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DancinJack
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AV1 Video Codec

Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:22 pm

https://code.facebook.com/posts/2538520 ... -use-case/

So the gist is (at least in FB's test) ~30-50% better compression, but longer encode times. Still, should be worth it for the big boys (Netflix, Google, Hulu, etc).
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meerkt
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Re: AV1 Video Codec

Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:19 pm

No H265 comparison, oddly.
 
DragonDaddyBear
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Re: AV1 Video Codec

Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:25 pm

meerkt wrote:
No H265 comparison, oddly.

That's the point. They don't want to pay the license fee. AV1 is free and purportedly better. It will take time to show up in use, though, because there is no hardware to decode it in consumer devices.
 
meerkt
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Re: AV1 Video Codec

Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:00 pm

They're comparing it to H264, which is non-free as well. And the current commercial benchmark is H265.
 
jihadjoe
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Re: AV1 Video Codec

Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:17 pm

AFAIK AV1 is about even to slightly better than HEVC at lower bitrates, HEVC taking the lead at higher bitrates.

IMO the the problem mostly is AV1 is second to market, and HEVC already has a solid foothold in devices with dedicated decode/encode hardware. It's in GPUs, camcorders, set-top boxes, DVD/BR players... Unless AV1 gets dedicated decode hardware it will actually cost the consumer more to use it just because of power use from less efficient decode. Netflix and Google will probably use it, but that's savings for THEM, achieved with additional costs (decode inefficiency) passed on to the consumer.

The royalty-free argument is hard to sell too, because that cost is born by the device manufacturers and isn't really felt by the consumer.
 
DancinJack
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Re: AV1 Video Codec

Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:24 pm

jihadjoe wrote:
AFAIK AV1 is about even to slightly better than HEVC at lower bitrates, HEVC taking the lead at higher bitrates.

IMO the the problem mostly is AV1 is second to market, and HEVC already has a solid foothold in devices with dedicated decode/encode hardware. It's in GPUs, camcorders, set-top boxes, DVD/BR players... Unless AV1 gets dedicated decode hardware it will actually cost the consumer more to use it just because of power use from less efficient decode. Netflix and Google will probably use it, but that's savings for THEM, achieved with additional costs (decode inefficiency) passed on to the consumer.

The royalty-free argument is hard to sell too, because that cost is born by the device manufacturers and isn't really felt by the consumer.

I'd agree with you except for the fact that literally ALL the big streaming names are onboard with AV1.

Apple, Amazon, AMD, ARM, BBC, Broadcom, Cisco, Google, Intel, Microsoft, Mozilla, Netflix, Nvidia. Of course it's going to take some time, but AV1 is no doubt going to replace HEVC(and VP9) in the not too distant future in a lot of places. It's still pretty early. There'll be hardware decode in another year or so.
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DragonDaddyBear
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Re: AV1 Video Codec

Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:51 pm

H.265 won't die, tough. The movie and tv industry, which produce the majority of the content, are backing the incumbent and profiting from it. We, the consumers, will still need devices that support it. The biggest winner in this is the streaming providers.
 
Usacomp2k3
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Re: AV1 Video Codec

Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:06 pm

DragonDaddyBear wrote:
H.265 won't die, tough. The movie and tv industry, which produce the majority of the content, are backing the incumbent and profiting from it. We, the consumers, will still need devices that support it. The biggest winner in this is the streaming providers.

Don’t forget that Apple, Amazon, and Netflix are now part of the “movie and tv industry” and have some pretty significant weight.
 
toki
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Re: AV1 Video Codec

Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:55 pm

Please don't take offence, I just thought this was funny. OK here goes. Thanks MOV and quicktime : /
 
continuum
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Re: AV1 Video Codec

Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:22 pm

I'm also curious (and in agreement) that HVEC/x.265's lead is too significant for AV1 to make grounds on, especially if performance is only marginally better. The AV1 guys have also said that AV2 is in the works for a few years down the road, I wonder if they'll aim to do AV2 sooner rather than later...
 
TheEmrys
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Re: AV1 Video Codec

Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:36 pm

What lead? Among who? It really only matters which corporations support which codec. More than likely, as h.265 support is already pretty well saturated, we will see AV1 added for HW decoding. And content providers will use whatever they use. Home users will still choose what they want.
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Redocbew
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Re: AV1 Video Codec

Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:55 pm

If the only downside to AV1 is longer encoding times I doubt Netflix, Amazon, et al really care too much about that, but a reduction in bandwidth could be a big deal.

