Personal computing discussed

Moderator: JustAnEngineer

 
KamikaseRider
Gerbil
Topic Author
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:24 pm
Location: Brazil

Basic Upgrade for failing system

Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:11 am

Hello fellow gerbils!

I'm starting to have some audio problems in my MB and instead of just buying an audio card, I was thinking of upgrading the whole MB, CPU, RAM, specially since this build is now 7 yrs old.
The current build is:

i7-870
P7P55D-Deluxe
8Gb RAM (4x2gb) DDR3 1600MHZ
GTX 960 SSC EVGA
SSD 512GB MX100 (Love this drive)
Corsair 650W
Now, my plan is to jump in the Ryzen hype train, but keep some of the parts(GPU, SSD, power supply and case). I use this build mainly for games @1080p and the 960 serves me well.
My doubts regard:

1. Ryzen 1600 or 1500X? Are the extra cores worth it over the frequency drop? I don't really do much more than gaming and web browsing.

2. RAM
2.1 Speed: 2400 or 3200?
2.2 Size: 8gb is enough for gaming right?
2.3 Kit: Patriot Viper Elite 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR4 2400MHz https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820220996

3. MB - Two Options
3.1 GIGABYTE GA-AB350M-Gaming 3 mATX https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813145002
3.2 MSI B350M Gaming PRO mATX https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813144019

Thoughts?
 
Vhalidictes
Silver subscriber
Gerbil Jedi
Posts: 1776
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:32 pm
Location: Paragon City, RI

Re: Basic Upgrade for failing system

Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:11 am

Given how long you keep your systems, I'd at least consider the 1700-non-x. More cores doesn't really matter now, but in 7 years it very well could.

In your use case I'd say that more RAM is preferable to faster RAM, but memory timings actually matter for Ryzen builds, so I don't have a clear recommendation there beyond "you always need more RAM that you think you will". That said 8GB is fine currently, you can always add more later.

I personally have had bad experienced with MSI in the past, but more recently I've seen a quality drop in Gigabyte boards too, so the brand is a toss-up. Looking at the features, it's a clear win for the Gigabyte. 4 DIMM slots and 2 more USB ports back-panel and everything else looks equivalent.
 
blahsaysblah
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 580
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:35 pm

Re: Basic Upgrade for failing system

Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:52 am

1. 1600X if you dont plan to overclock, 1700 if you do, except, there are additional costs with OC, you need good cooler, sometimes more/better case fans,... all that adds up to, maybe just better off with stronger Intel. And at 1700 price level, i'd wait to see how Coffee Lake pans out first. Price cuts,... closer to holidays.

2. 8GB is right at edge of having a negative impact right now with heavier games and multi-tasking. 10-12GB would be the forget about it mark. So for 4-6 year build i would definitely go 2x8GB. Gaming benchmarks show from 0% to 10% for 2400 to 3200 increase at the more CPU limited 1080p resolution. If game is GPU limited it has little impact. I'd go for it, if its the same $120 vs $150 price difference here in US for 2x8GB 2400 vs 3200Mhz. Just make sure comments say good compatibility with Ryzen.

3. Only thing i can say is having the M.2 slot under the GPU is the old lazy, slap it in easiest place without having to do any retesting on PCB design. Get a board that has it in a good place. Also, if you get 2x8GB, i would consider any 2 DIMM slot board perfectly fine. So can even look at mini-ITX if you want.
 
KamikaseRider
Gerbil
Topic Author
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:24 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Basic Upgrade for failing system

Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:08 pm

Thanks for the input guys.

Unfortunately, due to budget constraints I really need to choose between the 1500X or the 1600. I usually don't take this long to upgrade my systems. So between the two which one would you guys pick? My budget is $375 max for everything (forgot to mention that). I'm buying everything on newegg.
I might go for 8gb and wait for prices to drop before adding another 8.
As for the MB, it seems Gigabyte is the best choice between the 2.
 
Vhalidictes
Silver subscriber
Gerbil Jedi
Posts: 1776
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:32 pm
Location: Paragon City, RI

Re: Basic Upgrade for failing system

Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:20 pm

1500X if you're worried about cost.

