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Doctor Venture
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Could use some advice. Details inside.

Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:09 am

I use my current PC for both gaming, and work in my home office. The parts are about 5 y/o, but I can get my work done, and I can play most games reasonably well.

Tonight I decided to start searching around for space parts for my current rig, so in case a component went tits up, I could just swap it out, while saving up to build an Uber rig that should last about 5-6 years. I mistakenly thought "Well, these parts are pretty old, so they should be pretty cheap."  Boy, was I wrong.  Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places, but trying to find NEW spare parts would return results that were ridonkulous. For instance, I've got an old Sandy Bridge i7-2600K.  Some joker on NewEgg is trying to sell the non-K version of it for $414. Amazon was a little better, but they were still trying to charge $365 for it.  I can get a brand new i7-6700K Skylake for $330.  Nobody had any "new" versions of my motherboard, either. NewEgg had a refurb unit listed for $100, but it was out of stock.  The only in stock Asus Z68 based motherboards I could find at were all refurbs, and different models.  It got even more bizarre, when trying to find a spare for my Gigabyte HD-7950 Windforce. People were trying to sell it used anywhere from $350+ to over $500!   

At this point, it would just be cheaper for me to build a slightly modified version of the Sweet Spot build from the latest guide on here. I'll list off what I'm thinking about getting, and ask a few questions about some of the components:

Here's what I'm considering picking up:

i7-6700K
MSI GeForce GTX 1060 Armor 6G
Noctua NH-D15S
EVGA Supernova G2 750W PSU

(I've already got a really large system case, plenty of fans, a Samsung EVO 850 for my OS drive, and a bunch of HDDs, so I don't need to buy those).

One of these motherboards:
Asus Z170 Pro Gaming
Gigabyte GA-Z170X-UD3
Gigabyte Z170X-Ultra Gaming

One of these sets of RAM:
G.Skill Ripjaws V 32GB (2x16GB) DDR4-3200
G.Skill Ripjaws V 32GB (4x8GB) DDR4-3200
G.Skill Ripjaws V 64GB (4x16GB) DDR4-3200

Now, here comes the questions about the components where I listed multiple possible purchases:

1) I've had really good luck with Asus motherboards in the past, but the NewEgg reviews have been all over the map. Seems a lot of people were having their boards either DOA, or die shortly after install. The two Gigabyte boards didn't fair that much better, but I think the more expensive of the two seemed to have the least amount of complaints.  Trying to take it all in consideration, it just seemed like every Z170 based board was having problems. Anybody here experience issues with the models I listed, or were reviews just due to bad luck, incorrect install, etc...?   This isn't going to be the base for the Uber rig, and it'll only have 1 graphics card, so I don't need anything other than something that'll be rock solid stable, with plenty of connections for HDDs and USB peripherals.

2) As far as the RAM goes, I'd love to have 64GB, if possible, but going through the motherboard manuals to look at their qualified vendor list was...strange.  One of them even listed 128GB RAM support (8x16GB), even though there's only 4 slots. Another would only have some 4x4GB corsair modules listed under DDR4-3200 support.  I'm also a bit confused if I need to make sure the modules support XMP 2.0, and if Windows 7 even supports 64GB RAM. The Intel Ark page for the CPU says it does, and the motherboard manuals did sporadically list 64GB support (just in the non-3200 speed sections).  It's not mission critical to have 64GB, since I have 32GB now, but I would make it easier to run more tasks at the same time.  I also noticed in the sample build page, that the recommended RAM was the 2x16GB configuration. Was that because it was $35 cheaper, or to help with heat dissipation?


Oh, and I'm sorry I'm forgetting your username, but I'd like to give a shout out and a big "Thank You!" to the user in the comment section of the peripheral post from yesterday or today.  I checked out that Thrustmaster  T.16000M FCS HOTAS  and it looks like it would be perfect to play some games like Evochron Legacy, Wing Commander Saga, Elite, X3, and maybe Star Citizen, etc...  It's only going to be $130 when it rolls out, and Thrustmasters web page on it mentioned it used a lot of the same tech that my Warthog does (which I baby, since it's still $500).  I also found out their $90 rudder pedals will work with both my Warthog and the 16KM FCS, so I'll give those a shot, as well!  :D   
 
Topinio
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Re: Could use some advice. Details inside.

Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:03 am

On the RAM, I'd guess the reason for 2x16 is that it's not only cheaper but it's also fewer components to go wrong down the line, and less strain on the CPU's memory controller to run only 1 DIMM per channel. The flip side would be why do 4x8?

