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bhtooefr
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Dedicated Audi R10 vs. Peugeot 908 thread (Le Mans diesels)

Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:41 am

(Was "(Le Mans) Audi R10 racing the 22nd @ Prtlnd GP - V12 diesel")

(Was "(Le Mans) Audi R10 racing the 15th @ Utah GP - V12 diesel")

(Was "(Le Mans) Audi R10 racing the 17th @ 24HdM - V12 diesel")

(Was "(Le Mans) Audi R10 racing the 18th - V12 diesel")

(Was "(Le Mans) Audi R10 being announced today - V12 diesel")

Yep, Le Mans is getting diesel power.

http://www.audi.com/r10

Look at those TDI badges. Three of them visible, and there's another one on the other side:
Image

And look at that ENGINE!
Image

I threw this in sports because it's racing related...
Last edited by bhtooefr on Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:44 pm, edited 5 times in total.
 
monts
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:46 am

I've been waiting for someone to do a racing diesel engine, especially with advances in injection control recently. The inherent ecomony of a diesel could prove interesting in a race like Le Mans
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bhtooefr
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:58 am

In 2004, Taurus Racing ran a V10 diesel, and I've read that it got a lot better fuel economy than the gassers it was racing against... they didn't do too well, though, because of the fact that gasser trannies just AREN'T made for diesel torque...

http://www.perkins.com/perkins/cda/arti ... 49,00.html

Edit: FWIW, the Audi R10's going to be at Sebring... Speed Channel's got Sebring...

If only CBS covered it (yeah, right, like they'd dedicate 12 hours of airtime to Le Mans), or the R10 was running at the other ALMS races (the team that runs ALMS that has an R10 is going to run their old R8 at the ALMS races)...
Last edited by bhtooefr on Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:01 am

Well if anyone can do it its VAG. They do have a V10 TDI that makes 350hp and 600+ftlbs in a Touareg and A8.
 
bhtooefr
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:03 am

The 5.0L V10 TDI's in the Phaeton. The A8 has a 4.2L twin-turbo V8 TDI.
 
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:04 am

Engine spec talk makes my brain hurt. I step on the pedal, the car goes. That's all I need to know.
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bhtooefr
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:13 am

Here's all you need to know about VW diesels available in the US:

1.6L NA diesel: Step on the pedal, it gets louder and more smoke comes out the tailpipe that's rusting off (production was stopped in 1990 or 1991 for US models, IIRC. So, they're all really old cars. That's why the tailpipe's rusting off.)
1.6L ecodiesel: Step on the pedal, it gets louder.
1.6L turbo diesel: Step on the pedal, it goes.
1.9L (old Passats, all Jetta/Golf/NB TDIs) and 2.0L (new Passats) TDI: Step on the pedal, it REALLY goes.
V10 TDI: Step on the pedal, and immediately drive to the laundromat, because you just crapped yourself.

FWIW, I'm probably looking at a 1.6L NA diesel tomorrow, because they're cheap :P
 
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:22 am

Diesel cars are great until you have to change the diesel particulate filter ( anti pollution ) on a Citroen C5 2.2 HDi this has just cost me £300, no joke. Having said that I'm still looking at a Fiat Croma 2.4JTD 5 cyl next; 200bhp & 295 ft/lbs! :D
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bhtooefr
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:32 am

CHANGE the DPF?

I was under the impression that the deposits could be burned off the DPF no problem... :-?

Anyway, the car I'm looking at won't have a DPF. Heck, if I were to buy a NEW diesel car today (I want a 2006 Jetta TDI... (actually, I want a NEW 2003 Jetta TDI, for the older VE engine, and the A4 body style, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms)), it wouldn't have a DPF, due to our lack of ULSD. (Yep, youv'e gotta have ULSD to have a particulate filter...)
 
JustAnEngineer
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:11 pm

Let's not forget that VW's built in Mexico are now last in JD Power & Associates' initial vehicle quality survey.
 
SpotTheCat
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:25 pm

man, that engine must haul ass to even be considered for use.
 
