would I as a "Prong 1" user wish more control? Without a doubt.

Then get the pro version, enable the group policy regarding automatic updates and only click the button when you want to update.

Works like a charm on our school computers, I only update them once a year from USB stick, because Internet security isn't mission critical, since these devices never get to see any sensitive data, only kid learning programs.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:41 am

Ifalna wrote:
Works like a charm on our school computers, I only update them once a year from USB stick, because Internet security isn't mission critical, since these devices never get to see any sensitive data, only kid learning programs.

Unless they are on their own subnet firewalled off from any systems used by teachers and staff, they could still act as an infection vector for other more sensitive systems.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:17 am

Speaking of school computers, Windows 10 was the reason I bought a laptop for school work. It seemed like every time someone sat down at a computer in one particular lab, they'd get booted mid-class period for a restart. And since they were equipped with spinning rust, those updates took FOREVER, despite having decent quad-core i5 CPUs and 8GB of memory. They were otherwise spec'd fine.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:30 am

derFunkenstein wrote:
Speaking of school computers, Windows 10 was the reason I bought a laptop for school work. It seemed like every time someone sat down at a computer in one particular lab, they'd get booted mid-class period for a restart. And since they were equipped with spinning rust, those updates took FOREVER, despite having decent quad-core i5 CPUs and 8GB of memory. They were otherwise spec'd fine.

What a dumb decision. Being lab systems, they probably did not even need a lot of local storage. I bet they could've used smaller SSDs for the same price, and avoided the performance hit.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:57 am

Most of the school labs I've used are all "frozen" images that open an effective read-only partition every reboot that thaws the image. IT manages the image and pushes out any updates at whatever interval. The individual machines didn't even have the ability to do updates.
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:19 am

just brew it! wrote:
derFunkenstein wrote:
Speaking of school computers, Windows 10 was the reason I bought a laptop for school work. It seemed like every time someone sat down at a computer in one particular lab, they'd get booted mid-class period for a restart. And since they were equipped with spinning rust, those updates took FOREVER, despite having decent quad-core i5 CPUs and 8GB of memory. They were otherwise spec'd fine.

What a dumb decision. Being lab systems, they probably did not even need a lot of local storage. I bet they could've used smaller SSDs for the same price, and avoided the performance hit.

One critical detail I missed: they had 3.5" sleds. The drives were (from what I can tell) ancient. 250GB, probably held over from the previous lab. But yeah, it's ridiculous in a computer science department lab. Such is life. :lol:
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:35 am

We've had some Win10 machines take over an hour to install updates even with an SSD. In at least one case the updates kicked off when the user logged in first thing in the morning.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:07 am

I don't think I've seen a desktop/server Linux system take anywhere near that long to install updates since the early Fedora Core days. And the system remains usable right up to the point of reboot, while the updates install in the background.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:18 am

Y'all must be using some seriously crappy hardware. Which is understandable. Not like each of us can afford to upgrade every PC we touch. I have just never seen these kind of issues on any of the W10 machines I interact with on the regular. Even my dad's old Thinkpad, which is a dual core i5 from years ago with spinning rust handles updates just fine. :/
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:42 pm

https://imgur.com/a/mSB3lop

these are my download settings for windows update, courtesy of the new insider preview coming out in likely april. you've got more control over how updates are downloaded, and i think it's long overdue. Will it be enough to placate some of the rage? i doubt it. before we lose it over uploading updates, if you don't want to share because of your bandwidth caps just set your connection as metered (which you should do anyway if it's metered) and you won't upload.

I've also not had any issues with updates in literally years with one exception: a Chinese atom tablet running w10 with 2gb of ram and emmc storage. Otherwise, i find they're generally fine, and usually already done at night time while i sleep, since you can just easily set it to do that, or it'll even just learn when you're not using it and do it itself. I just don't understand the issue anymore.
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:34 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Ifalna wrote:
Works like a charm on our school computers, I only update them once a year from USB stick, because Internet security isn't mission critical, since these devices never get to see any sensitive data, only kid learning programs.

Unless they are on their own subnet firewalled off from any systems used by teachers and staff, they could still act as an infection vector for other more sensitive systems.

Completely separate networks, yup.