(The reduced load on the iMC from running only 1 DIMM per channel is beneficial when running at 3200, as that's way over the clock spec already -- for that CPU, it is 1866 or 2133 DDR4, so 3200 is +50% -- and doing that with 4 DIMMs is obviously more hard work. In this specific case, if the modules you're looking at are these, they are also +12.5% on voltage.)
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Firestarter
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Re: Could use some advice. Details inside.

Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:08 am

RE: RAM

if you want to overclock your system and get maximum performance, getting 1 module per channel is definitely the way to go. If you aren't going to overclock, then it doesn't matter that much. Using 4 modules for 2 channels will slightly reduce performance due to looser timings that your motherboard/CPU will automatically select, but if it's the only reasonable way to get the capacity you want it's a non-issue. If you have the choice between 2 and 4 modules and there's only a couple of $ between the 2 options, I'd go for 2 modules every time.


https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa366778(VS.85).aspx#physical_memory_limits_windows_7


Image
FWIW, Windows 10 Home supports 128GB
 
Airmantharp
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Re: Could use some advice. Details inside.

Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:02 am

I had my 2500K go belly up (been at 4.5GHz for 5? years), so did something similar- though I believe that the board is still fine (an ASROCK Z77 Extreme4, which I did search for an i7 3770K to drop into and ran into similar pricing hi-jinks).

6700K
2x16GB DDR4-3000 (get two sticks, as recommended above)
ASUS Z170-AR

And kept the rest of my system intact, which is mostly just a pair of GTX970's, some SSDs and HDDs, an older Define 3 case and an old 650W Seasonic. Even went to using the onboard sound over the X-Fi, which stopped working for whatever reason, and couldn't tell the difference with my HD555's.

As a note on your concerns:

1) Despite computer building being monumentally easy these days, people still make mistakes- and this is likely the largest source of motherboard issues. If you're careful (as you should be!), you shouldn't have issues, and if your new board is somehow compromised, you'll likely know right of the bat.

2) Don't worry too much about the vendor list. Vendors are all over the map when it comes to releasing new modules and kits based on supply of DRAM and competitor moves and motherboard manufacturers aren't going to keep up with all that. Unlike retail built systems and servers that have real (if arbitrary) limitations, typically if something is in spec it will work. If not, Newegg/Amazon/local retailers are very good about understanding the odd compatibility problem with returns and exchanges. Nearly everything comes with XMP profiles as well, and configuration is as easy as telling the board to use the profile, if it doesn't automatically.

The recommendation on TR's guide is usually based around typical usage and price; 32GB is pretty cheap, in the US$100-150 range depending on speed (more if you get crazy, of course), so it makes sense; not so much as your average gamer/power user actually needs 32GB, but that they could likely use more than 16GB, which itself is typically more than enough for most workloads.
 
EndlessWaves
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Re: Could use some advice. Details inside.

Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:28 am

Doctor Venture wrote:
I mistakenly thought "Well, these parts are pretty old, so they should be pretty cheap."  Boy, was I wrong.


Home stuff like K suffix processors go out of production almost as soon as they're replaced so it's not as if they were ever produced any more cheaply.

Doctor Venture wrote:
Tonight I decided to start searching around for space parts for my current rig, so in case a component went tits up, I could just swap it out, while saving up to build an Uber rig that should last about 5-6 years.
...
At this point, it would just be cheaper for me to build a slightly modified version of the Sweet Spot build from the latest guide on here. I'll list off what I'm thinking about getting, and ask a few questions about some of the components:


I'm not quite sure how your logic works there. If your computer works fine and you were planning just in case then wouldn't it make sense to keep saving up for the super system rather than spending the money now?

As for your questions:
1) Eh, they're user reviews. Good for picking up specific issues but entirely useless for estimating overall reliability. Try somewhere that provides more systematic data. Hardware.fr's latest biannual article on six month returns numbers for a major french retailer is due in another couple of weeks, but the one from May doesn't suggest any notable issues with Z170 boards, with the potential exception of the Asus Z170-A:
http://www.hardware.fr/articles/947-2/cartes-meres.html

2) Two ram sticks in a four slot board also means you only need to spend half as much when you upgrade. So if you do decide to go for 32GB now, choosing 2x16GB will allow you to buy another 32GB in future, instead of having to pay for 64GB and replace all four sticks.

You'll also likely find that games will be released that require DirectX 12 (and thus Windows 10) within the life of your build, and Windows 7 security patches stop in just over three years time.

