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Yahoolian
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:14 pm

Security:
Firefox is more secure because it's security model is vastly more secure than IE. Major exploits are patched rather quickly, especially compared to the time it takes MS to patch IE.

It is also not as tied into the OS, which helps security.

Lacks ActiveX, which is the delivery mechanism for many malware. The article claims that IE SP2 is as good as Firefox in terms of spyware resistance, because
1) you can remove the spyware AFTER it gets on your computer

Yeah, but that's like saying a home is fire resistant because firefighters can come and put out fires. How is that security? That's cleanup made necessary by bad security.

2) it can be made more resistant by following a few steps

Do you expect the average user to take more steps to improve security? Why isn't it secure by default? If it's less secure by default then it is less secure for the average user.

They left out the part about turning up the IE security settings. I guess that's unnecessary?

Sure, with more marketshare there may be more holes found, but there is far more to security than marketshare.

The blog post claims that Firefox has less than 100% security. I fail to find anyone claiming it has 100% security, so nice strawman right there.

Also he claims that Firefox 1.X has a significant number of vulnerabilites given the amount of time that it has been out, totally ignoring the severity of the holes.

Rendering:
Point me to one major site that has major problems rendering in Firefox.

Performance:
Firefox has much better performance than the average user's malware infested browser. Or that doesn't count?
Last edited by Yahoolian on Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Mastertech
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:44 pm

The article claims that IE SP2 is as good as Firefox in terms of spyware resistance, because
1) you can remove the spyware AFTER it gets on your computer

No it doesn't say that, read the article. IE with SP2 is as good as Firefox at spyware resistance because it prevents it from installing in the first place.

2) it can be made more resistant by following a few steps

The following steps were how to make a non SP2 installation resistant, such as IE on Win2K.

They left out the part about turning up the IE security settings. I guess that's unnecessary?

It is not necessary with SP2 or if you just followed the other steps. The leading cause of auto installing spyware is not ActiveX like people have been led to believe but MSJVM being present on the system.
 
Yahoolian
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:54 pm

Umm, it certainly does say that. Reread the article.

SP2 eliminating auto install of activeX is far from "preventing it from installing in the first place," as you claim.

Also if the writer meant for the part about removing spyware to only apply to SP2, he certainly failed to make it clear.

I really doubt eliminating auto install of spyware in SP2 will magically make it more secure than Firefox.

With Firefox, there is always a prompt before installing extention, and by default only extensions from the mozdev web site, and the user must wait 2 seconds before allowing the extension to be installed. Also there is simply much less spyware targeted at Firefox, so you wouldn't even be prompted to install it, a vast majority of the time.

So everyone who can't/doesn't install SP2 get screwed over in terms of popups? And must go through more steps? Wouldn't switching to Firefox make much more sense?


So how do you know the leading cause of spyware?

Mastertech have you though about yourself being a member of the pro-IE religion? It certainly comes across that way, to me at least...
 
Mastertech
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:18 pm

Auto installing Spyware is the reason so many people are infected to begin with.

So everyone who can't/doesn't install SP2 get screwed over in terms of popups? And must go through more steps? Wouldn't switching to Firefox make much more sense?

Installing Firefox is another step. The steps involved for IE are simple.

I really doubt eliminating auto install of spyware in SP2 will magically make it more secure than Firefox.

No magic about it just install SP2, it just works or use the other steps.

So how do you know the leading cause of spyware?

I've chosen to solve the problem not run away form it.

Mastertech have you though about yourself being a member of the pro-IE religion? It certainly comes across that way, to me at least...

Why because I am providing facts? Hardly.
 
Yahoolian
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:25 pm

Elimination of auto install may be helpful, but pretty much impossible to install in one click is even more secure.

Simple in terms of what? Mouseclicks? Requiring the user to think more?

Installing Firefox and running it is 2 steps. Much easier than securing up IE, eh?

And can you possibly be so kind as to explain what is wrong with "running away from the problem" in this case?

Facts? Where did you learn that the MS JVM is responsible for most of spyware? Made it up to defend IE?
 
Mastertech
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:30 pm

Go look it up I'll bet you don't even run AV on your computer now that you have Firefox! LMAO.

Fact is Spyware on IE is efectively eliminated with some simple steps. I know its hard to accept, you will need to find some other BS to peddle Firefox.
 
Yahoolian
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:33 pm

Grasping for straws eh?

Simple steps, like having to click on no for every prompt to install spyware?

What does my use/lack of use of antivirus have to do with anything? I don't need to use antivirus, and I didn't when I was using IE. Try again please...

Care to explain to me your definition of 'facts'?
Last edited by Yahoolian on Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Mastertech
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:37 pm

What straws like you don't understand the exploits that most spyware uses to install or that I was right and you don't use an AntiVirus?
 
Yahoolian
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:39 pm

I don't use antivirus because I don't need it.

You were right because you say so? Please excuse me while I laugh hysterically.
 
Mastertech
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:40 pm

I don't use antivirus because I don't need it.
ROFLMAO! ( Fell out of my chair and can not get up) AHHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
jovin6
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:18 pm

Good old flame wars. Here's my data point:

I usually run Firefox, but for a few days a while ago suprnova.org (RIP) wouldn't load on the newest Firefox release, so I booted up IE to go to the site. After roughly 30 secs my AV told me I had picked up a trojan, and I had to permanently quarantine three files. I have SP2 and all the latest updates, I run Adaware and Spybot on a regular basis, and I'm on a college network so I never turn off Symantec Corporate Edition or Zone Alarm. And despite all that, getting IE to run half well is a pain in the ass that I just don't want to deal with. Every time I sit down at someone else's computer and see how many vulnerabilities their install of IE has, I'm totally freaked out. Of course, I could explain just what they need to do to keep IE reasonably safe, but for most common users it's so much easier to just install Firefox and learn how to use it.

