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CampinCarl
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New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:45 pm

All,

Well, I've had about enough of sitting on this gigantic Antec P280 case. I've decided that now is the time to build myself a new computer.

I'll be reusing the 500GB 850 Evo that has served dutifully in the existing machine (signature). I will also reutilize the Xonar sound card for the time being until I can get around to getting a proper DAC to go along with my decent AMP + Fluance SX6 speakers. The Acer K272HUL will stay my main display, and I will continue with my Logitech G15 (Original! Needs a good cleaning though...), G35 Headset, and Steelseries Diablo 3 mouse.

The new system components I'll be acquiring:
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: AMD RYZEN 7 1700X 3.4GHz 8-Core Processor ($411.70 @ Amazon)
CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-U12S SE-AM4 CPU Cooler ($63.64 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-AB350M-Gaming 3 Micro ATX AM4 Motherboard ($104.91 @ Newegg)
Memory: Corsair Vengeance LPX 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-3200 Memory ($137.67 @ Newegg)
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($53.11 @ Amazon)
Video Card: Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1070 8GB Mini ITX OC Video Card ($382.48 @ Amazon)
Case: BitFenix Phenom M Midnight Black MicroATX Mini Tower Case ($101.98 @ Amazon)
Power Supply: SeaSonic G 550W 80+ Gold Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply ($74.26 @ Amazon)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro OEM 64-bit ($147.68 @ Amazon)
Total: $1477.43
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2017-04-17 22:29 EDT-0400

I'm looking for any and all suggestions, but specifically:
Memory
Since this is a Ryzen system, memory had to be selected carefully. I consulted the RAM list for the AB350m motherboard, and while that specific kit is not listed, the 64GB kit IS (CMK64GX4M8B3200C16). I'm assuming this would be satisfactory. Has anyone seen any detailed benchmarks that compare R7's w/ 16-16-16 timing to 14-14-14 timing?

GPU
This seems like an awkard time to buy. Vega is just around the corner, and a 1070 has been out for well over a year. I'm debating simply hanging onto my 7950 until Vega releases, and then either buying a ~$400 Vega (assuming there is one!), or just buying something else at that time. Anyone have some specific thoughts on this?

Case
I wanted a nice, simple matx case. I developed a short list of options, including the TJ08B-E, Fractal Mini, Node 804, and the listed Phenom M. The Phenom M is approximately the same size as the TJ08B-E, though it is shorter and shallower, but wider. (1845.494 in^3 for the TJ vs 1882.883 in^3 for the Phenom). The Node (2506.947) and Mini (2480.341) seemed substantially larger, despite the fact that the all fit about the same graphics card length (300mm). Has anyone worked with the Phenom M? Is it a complete and utter disaster of a case?

Thanks all for your help!
Gigabyte AB350M Gaming-3 | R7 1700X | 2x8 GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4-3200 (@DDR4-2933)| Samsung 850 Evo 500GB SSD | Gigabyte HD7950 3GB | Win 10 Pro x86-64
 
JustAnEngineer
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:40 pm

CampinCarl wrote:
What do you intend to do with a puny 1 TB hard-drive? 3 TB drives offer better value. If you need less than 1 TB, consider an SSD.
i7-6700K, NT06-Pro, GA-Z170N-Gaming5, 32 GiB, RX Vega56, SM951, 5TB HDD, Blu-ray, FTZ01, SX600-G, C32HG70, RK-9000BR, MX518
 
CScottG
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:57 pm

..1700 is the better value, and when overclocked - about the same.

-I'd also wait on the GPU.

Case:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L6Vk3pznl0
 
Welch
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:10 pm

On the RAM front MindBlank on YouTube did Ryzen RAM speed tests and included timing info. His conclusion, timings matter very little, but speed continued to scale with little to no end in sight all the way to 3600.

Case Corsair 350D is pretty damn good for around 70-100. Corsair has a lot of other cases you may like that are resonably priced and just a general joy to build in.

Yes, for the love of all that is good and holy, skip the 1tb HDD. I'd grab a 500gb 850 EVO and be done, or spring for 1TB if you really need it. Using an HDD in a modern rig is akin to buying a Ferrari and then going to the dump to pickup a pair of used, balled tires to put on it. You'll be stunting the performance of all of that hardware by not a little bit, but enough to make you think something isn't working right.