I'd also go for an RX 480 instead of the GTX 1060 unless you already own a G-sync monitor so you can take advantage of DisplayPort Adaptive Sync.
 
JustAnEngineer
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Re: Could use some advice. Details inside.

Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:33 am

Doctor Venture wrote:
It would just be cheaper for me to build a new PC.  (I've already got a really large system case, plenty of fans, a Samsung EVO 850 for my OS drive, and a bunch of HDDs, so I don't need to buy those).

 You might consider a faster PCIe+NVMe SSD for your OS rather than SATA+AHCI.
$180 0.51 TB Intel 600p M.2 PCIe+NVMe SSD


Doctor Venture wrote:
One of these motherboards:
$148 Asus Z170 Pro Gaming
$160 Gigabyte GA-Z170X-Ultra Gaming

I like either of those motherboards.  In a similar price range, you might also consider:
$154 Asus Z170 Pro Gaming/AURA
$159 Gigabyte GA-Z170X-Gaming 5
These Z170 motherboards all have M.2 PCIe, USB3.1 Type C, Intel 219V ethernet, DisplayPort and no obsolete PCI slots.


Doctor Venture wrote:
G.Skill Ripjaws V 32GB (2x16GB) DDR4-3200
I'd love to have 64 GiB.  I noticed in the Tech Report System Guide sample build page that the recommended RAM was the 2x 16 GiB configuration.

Using two large DIMMs rather than four smaller ones may put less load on the memory controller, increasing stability and overclockability and allowing operation with tighter timings compared to a 4-DIMM installation.  It also leaves two slots free for adding memory in the future.  I'm not sure what applications you'll find that need more than 32 GiB today, but you definitely want 16 GiB DIMMs, whether you start off with two or four of them installed.
$5.53/GiB G.Skill Trident Z F4-3200C15D-32GTZ (DDR4-3200, 15-15-15-35, 1.35 V)
$6.33/GiB G.Skill Ripjaws V F4-3200C15D-32GVK / F4-3200C15Q-64GVK (DDR4-3200, 15-15-15-35, 1.35 V)
$5.94/GiB Corsair Vengeance LPX CMK32GX4M2B3200C16 (DDR4-3200, 16-18-18-36, 1.35 V)


$91 Windows 10 Home 64-bit OEM is the operating system that you want.
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Ifalna
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Re: Could use some advice. Details inside.

Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:43 am

Airmantharp wrote:
I had my 2500K go belly up (been at 4.5GHz for 5? years)

Sorry for the off topic question: how did the "going belly-up" express itself? I've never experienced a silicon-failure (exceeding thermal limits on a 1900XT due to a broken fan excluded) so I'm really curious.
The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
 
Airmantharp
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Re: Could use some advice. Details inside.

Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:45 am

Ifalna wrote:
Airmantharp wrote:
I had my 2500K go belly up (been at 4.5GHz for 5? years)

Sorry for the off topic question: how did the "going belly-up" express itself? I've never experienced a silicon-failure (exceeding thermal limits on a 1900XT due to a broken fan excluded) so I'm really curious.


Glad you asked!

Basically, a BSOD. Then, a BSOD upon boot. First troubleshooting measure was to roll it to stock, which got to desktop; then confirmed that in no way shape or form would the system boot with any overclocking or overvolting (had a 10% voltage boost). Then, while working at stock, got BSOD's doing anything hard; BF4 was a good instigator.

Final confirmation was with Prime95. One core would always fail, so it was time. Thought about an HD4790K and reusing my 4x4GB DDR3 1600, but decided that I'd rather up the RAM (got a photography hobby, if the sig didn't give it away, and 16GB can get stuffy), and at that point I went with a full platform upgrade.

Also, made sure to get the HT processor. The non-HT chips may keep up in benchmarks, but I actually use my computer :D.
 
just brew it!
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Re: Could use some advice. Details inside.

Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:01 am

EndlessWaves wrote:
Doctor Venture wrote:
I mistakenly thought "Well, these parts are pretty old, so they should be pretty cheap."  Boy, was I wrong.

Home stuff like K suffix processors go out of production almost as soon as they're replaced so it's not as if they were ever produced any more cheaply.

Yeah, stuff will typically get cheaper right around the time it goes EOL, then rise in price over the next few years as remaining stock gets bought up by people replacing parts which have died. Sometimes you can find a deal on eBay, but you never know what you're going to get buying used parts from 3rd party sellers.