That being said, I do agree with one point from the anti-Firefox side. If Firefox ever does capture true market share there will be a greater incentive for people to exploit it's vulnerabilities, and it'll certainly become a lot less safe than it is now. That's why I'm pro-Firefox and against spreading it. :D :D
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Mastertech
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:34 pm

With SP2 the Trojans you AV picked up were the unexecuted scripts in your Browser cache if you had SP2 installed, nothing was executed or had the potential to execute because they could not. The scripts were rendered useless without your AV. But hey you knew that right! And now that your running the super AV Firefox you should have no more Virus problems. ROFLMAO! Do me a favor and NEVER get a job in IT.
 
Yahoolian
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:37 pm

Yeah, you sure know what's going on on my computer...
 
Mastertech
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:40 pm

Yeah, you sure know what's going on on my computer

Hey with the all seeing Firefox AV I bet you sure do! Does Firefox support heuristics detection too?
 
Yahoolian
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:47 pm

@Mastertech
So you fail to respond to any of the points I have made? Way to speak 'facts.'

Do you happen to work in IT, by any chance? IE helps me pay me bills, so I'll defend IE?

@jovin6
Firefox certainly would be targeted more if it gains marketshare, but I'd wager the situation would be much better than the current one, because of a more secure default environment.
Last edited by Yahoolian on Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Convert
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:49 pm

The problem is that people argue on what works for them and what doesn’t work for them therefore firefox is crap or IE is crap. It doesn’t work like that. When people bring up general topics you can only argue on what is normal, or what is general for a specific audience.

What works for you won’t work for someone else. While some IE users are ok with having to keep it updated and be otherwise careful some Firefox users would beg to differ. While some firefox users are ok with a small list of incompatible sites some IE users would beg to differ.

Some firefox users push a little hard. Only because some people love to help other people and what better way than share a program that makes online browsing enjoyable (online “crud” has grown at epic proportions lately). Remember that these people who switched did so because something about IE was lacking for them. Sometimes IE didn’t even offer anything for these users so firefox was a huge improvement. This can easily add to their insistence.

In a general sense firefox is better. You just can’t get around all the features it offers and its out of the box security. Firefox is a great browser for our moms and dads. Even without the use of tabbed browsing (tabbed browsing is such a foreign thing to people who have used ie all their life) the sheer lack of malware that affects firefox makes it perfect for them. For people capable of keeping IE “safe” and being careful with their browsing habits it comes down to features and what your needs are.

*edit, is it just me or is Mastertech starting to sound like NvidaVirus.
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Yahoolian
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:52 pm

Yes, for certain people IE perhaps with some addons may work fine, but for the average user it's much better to use Firefox.
 
Mastertech
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:54 pm

So you fail to respond to any of the points I have made? Way to speak 'facts.'

First you have to make points.

Do you happen to work in IT, by any chance? IE helps me pay me bills, so I'll defend IE?

Do you happen to live at home with your parents and hang Firefox posters on the your wall?
 
Mastertech
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:55 pm

Yes, for certain people IE perhaps with some addons may work fine, but for the average user it's much better to use Firefox.

No its not for the average user it is better to install SP2 since it is required.
 
Convert
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:57 pm

Mastertech if you do not stop you are going to get your own topic locked. Just because you started this thread doesn't give you the right to insult people.
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Yahoolian
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:58 pm

So I haven't made any points? Is that another one of your 'facts'?

Yeah I live at home, as I'm 17. I guess I was spot on with that IT comment, as you haven't bothered to deny it.
 
Mastertech
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:01 pm

Yeah I live at home, as I'm 17.

And you don't understand how Spyware works, nor Viruses.... Case Closed.
 
Mastertech
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FireFox fans across the world, grab the Kleenex!

Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:16 pm

 
Convert
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:25 pm

IE users across the world, grab a box of Kleenexes

This was covered already in the other firefox vs IE thread so nothing new here. Also its not like firefox users thought they were 100% safe, they just know they are safer.

You can disable IDN support in Mozilla products by setting 'network.enableIDN' to false


Seems pretty simple to me :)

*Also this vulnerability is linked in the article in your first post. So I have to ask, WTH?
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Nem
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:50 pm

FireFox R0x0rz.


I was a typical IE user. I got hijacked. I went to firefox and haven't had another problem since. I am not in IT but i am savvy enough to read up on what needs to be done to make any browser more secure. I mean it isn't rocket science, a few google searches and your running a better browser no?

I dont have anything against ie but stuck with firefox because of the OTHER features it has the blow ie away. Firefox is a blast to use. the extensions alone make it superior in my mind.

Firefox has a TON of customizability and IE will never outpace it in that respect since just about anyone can write an extension that adds great usability to firefox.
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Yahoolian
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:12 pm

Mastertech I already adderessed that many posts ago.

Did you look at the criticality part? I guess not...


Disabling IDN in about:config does work for me on Firefox.
 
VTNC
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:01 pm

My keen sense of human nature indicates that someone isn't being brutally honest...

Mastertech, is there something you're not teeling us?
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Flying Fox
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:22 pm

Mastertech, can you shed some light on my popup problem with IE on Win2K? There's no XP SP2 as "an easy step" for me to block them. Note: I am not talking viruses here.
 
Jebus
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:35 pm

Go Firefox! :) BTW, for you guitar players out there looking for tabs. http://www.olga.net/ They have a link to add OLGA to your Google Search Box. Pretty sweet.
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just brew it!
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:56 pm

VTNC wrote:
Mastertech, is there something you're not teeling us?

Well, I do find it rather curious that both of the threads he's started are essentially plugs for a pair of web sites which appear to be related to each other... :roll:
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