Codecs for streaming video have seen considerable churn in the last few years. If that continues then I'd expect it to start looking like the web API churn with most of the major players clustering around the most widely used technology which pisses them off the least.
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jensend
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Re: AV1 Video Codec

Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:33 pm

The h.265 licensing situation is nothing like that for h.264.

For h.264, there is a single patent cartel selling licenses (MPEG LA), their prices for most uses are well within many companies' ability to pay, and many uses no longer require royalties at all.

For h.265, you have to pay expensive royalties to three separate patent consortia (MPEG LA, HEVC Advance, Velos) and, if you want to actually CYA legally, arrange licenses with fifteen other individual companies which hold h.265 patents but have not joined any consortium. This kind of disastrous legal mess and costly licensing situation is not something people are willing to deal with given that there are other viable options for video.

The founder of MPEG has admitted that this represents a complete breakdown of the MPEG royalty based format way of operating.

h.265 has failed. It didn't see significant enough adoption before the emergence of the superior AV1 to make companies willing to keep dealing with its licensing morass. This is the royalty-free formats endgame.

BTW, right now AV1 takes a horrifically long time to encode, but that's because the software work has been focused on making the right decisions for the format while finalizing the specification, not on encode performance. The format was designed with performance in mind and input from companies that are designing hardware encode and decode units. As they work on optimizing, it will speed up by around two orders of magnitude.

edit: adding a link to a comment I made at lwn early this year that says more about the legal issues involved.
 
DancinJack
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Re: AV1 Video Codec

Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:18 pm

Redocbew wrote:
If the only downside to AV1 is longer encoding times I doubt Netflix, Amazon, et al really care too much about that, but a reduction in bandwidth could be a big deal.

Codecs for streaming video have seen considerable churn in the last few years. If that continues then I'd expect it to start looking like the web API churn with most of the major players clustering around the most widely used technology which pisses them off the least.

This is accurate IMO.

The FB "study" cited 30-50% reduction in bandwidth for the same quality, but with longer encoding times. Which of course Google/Netflix/Amazon probably don't care much about due to their massive hardware stacks, and when hardware acceleration comes along in 2019 for a lot of end user devices things will get even better. I mean just look at that list of companies that are backing AV1.

Apple, Amazon, AMD, ARM, BBC, Broadcom, Cisco, Google, Intel, Microsoft, Mozilla, Netflix, Nvidia.
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Noinoi
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Re: AV1 Video Codec

Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:42 am

To be honest, AV1 seems nice, but kind of screams "too late" for it to be significant at this point given HEVC (H.265)'s foothold these days. Even my sort of ancient hardware (relatively speaking) will do hybrid decode of H.265 so things aren't too heavily loaded while a video is playing.

Significantly worse encoding performance will probably do it no favours in home use, either. I still stick mostly to H.264 mostly because of my CPU, and that the 970 doesn't really like H.265 files created by itself when played back by itself. (Maybe that's why NVIDIA never exposed H.265 encoding in GFE IIRC?) Its advantage in reducing bandwidth use over the network is probably very good to have, though.

Speaking from experience with 1080p content only. 4K might be different, of course.

Either way, one day I probably should start considering moving onto a new video card, but for the time being, things work.
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w76
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Re: AV1 Video Codec

Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:44 am

Some of the talk seems to focus on a binary decision; YouTube will stream X, or it'll stream with Y. I imagine the path of least resistance for all involved will be the streaming provider querying your browser what hardware accelerated codecs can be used, and then stream AV1 if supported, otherwise HEVC for 4K or h264/MPEG-4AVC for 1080p and below. As hardware support grows, they get their desired switch to AV1. Maybe in a decade, they finally flip the switch on HEVC, etc.

They'll have no choice outside of browsers; phones simply don't have the raw power to decode 4K content unaccelerated, and STB's like Roku's wouldn't even try. And some of that consumer hardware, specifically STB's and streaming devices, will have a life of many years.
 
derFunkenstein
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Re: AV1 Video Codec

Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:15 am

jensend wrote:
For h.265, you have to pay expensive royalties to three separate patent consortia (MPEG LA, HEVC Advance, Velos) and, if you want to actually CYA legally, arrange licenses with fifteen other individual companies which hold h.265 patents but have not joined any consortium. This kind of disastrous legal mess and costly licensing situation is not something people are willing to deal with given that there are other viable options for video.

New business opportunity: a service to maintain h.265 licensing for individual content creators.

Of course with AV1 it's a little late for that now. :lol:
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