Buying spare parts for an old system "just in case" is pointless unless the system has a critical feature you need that isn't available on newer hardware (e.g. lots of legacy PCI slots, compatibility with a legacy OS, or a native parallel port to connect a copy protection dongle for a specialized piece of software).

Doctor Venture wrote:
2) As far as the RAM goes, I'd love to have 64GB, if possible,

Unless you're routinely hosting multiple VMs 64GB is probably overkill. What do you do besides gaming?
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Ifalna
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Re: Could use some advice. Details inside.

Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:12 am

Airmantharp wrote:
Final confirmation was with Prime95. One core would always fail, so it was time. 

Interesting. Got a BSOD 2 years back, ever since then I run my 3570K at stock speeds. :D
Thanks. :)
The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
 
Doctor Venture
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Re: Could use some advice. Details inside.

Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:41 am

EndlessWaves wrote:
I'm not quite sure how your logic works there. If your computer works fine and you were planning just in case then wouldn't it make sense to keep saving up for the super system rather than spending the money now?

It's because I haven't decided exactly what parts I'm going to install in the super system.  I use a LOT of VMware VMs simultaneously, and I still need Windows to be somewhat responsive, since I'll have chat channels, SSH sessions, multiple configuration and command reference guides open in Acrobat Reader, as well a web browser, so I can double-check any errors I might get while building/running said VMs, as well as checking the news. I'm thinking the new rig will need a CPU with 10/20 or 12/24 core/threads, 128GB RAM, and what ever the top of line GPU is at the time, with a lot of RAM for itself, as well as being able to drive at least one of those large curved screens, or 2-3 4K monitors, since I need a lot of desktop real estate for everything I want to have open simultaneously.  And certain VMs and/or GNS3 topologies with more than just some old IOS and IOU images really need a LOT of system resources, to get a decent setup going.


2) Two ram sticks in a four slot board also means you only need to spend half as much when you upgrade. So if you do decide to go for 32GB now, choosing 2x16GB will allow you to buy another 32GB in future, instead of having to pay for 64GB and replace all four sticks.

That's why I was really hoping to get 4x16GB sticks, instead of just 2x16GB, since I could really use the extra RAM, due to having all those VMs running in Workstation, at the same time/


You'll also likely find that games will be released that require DirectX 12 (and thus Windows 10) within the life of your build, and Windows 7 security patches stop in just over three years time.

I'm going to wait until the super rig, to worry about DX12 games. I still play plenty of DX11 (or lower) PC games, and a lot of old titles off GOG, and some emulation.  None of those require anything above the Win7 x64 Ultimate install I have currently use. Once the super rig gets built, it'll definitely need Win 10.



I'd also go for an RX 480 instead of the GTX 1060 unless you already own a G-sync monitor so you can take advantage of DisplayPort Adaptive Sync.

My monitor supports neither GSync, nor Freesych. It's an older monitor ViewSonic 1080p monitor, with just a DVI and VGA connection. Even after the super rig gets build, this one will stay off the internet, just so I can play the older games I mentioned, and run some of the smaller VMs/topologies I do now. I had a few people recommend a GTX 1060 or 1070 in a different thread, and the build guide mentioned that the MSI GTX 1060 was really quiet, so I though I'd give it a shot.
 
NovusBogus
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Re: Could use some advice. Details inside.

Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:45 pm

Legacy PC hardware is usually expensive, if you think you need spares the time to buy it is when it's being phased out, not five years later. If you've already got a 2600K, especially an overclocked one, you may not notice much of a performance difference.

If your multitasking or VM usage is so serious business that you can utilize 64GB of memory, it may be time to seriously consider the 6+ core Broadwell-E or wait for Zen. 32GB and a quad should be just fine if you're not a massive VM fiend, and 2x16 is probably the safer combination for heavily OC'd memory. Personally I'd take 4x8 of PC-2400 or 2666, but whatever.

I love Asus, but they've been botching the QC lately so if one of their products has a lot of poor reviews there's probably a good reason for it. I'm a fan of micro ATX especially if you only need one GPU. They are usually a little bit cheaper.

Edit: Oh, something you need to keep in mind if you're planning to stick with Windows 7 is that Intel and AMD have both said that their future chips, including Zen and Kaby Lake, will not fully support anything older than Windows 10. Nobody knows what this means yet and it will probably still be possible to run it in at least some capacity, but Broadwell-E is the end of the line for 100% guaranteed compatibility. This is one of the things that pushed me over to the Broadwell-E camp.
 
just brew it!
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Re: Could use some advice. Details inside.

Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:55 pm

Doctor Venture wrote:
EndlessWaves wrote:
I'm not quite sure how your logic works there. If your computer works fine and you were planning just in case then wouldn't it make sense to keep saving up for the super system rather than spending the money now?

It's because I haven't decided exactly what parts I'm going to install in the super system.  I use a LOT of VMware VMs simultaneously, and I still need Windows to be somewhat responsive, since I'll have chat channels, SSH sessions, multiple configuration and command reference guides open in Acrobat Reader, as well a web browser, so I can double-check any errors I might get while building/running said VMs, as well as checking the news. I'm thinking the new rig will need a CPU with 10/20 or 12/24 core/threads, 128GB RAM, and what ever the top of line GPU is at the time, with a lot of RAM for itself, as well as being able to drive at least one of those large curved screens, or 2-3 4K monitors, since I need a lot of desktop real estate for everything I want to have open simultaneously.  And certain VMs and/or GNS3 topologies with more than just some old IOS and IOU images really need a LOT of system resources, to get a decent setup going.

This is a very strong argument for not throwing any more money at the current system, especially for "just in case" spare parts. In effect, you'd be buying really expensive insurance against hardware failures that might never happen, for a system that doesn't meet your needs anyway. What's the point of doing that?
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
CScottG
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Re: Could use some advice. Details inside.

Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:32 pm

Doctor Venture wrote:
I use a LOT of VMware VMs simultaneously, and I still need Windows to be somewhat responsive, since I'll have chat channels, SSH sessions, multiple configuration and command reference guides open in Acrobat Reader, as well a web browser, so I can double-check any errors I might get while building/running said VMs, as well as checking the news.

I'm thinking the new rig will need a CPU with 10/20 or 12/24 core/threads, 128GB RAM, and what ever the top of line GPU is at the time, with a lot of RAM for itself, as well as being able to drive at least one of those large curved screens, or 2-3 4K monitors, since I need a lot of desktop real estate for everything I want to have open simultaneously.  And certain VMs and/or GNS3 topologies with more than just some old IOS and IOU images really need a LOT of system resources, to get a decent setup going. 

My monitor supports neither GSync, nor Freesych. It's an older monitor ViewSonic 1080p monitor, with just a DVI and VGA connection. Even after the super rig gets build, this one will stay off the internet, just so I can play the older games I mentioned, and run some of the smaller VMs/topologies I do now. I had a few people recommend a GTX 1060 or 1070 in a different thread, and the build guide mentioned that the MSI GTX 1060 was really quiet, so I though I'd give it a shot.

Your want's are somewhat similar to my own.

I think you would be better off with a QEMU/Linux base solution (like UnRAID) and other systems on-top of that (like a Windows system) and a pass-through to your video card on the Windows machine to avoid a substantive performance penalty for gaming. (..Linus from Linus Tech Tips has done a few videos using UnRAID.) 
Ex.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuJYMCbIbPk

I'd also strongly prefer a Xeon system with ECC RAM for something like this. Really, unless you need multiple Windows machines running at the same time doing something intensive like both gaming as in the above video, you should be fine with 4 cores and 8 threads with a good "turbo" freq..
Ex.:
Intel Xeon E3-1275V5
2 sticks of UNBUFFERED 16 GB ECC RAM (..or 4 sticks if you really want a lot of machines running or are actually using a lot of RAM on one or more machines)
Asus P10 WS (..which is a really nice board btw, I'm working on a build with one right now.)
 
Doctor Venture
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Re: Could use some advice. Details inside.

Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:32 pm

just brew it! wrote:
This is a very strong argument for not throwing any more money at the current system, especially for "just in case" spare parts. In effect, you'd be buying really expensive insurance against hardware failures that might never happen, for a system that doesn't meet your needs anyway. What's the point of doing that?

Having 64GB alone would be a huge help with the amount of virtual machines I run, and the sizes some the of the network designs get, but my current setup is already maxed at 32GB.
What I really need, would be an i7-6950X and 128GB of DDR4, but those two items alone are going to cost $2610. Once I start adding in all the other necessary parts (and not cheap out on them), the cost is going to skyrocket pretty fast.

I might just swap out some of the components in my current rig for some of the ones I listed (and get a RX-480 STRIX and that nice 32" curved freesync monitor), and then just save up the coin for a Xeon-based server, and a Windows 10 PC for gaming.  I still want to hang onto this one, as an offline Windows 7 rig, for playing my current games, and then maybe watch some TV shows or movies off my NAS.

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