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:29 pm

Pretty impressive. Bet Hance's cummins would come in a very distant last :lol: Be very cool to drive one..damn.
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Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:47 pm

Its 650hp and 880+ftlbs
 
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Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:15 am

What the dodge? He must have upgraded it. This is the description for the 2K6 Cummins

5.9L High-Output Cummins Turbo Diesel Engine wrote:
The Dodge Ram Heavy Duty Cummins Turbo is an inline 6 cylinder diesel engine that produces 610 pounds-feet of torque at 1,600 RPM and 325 horsepower at 2,900 RPM from 5.9 liters of displacement. With Common-Rail Direct Injection, this is one quiet diesel engine.


It looks like they only have the High-Output and standard diesel engine is no longer offered.

I hope they move one into the dakota soon, a "big" I4 diesel would be nice.
 
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Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:34 am

My Dodge is a 2005 . 325 HP and 610 Ft Lbs of Torqure . Well it was when it was stock anyway . now its close to 450 HP and 800 Ft Lbs
 
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Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:36 am

Nice. It's interesting that while some things (like paddle shifters) filter down from F1 racing, other things are filtering up.

This is off-topic, but what they heck: I would love to see an "unlimited" racing series, where the only constraint (other than safety issues) on the designs is that all forward thrust has to come from turning wheels (no jets or rockets, though turbines geared to an axle would be fine), and the vehicle must remain in contact with the ground; beyond that, anything goes. Make it last a couple of hours so that you likely have to refuel a couple of times, and make the track something other than an oval to make it interesting.
 
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Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:47 am

tfp wrote:
What the dodge? He must have upgraded it. This is the description for the 2K6 Cummins

5.9L High-Output Cummins Turbo Diesel Engine wrote:
The Dodge Ram Heavy Duty Cummins Turbo is an inline 6 cylinder diesel engine that produces 610 pounds-feet of torque at 1,600 RPM and 325 horsepower at 2,900 RPM from 5.9 liters of displacement. With Common-Rail Direct Injection, this is one quiet diesel engine.


It looks like they only have the High-Output and standard diesel engine is no longer offered.

I hope they move one into the dakota soon, a "big" I4 diesel would be nice.


IIRC hance put a chip in his which increases fuel pressure and adjusts timings. I think he said he gets 450/800 or something close to that.
 
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Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:50 am

It would be interesting, although putting a budget limit could make it interesting, seeing what each team would spend their money on could be fascinating epecially with a anything goes attitude for everything else.
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Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:03 am

SpotTheCat wrote:
IIRC hance put a chip in his which increases fuel pressure and adjusts timings. I think he said he gets 450/800 or something close to that.


I had been thinking about getting my Golf TDI chipped; for ~$400 I could go from 100HP / 177Ft-lbs to about 130/240, but I gotta really ask myself if I need anymoe tickets. I won't lie; it's SO tempting, especially since the car's about to be paid off.
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Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:15 am

monts wrote:
It would be interesting, although putting a budget limit could make it interesting, seeing what each team would spend their money on could be fascinating epecially with a anything goes attitude for everything else.
Yeah, that would be an interesting constraint. In fact, you could start with a fairly small budget (to get, say, university engineering departments involved) and then rachet it up with a new more "pro" league with the budget an order of magnitude higher, and then if that proves popular enough, another league on top of that. Seems ideal for the Discovery Channel, actually.
 
bhtooefr
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Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:44 am

That WOULD be interesting...

Of course, the idea behind the P classes (this is in P1) at Le Mans is to actually develop technologies that filter down to the passenger cars.

kvndoom, you do realize that there are tracks you can take that car to, instead of drive it on the road, right?
 
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Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:09 am

A few years I met one of the guys from HPA up in Langley and ever since I've toyed with the idea of having them do one of their beetles for me. I don't even like the beetle, but it's just so hilarious.... Actually, if I had them mod something it would probably be because I found an audi/GTI selling cheap because of a blown engine...
 
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Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:00 am

bhtooefr wrote:
In 2004, Taurus Racing ran a V10 diesel, and I've read that it got a lot better fuel economy than the gassers it was racing against... they didn't do too well, though, because of the fact that gasser trannies just AREN'T made for diesel torque...

http://www.perkins.com/perkins/cda/arti ... 49,00.html

Edit: FWIW, the Audi R10's going to be at Sebring... Speed Channel's got Sebring...