Wait for Vega and possible price slashes. A 7950 is much more competent than people give it credit. I'm still sporting a 7850 which is about 40% slower than your card. I'm guessing Vega is going to be similar in the GPU market as Ryzen is to the CPU industry.

Do you need 32gb or 64gb? You would know it if you truly needed it. If not, then 16gb is a safe bet unless you want to run faster speeds with 4 DIMMs and don't think patches and BIOS updates will allow for RAM to run 3200+ down the road by the time you'd want 32gb. If you have that distrust, then get 2x16 now that will run 3200+ and don't be as concerned with the timings as they don't yeild much performance, not like speed.
I'm running G.Skill Flares X 3200. It auto ran at 2400 and I manually changed it to 3200 and it wouldn't boot. Changed the DOCP enabled and it auto changed it to 3200 with advertised timings 14-14-14-34. I noticed when running without DOCP that it undervolted to 1.2v, with it enabled it ran at 1.35v. So when manually changing the speed I think the motherboards don't know to apply higher voltage automatically and go with the SPD info from the DIMMs. So a lot of people attempt to change the speed, it doesn't post and they assume the RAM, Motherboard or CPU isnt working right. You can manually change those settings like voltage, speed and latency or let the profiles do it, then do it manually if you want to undervolted/overclock further.
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LostCat
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:12 am

Eh, I don't dig HDs either but SSHDs aren't bad (I just put a 2TB Firecuda in my box.) I'd go with a Firecuda instead of a normal HD. They can always add SSDs later, but SSHDs are a good option for the price. It accelerates what needs it and ignores what doesn't.

As far as Vega it does sound nice but does anyone even know when it's coming? Heh.
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
blahsaysblah
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:34 am

If you just need a little cold storage, get 2.5" laptop drives. Less heat/noise/space.

Do you really need the extra but slower 8 threads? For most people the i7-7700k is better.

That >>one fan<< 1070 will never live up to its name. Most decent mini-ITX builds can take any two fan solution (my Silverstone SG13B, footprint is one piece of paper, has a big two fan 1060 inside).

Windows 10 OEM is locked to one PC. Will likely be a hassle to move to new computer, change parts... And no Windows 11 supposedly...

I looked at overclocked RAM a little before, double check they are getting 3200Mhz the good way. 16GB plus decent SSD is good for gaming, you would know if you needed more.

I would wait for Vega and see how it pans out if you can. its not like there are any super deals out there.
 
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:55 am

blahsaysblah wrote:
If you just need a little cold storage, get 2.5" laptop drives. Less heat/noise/space.

He said one drive so I'm guessing heat and space aren't a problem. Plus, with an SSHD heat and noise are much less of an issue.
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:46 am

LostCat wrote:
blahsaysblah wrote:
If you just need a little cold storage, get 2.5" laptop drives. Less heat/noise/space.

He said one drive so I'm guessing heat and space aren't a problem. Plus, with an SSHD heat and noise are much less of an issue.


I switched to four quiet 2.5" drives for cold storage instead of 3.5". There is a huge difference. All inside my tiny mini-ITX case... I've switched to one mirror pair as I never used a lot of the extra capacity. If its not active storage and not capacity issue, low heat/noise 2.5" drives are a better value. I turned the extra drives into real cold storage(external case).

That bulky ancient dinosaur 3.5" drive might as well be a zip drive. It doesn't belong next to a shiny new Ryzen CPU.
 
LostCat
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:28 am

mini ITX is a different beast. People using normal sized mobos and cases get no real benefit from going to 2.5.

Plus, he's got one drive. It's not going to be cold storage.
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
CampinCarl
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:32 am

Thanks for the quick replies all!

JAE: It's a 1TB drive because I already have a NAS (which I'll be expanding from 4TB here shortly) that does most of my other bulk storage. I'd buy an even smaller one, but I don't feel it's worth it. I mostly use it to store games I don't play frequently/don't care about load times on, documents, downloads...that kind of thing. My current system is set up the same way, and I think I'm using about half of that 1TB after several years of accumulating junk.