Keep in mind that the Ryzen XFR/Base Clocks thing is a smokescreen. Zen is Zen is Zen, they are all fabbed together and are all manually overclockable. You're going to get very roughly the same clocks regardless of which model # you buy.
 
blahsaysblah
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 580
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:35 pm

Re: Basic Upgrade for failing system

Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:02 pm

If you're comfortable with it, Silicon Lottery has the 1600X for $200 with Paypal. Seems not much market for vetted AMD processors Ryzen processors. Likely to sell out fast as i doubt they had much inventory to begin with before fire sale.

Just realize, you need better system and luck to do 4x4@3200 vs 2x8@3200. And if price is issue, i would go 2x8GB slow or 2x4Gb slow or 2x4GB fast, in that order. (edit: not clear, high hertz RAM only gives a tiny bump, unless you absolutely know you will get APU in future, else save money for elsewhere)

Also, remember, AM4 socket will be viable into 2019/2020. So check out the video outputs,... if you decide to upgrade to an APU processor or something else. Not like Intels one year wonders.
 
blahsaysblah
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 580
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:35 pm

Re: Basic Upgrade for failing system

Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:40 pm

You know when i had sound problem with my Q6600 system, all i did was buy a $8 USB audio adapter. That will get rid of any scratchiness,...
The CPU and the chip inside the adapter do all the work. You dont have to buy a full fledged audio card.

Im 90% certain thats exact one i bought, but maybe do some research, things have improved in past 4-5 years.
 
DPete27
Silver subscriber
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3616
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:50 pm
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Re: Basic Upgrade for failing system

Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:07 pm

- Check out the AsRock AB350M Pro4 for $75 also (I like the slot and M.2 layout better, USB Type C port, and it has more VRM phases). IMO, never buy mobos with 2 RAM slots unless its for a short-term/budget build.
- Go with the Ryzen 1600 if possible.
- RAM. Hey, budget is budget. RAM prices are pretty high and this is the easiest component to upgrade. 8GB is enough for now, but 16GB gives you a little breathing room. If you can't squeeze $125 for 2x8GB kit then I think you're right in going with 8GB for now and adding more later. 3200MHz is as fast as you'll accomplish, but don't discount the possibility of saving a few bucks with a 3000MHz kit. Negligible performance hit from 3200MHz IMO.

That AsRock board, Ryzen 1600, and 8GB RAM = $365. Swap in the Gigabyte board you linked = $370
Main: i5-3570K, ASRock Z77 Pro4-M, MSI RX480 8G, 500GB Crucial BX100, 2 TB Samsung EcoGreen F4, 16GB 1600MHz G.Skill @1.25V, EVGA 550-G2, Silverstone PS07B
HTPC: A8-5600K, MSI FM2-A75IA-E53, 4TB Seagate SSHD, 8GB 1866MHz G.Skill, Crosley D-25 Case Mod
 
synthtel2
Gold subscriber
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 831
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:30 am

Re: Basic Upgrade for failing system

Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:00 pm

If you want to keep this system another 7 years, 1600 all the way, and 16GB would also be highly preferable (though possibly outside the budget). RAM speed matters, but under budget constraints it's secondary to core count and RAM size, especially since it may take pricey Samsung B-die to get turn-key 2933+.

If 16GB stretches the budget too far, I'd make sure the mobo and CPU are good for the long haul, get cheap RAM, and plan on upgrading the RAM again before DDR4 goes out of style (2020-ish last I heard). Hopefully RAM prices won't be so ridiculous at that point, though with this cartel behavior it's tough to say.
 
KamikaseRider
Gerbil
Topic Author
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:24 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Basic Upgrade for failing system

Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:37 pm

Thanks for the tips guys.

I'm not keeping this system for 7 years, i'll upgrade it in 2 years time. (or less, probably a new GPU next year)
I've made my mind and i'm going with:

Gigabyte GA-AB350M Gaming 3
Ryzen 5 1500X
Patriot Viper Elite 8gb (2x4gb) 2400
For a grand total of $349.97

Really appreciate the help.
 
JustAnEngineer
Gold subscriber
Gerbil God
Posts: 18297
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Heart of Dixie

Re: Basic Upgrade for failing system

Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:57 pm

KamikaseRider wrote:
That is the motherboard that I would choose for my own Ryzen build.