If only CBS covered it (yeah, right, like they'd dedicate 12 hours of airtime to Le Mans), or the R10 was running at the other ALMS races (the team that runs ALMS that has an R10 is going to run their old R8 at the ALMS races)...


Ahh yes someone else remembers that I was under the impression I was the only one who didnt think that audi was the first. I even sent and e-mail to the Auto Extremist a site that is usually pretty acurate.
http://www.autoextremist.com/page3.shtml#line

-Jeo

Edit: I also plan on going to my first ALMS race this year at Road America too bad the R10 most likely wont be there.
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bhtooefr
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Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:58 pm

Well, the Audi R10 has been tested.

http://americanlemans.com/News/Article.aspx?NewsID=1727 <-- Article about it having been tested, among other things
http://americanlemans.com/News/Article.aspx?NewsID=1728 <-- Driver's review of the R10

FWIW, did I mention that the technology that will filter down from this is all-aluminum diesel engines?

The technology that filtered down from the Audi R8, the R10's predecessor, was TFSI, which is the gasser equivalent to TDI. It's a direct-injection turbocharged gasser, as opposed to TDI, which is a direct-injection turbodiesel. The 2.0T uses it, and the 2.5 inline-5 uses FSI (no turbo, so it can run on regular unleaded).
 
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Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:11 pm

Damm, that R10 looks like a winner, but luck plays a big role in Le Mans 24-hours endurance race. More often then not most of contenders withdraw from the race early due to techincal problems that arise. It is pure torture for transmission and engine to crank out the high RPMs, torque and HP. The brakes have endure the constant usage for turns.
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Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:40 pm

Krogoth255 wrote:
It is pure torture for transmission and engine to crank out the high RPMs, torque and HP.

The few "facts" I've been able to find imply that this motor will be running in the 4000 to 6000 RPM range. Fast for a big diesel, but nothing compared to the 18000 to 20000 RPM turned by 2005-vintage F1 gas V10s. Cars at Le Mans spend lots of time close to redline; the Mulsanne Straight is about 3.5 miles long (once the ridiculous chicanes are finally removed).

You're on to the true key, namely, the drivetrain's ability to absorb the low-end torque of a diesel motor. Skimping on the tranny budget here will be fools' savings.

This is going to add a layer of interest long missing from Le Mans. Heck, I might even have to watch an hour or two on the Speed Channel.
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bhtooefr
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Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:54 pm

Well, this is Audi. They've got megabux to throw at this, and they've only been working with the TDI diesel since 1990, with the Audi 100 Avant. And, VWAG's been working with diesels since 1951, and selling them since 1977. SOMETHING tells me that they know how to handle the low-end torque ;) (it takes a chip and/or nozzles to get a Golf/Jetta/NB TDI to experience clutch slippage, and I haven't heard of trannies themselves having trouble with even a VERY heavily tuned car.)

Note that the Taurus Racing car last year had major tranny problems due to the low end torque that the V10 PD-TDI out of the Touareg put out.

Captain Ned: One of the articles I linked mentioned that it would run in the 3K-5K RPM area - slightly higher than the "normal" TDIs, which run 2K-4.5K. The R8 ran around 7K.
 
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Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:14 pm

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Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:28 pm

Man...would i love to have that motor in a pickup.wOOt
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bhtooefr
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Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:34 am

The race is tomorrow, and there's video of the car in practice:

http://web.rollins.edu/~jspitzer/r10clip1.mov

For those that have Speed Channel (not me), here's the schedule (it's all live):

For Eastern Time:

10:30-1:00 (first part)
2:30-6:30 (second part)
7:30-11:00 (third part)

Central Time:

9:30-12:00 (first part)
1:30-5:30 (second part)
6:30-10:00 (third part)

Mountain Time:

8:30-11:00 (first part)
12:30-4:30 (second part)
5:30-9:00 (third part)

Pacific Time:

7:30-10:00 (first part)
11:30-3:30 (second part)
4:30-8:00 (third part)

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