All: Re: Storage for the system in general: Yes, I realize having no SSD is stupid. That's why, as stated in the OP, I'll be re-using the 500GB 850 Evo that is in my current main system.

Welch: Thanks for the heads up about the memory clocks. I'll make sure I take that into account.
The 350D though looks pretty darn big (~2530 cubic inches) though...Trying to keep it under ~32L (2000 cubic inches).
Gigabyte AB350M Gaming-3 | R7 1700X | 2x8 GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4-3200 (@DDR4-2933)| Samsung 850 Evo 500GB SSD | Gigabyte HD7950 3GB | Win 10 Pro x86-64
 
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:43 pm

CampinCarl wrote:
All: Re: Storage for the system in general: Yes, I realize having no SSD is stupid. That's why, as stated in the OP, I'll be re-using the 500GB 850 Evo that is in my current main system.


Yeah guys, try reading a bit, jeez.

Anyways, will this also be a productivity machine, or focused on games? If just games, despite it being decently close, the i7-7700k is the better gaming choice. If need all the threads and cores, then Ryzen seems to be the way to go. I'm all for Ryzen, but I like the straightforward way Intel processors "just work" at this point.

As for cases, I really like the Fractal Design Define S. Really sleek case. Should have everything you need, and is about $30-40 cheaper.

Going with the i7-7700k and Define S, and probably cheaper RAM, saves about enough to bump up to a GTX 1080 for even smoother frames.
Gaming: i5-3570k/Z77/212 Evo/Corsair 500R/16GB 1600 CL8/RX 480 8GB/840 250gb, EVO 500gb, SG 3tb/Tachyon 650w/Win10

HTPC: i3 3225/H77/8gb g.skill 1.25v/1+2TB HDD/Asus BR/Silverstone GD05B/Antec 380w/Win10
 
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:04 pm

southrncomfortjm wrote:
Yeah guys, try reading a bit, jeez.

Hey these days I'd be perfectly fine not using an SSD at all, since this SSHD is awesome. Considering how much money I spent on that stuff as an early adopter I am firmly in the SSD camp, they just aren't really a necessity to me anymore (I still have a few in use of course, but still.)

So yeah, I have difficulty not skimming walls of text when I'm busy, but I was discussing the 'EVERYTHING MUST BE SSD' mantra so common around the interwebs, alongside not knowing why anyone would actually care what size their drives are in a mATX or ATX build.
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
Welch
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:41 pm

So what sort of performance are you getting out of your SHDD? Read/Writes? Not sure Random IOPS really translate into anything meaningful on an SHDD either, or does it?

I was also under the impression that a lot of the SHDD manufacturers had quit making them or were scaling back. It seems like a middle of the road but you'd get the worst of both worlds while getting a few of the bad as well, primarily reliability.

That's why I'd much rather suggest getting a smaller SSD and a larger HDD. Then again I skipped over the SHDD realm and would be curious to hear about it's merits from someone who has been using one long term.
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JustAnEngineer
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:01 pm

Welch wrote:
I'd much rather suggest getting a smaller SSD and a larger HDD.
That's my strategy, too. In the OP's case, his storage needs are small enough that maybe he should consider a medium-large SSD and forego the HDD completely. With 1 TB and 2 TB hard-drives costing about the same, I can't see bothering with a 1 TB drive.

My itty-bitty mini-ITX gaming PC has a ½ TB SSD and a 5 TB HDD.
i7-6700K, NT06-Pro, GA-Z170N-Gaming5, 32 GiB, RX Vega56, SM951, 5TB HDD, Blu-ray, FTZ01, SX600-G, C32HG70, RK-9000BR, MX518
 
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:49 pm

Welch wrote:
So what sort of performance are you getting out of your SHDD? Read/Writes? Not sure Random IOPS really translate into anything meaningful on an SHDD either, or does it?

I was also under the impression that a lot of the SHDD manufacturers had quit making them or were scaling back. It seems like a middle of the road but you'd get the worst of both worlds while getting a few of the bad as well, primarily reliability.