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
Most of the school labs I've used are all "frozen" images that open an effective read-only partition every reboot that thaws the image. IT manages the image and pushes out any updates at whatever interval. The individual machines didn't even have the ability to do updates.

Usually right but our computers are too crappy in conjunction with Win10 and constantly lock up upon boot.
So I basically removed the imaging software because elementary school kids don't break the system anyway.

Certainly less work that having to supervise nearly every damn lesson because some comps are constantly acting up.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:03 pm

sweatshopking wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/mSB3lop

these are my download settings for windows update, courtesy of the new insider preview coming out in likely april. you've got more control over how updates are downloaded, and i think it's long overdue. Will it be enough to placate some of the rage? i doubt it. before we lose it over uploading updates, if you don't want to share because of your bandwidth caps just set your connection as metered (which you should do anyway if it's metered) and you won't upload.

Those settings have been there since 1803 IIRC (could be 1709), they just don't work very well. A half Mbit of gaming traffic still gets messed with by WU when WU is heavily throttled on a 25 Mbit connection, because throttled WU delivers data in an extremely bursty pattern (not to mention how it always just goes faster than whatever the throttle is set to).
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:09 pm

So they have! I didn't notice them until recently.
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:15 pm

Or just turn that off totally like me so it only pulls from MS :) (I only have two W10 PCs on this network so I'm not that worried about sharing the updates and I'm sure as hell not allowing it wider than local network)
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:39 pm

synthtel2 wrote:
Updates that complete faster aren't the real solution, updates that don't interrupt other stuff in the first place are the real solution.


Disabling the Windows Update service will prevent interruptions. Just gotta remember to reenable it and check for updates periodically.

If you prefer the command line over the GUI, it's:

sc config wuauserv start= disabled


(the space after the equal sign is mandatory)
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:58 pm

That didn't work on Win10 Home last I tried it (needed to stop the service to break out of an infinite loop and it wouldn't let me).

A couple of scripts to act as a quick toggle for that could probably do about what I want on Pro.
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:31 pm

DancinJack wrote:
Y'all must be using some seriously crappy hardware. Which is understandable. Not like each of us can afford to upgrade every PC we touch. I have just never seen these kind of issues on any of the W10 machines I interact with on the regular. Even my dad's old Thinkpad, which is a dual core i5 from years ago with spinning rust handles updates just fine. :/


No! The user I spoke of has a newish laptop, I think a Latitude E5550 or thereabouts, probably a Core i3 and 8GB of RAM.

But we do have some crufty old crap around. Plenty of old early C2D-era stuff still, many with spinning rust. Budget cuts suck.
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:04 pm

bthylafh wrote:
DancinJack wrote:
Y'all must be using some seriously crappy hardware. Which is understandable. Not like each of us can afford to upgrade every PC we touch. I have just never seen these kind of issues on any of the W10 machines I interact with on the regular. Even my dad's old Thinkpad, which is a dual core i5 from years ago with spinning rust handles updates just fine. :/


No! The user I spoke of has a newish laptop, I think a Latitude E5550 or thereabouts, probably a Core i3 and 8GB of RAM.

But we do have some crufty old crap around. Plenty of old early C2D-era stuff still, many with spinning rust. Budget cuts suck.


I thought with the improvements (reduced disk footprint, etc) to Windows 10 it would be a better experience on old hardware, but once I tried Windows 10 with a spinning disk, it was not a fun time. For my brother's old cheapo desktop I convinced him to get a 512GB SSD. I believe that was a Sandy or Ivy i5. Clean install, just to login and start iTunes was excruciating with the spinner. With Windows 7 the machine wasn't nearly as bad.
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:47 pm

Funny.. :lol: (Windows 7 vs. 10)

https://youtu.be/RFHBBN0CqXk?t=290
 
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Re: How bad is Windows 10 Really?

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:10 am

Since 1809 has been prevalent, I don't remember any Win10 system that I use, administer, or encounter rebooting because of an update. They all just sit there waiting for me to log in and go into settings and click restart. 14 days is probably the longest I've gone without logging into one of these. I suppose all those settings I set 3 - 4 years ago finally took. Despite the rough start, 1809 feels pretty solid. Updates are much faster, both before and after the reboot. I know, because finally I'm always around for the reboot.
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