That's why I'd much rather suggest getting a smaller SSD and a larger HDD. Then again I skipped over the SHDD realm and would be curious to hear about it's merits from someone who has been using one long term.

I just had a post nearly finished and chrome effed up on me when I accidentally hit f12 or something so forgive the lack of polish here.

Non cached reads and writes are about 210-150 megs. Benchmarking would be tedious because of the cache so I'm not going into that, but application load times are about as fast as an SSD once cached.

IOPS always seemed meaningless to me since I don't run servers or torture test stuff.

Both Seagate and WD are making newish ones (2015-2016) for 2.5 or 3.5" and the Firecuda I bought is Seagates newest line. -> http://www.seagate.com/support/internal ... ecuda-3-5/

This is the only decent review I found showing iops and whatever, but it's from Seagates previous gen stuff http://www.storagereview.com/seagate_de ... shd_review

Honestly, if these were a thing when SSDs were newer I would've saved a **** ton of money. I don't really need any more SSDs so I think this is my last drive for a long time.
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
CScottG
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:42 pm

The problem with the SSHD is the cache volume: unless you "frequent" the same files then a small cache volume isn't going to do you much good.

That Firecuda only has 8 gig of NAND - there are even a few games today that would overwhelm that, and that's just one "application".

It really depends then on what's on that drive and how often you'll be accessing it. :oops:


-on the "plus" side, the pricing seems decent in a 2.5" form-factor, and depending on how it's implemented, the 128 gig of DRAM cache could enhance drive longevity.



..ideally I would have liked to have seen a cache buffer like this:

1. 512 meg of DRAM
2. at least 8 gig of of large process (older) SLC NAND
3. at least 64 gig of MLC NAND

I'd pay half-again as much for a drive with that cache setup vs not paying at all (at the Firecuda's price per TB) for the Firecuda.
 
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:51 pm

CScottG wrote:
That Firecuda only has 8 gig of NAND - there are even a few games today that would overwhelm that.
Mass Effect: Andromeda is currently taking up 50,095,616,000 bytes on my hard-drive.
i7-6700K, NT06-Pro, GA-Z170N-Gaming5, 32 GiB, RX Vega56, SM951, 5TB HDD, Blu-ray, FTZ01, SX600-G, C32HG70, RK-9000BR, MX518
 
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:57 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
CScottG wrote:
That Firecuda only has 8 gig of NAND - there are even a few games today that would overwhelm that.
Mass Effect: Andromeda is currently taking up 50,095,616,000 bytes on my hard-drive.



I'm betting cut-scene "movies", lots of them. :lol:
 
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:13 pm

CScottG wrote:
It really depends then on what's on that drive and how often you'll be accessing it.

Steams main dir is, my music/docs/pics/videos/onedrive crap, any games I want on here but don't really play all that often (this is especially indie stuff, racing, or online games.) I'd have the OS on there, but I didn't really feel like doing the transfer or reinstall.

I'd be perfectly comfortable putting Andromeda on there as it doesn't need to be entirely cached to load faster than an HD, but as is I'm at 63.5gb free on my 240gb SSD and 50 free on my 480gb with 535GB free on the 2TB Firecuda. I no longer have to micromanage anything, which I was doing constantly between my external HD and SSDs. If I stop playing something that's on the SSDs I'll move it over to the SSHD and put something else on there, but I don't have anything else that needs to be on them at the moment.

Honestly, I don't even feel like I need the SSDs for most things anymore, though I'm obviously not planning on getting rid of them either.
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
CampinCarl
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:46 am

I'll have a longer update tonight, but I wanted to put a quick note in. The motherboard (last piece I was waiting on!) was delivered yesterday evening. I'm behind on the benchmarks I wanted to cover on my old system before I move the SSD and GPU to the new system (I plan on doing old vs. new vs. (new && new GPU) comparison, will have a write up done in a few weeks when I get my new system up, and then I'll produce a supplement when I buy a new GPU).

I started the install process on the new system. And, well, it's not going perfectly. Almost, but not quite. I'll upload a picture when I get home, but the location I chose for the H60i water cooler is...slightly incompatible with the DRAM slots on the AB350M gaming. I wanted to mount the water cooler in the bottom of the Phenom M so that I can keep the classic bottom-intake, rear/top-exhaust pattern. There are two spots for 120MM fans there, but the rear-most mounting spot is close enough to both the PSU extension cord and the CPU itself that I don't think the tubes will flex that far.

I therefore placed it in the mounting spot closest to the front. Alas, this runs afoul of the DRAM slots by approximately 1mm. Seriously, that's it. MAYBE 2mm. I can't decide if I want to try a different airflow pattern (perhaps rear + bottom intake, top exhaust?), remove the heatspreaders from the DRAM, or simply file down the H60i's frame just a tad bit...but I'm going to have to do something. I also tried to mount it up AFTER installing the DRAM, but it exerts enough force on the DIMM that I'm uncomfortable, plus since it's the radiator it would be transferring heat directly to the heatspreader, which is also not good.

The good news is that there's ~1 inch of clearance (vertically) between how the PSU is mounted in the front of the case and my nice long 3GB 7950, so that won't be a concern.
Gigabyte AB350M Gaming-3 | R7 1700X | 2x8 GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4-3200 (@DDR4-2933)| Samsung 850 Evo 500GB SSD | Gigabyte HD7950 3GB | Win 10 Pro x86-64
 
blahsaysblah
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:45 am

You try running the DIMMS in 2+4 instead of 1+3? Your board says it can do 3200 across all four with proper DIMMS.
 
CampinCarl
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:20 pm

So, here's my update for tonight, in Imgur Album form:
Let's just say it didn't go all that well.

Image

Time to drink.
Last edited by CampinCarl on Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Gigabyte AB350M Gaming-3 | R7 1700X | 2x8 GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4-3200 (@DDR4-2933)| Samsung 850 Evo 500GB SSD | Gigabyte HD7950 3GB | Win 10 Pro x86-64
 
CampinCarl
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:20 pm

blahsaysblah wrote:
You try running the DIMMS in 2+4 instead of 1+3? Your board says it can do 3200 across all four with proper DIMMS.


It's a good thought, but the radiator interferes with all the DIMM slots and not just the first 1 :(
Gigabyte AB350M Gaming-3 | R7 1700X | 2x8 GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4-3200 (@DDR4-2933)| Samsung 850 Evo 500GB SSD | Gigabyte HD7950 3GB | Win 10 Pro x86-64
 
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:33 pm

I do not envy you the headache you will have when you awake. Until then, rest well and dream of smaller DIMMs.
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:35 pm

Jeez... build from Hell!
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:45 pm

Sucks. I hate it when stuff like that happens. It's the kind of thing non-technical people never understand either. You say "no really, it should have worked!" and they look at you like you're some kind of mad scientist.
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LostCat
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:37 pm

I thought radiators went outside the case or sommat.
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:21 pm

LostCat wrote:
I thought radiators went outside the case or sommat.

They can (and often do), but not always.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:40 pm

just brew it! wrote:
LostCat wrote:
I thought radiators went outside the case or sommat.

They can (and often do), but not always.

Yeah bummer about the OP problem with the memory sticks. I really wish manufacturers would stop putting large heat sinks on memory modules.
 
CampinCarl
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Re: New Ryzen 7 mATX Build

Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:36 pm

Hey all, just so everyone is aware, I got everything up and running last night. I won't say it went perfectly, of course...

I'm working on a write up that will encompass both some of the things already discussed here and new stuff. I will also update the write-up with additional benchmarks in a couple months when I buy a new video card (and, honestly, probably a 1TB M.2 SSD too).

Some preliminary data though:

Cinebench shows (average of 3 runs), 10.12% improvement in the single-thread score, +3.53% for four threads, +34.18% for eight threads, and +139.25% for 16 threads (yes, I ran 16 threads on my 8-thread 3770. I was hoping the data would actually be WORSE, but I probably just didn't oversubscribe it enough). OpenGL score (same GPU, mind you!) is up 13.16%.
Gigabyte AB350M Gaming-3 | R7 1700X | 2x8 GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4-3200 (@DDR4-2933)| Samsung 850 Evo 500GB SSD | Gigabyte HD7950 3GB | Win 10 Pro x86-64

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