KamikaseRider wrote:
It's a shame that your budget won't stretch to the Ryzen 5 1600X, but that would be $45 more. It'll probably be several more years before many games make use of more than the eight threads that the Ryzen 5 1500X can handle.

KamikaseRider wrote:
I'd like to get at least 2x8 GiB of PC4-25600 or PC4-24000, but memory prices are rather high at the moment, and memory is definitely the easiest thing to upgrade later. Having a paltry 8 GiB of RAM is going to impact your performance pretty quickly and those 4 GiB DIMMs are such low density that they won't be very useful once you upgrade. However, at just $63, this isn't a huge investment to throw away in a year or two.
i7-8700K, H100i v2, RoG Strix Z370-G Gaming, 16 GiB, RX Vega64, Define Mini-C, SSR-850PX, C32HG70, RK-9000BR, MX518
 
DrDominodog51
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 696
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:23 pm
Location: Silicon Valley

Re: Basic Upgrade for failing system

Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:50 pm

DPete27 wrote:
it has more VRM phases

The ASRock B350 Pro4 has a 3 phase VRM (not a 6 phase).
"Look real close cause strobe lights lie" -Anonymous
 
DPete27
Silver subscriber
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3616
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:50 pm
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Re: Basic Upgrade for failing system

Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:51 am

Really? There are 6 chokes along the left side of the CPU socket and 3 above. Counting chokes is the traditional method of determining how many phases. Did they do something atypical?
**You're right, it's 3+3 phase.**

Interesting explanation (view 2:30)
Obviously the steps are more coarse on a 3-phase than 4-phase (typical for all other mATX B350 boards I see on newegg), but AsRock is still spreading the load out to 6 total VRM "sets" which should lower the draw on each set of components. Obviously there are MOSFETS and chokes with varying current capabilities and I don't know/care how the components AsRock chose compares to other's 4-phase designs, so it's difficult to tell if this implementation is better, or just combines twice as many components that are half as strong. AsRock's method also spreads the thermal load out to a greater area which increases the effectiveness of the VRM heatsink. Given that AsRock clearly made a conscious decision to buck the "trend" I'm sure they tested against things like vdroop.
TL;DR. I'm not sure if the 25% less "phases" really matters that much. Typically CPU loads aren't terribly "bursty" during typical heavy use (gaming/compiling/compute). The video I linked shows that AsRock's VRM has plenty of capability to OC 8-core Ryzen. Again, not knowing the quality of other board's VRMs, maybe this board is only as good as the others in terms of capability. Given the pros I listed above, I'm not sure I'd say it's worse necessarily.
Main: i5-3570K, ASRock Z77 Pro4-M, MSI RX480 8G, 500GB Crucial BX100, 2 TB Samsung EcoGreen F4, 16GB 1600MHz G.Skill @1.25V, EVGA 550-G2, Silverstone PS07B
HTPC: A8-5600K, MSI FM2-A75IA-E53, 4TB Seagate SSHD, 8GB 1866MHz G.Skill, Crosley D-25 Case Mod
 
DrDominodog51
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 696
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:23 pm
Location: Silicon Valley

Re: Basic Upgrade for failing system

Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:27 am

DPete27 wrote:
Really? There are 6 chokes along the left side of the CPU socket and 3 above. Counting chokes is the traditional method of determining how many phases. Did they do something atypical?

If there are more than 8 "phases" on a VRM (such as the 6+3 advertised on the B350 Pro4), it must do something atypical.

No VRM controller ever used on consumer motherboard or GPU supports more than 8 phases. The manufacturer can either put multiple chokes in parallel on each phase (extremely unlikely), use doublers (very likely), or use two different VRM controllers (unlikely).

DPete27 wrote:

Buildzoid and his Youtube channel are a great source for VRM information. He does a fairly good job calculating current capabilities of a VRM and noting strange VRM designs.

Edit: Whether or not a 3 phase VRM with doublers is better than a 4 phase, really depends on what the motherboard is being used for. For general usage, the worse voltage regulation shouldn't have any noticeable effect. The additional current capability of the 3 phase VRM is useless for general usage as well.

At the end of the day, this was a marketing decision by Asrock to say "WE HAVE MOAR PHASES" without them actually being able to do anything.
Last edited by DrDominodog51 on Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Look real close cause strobe lights lie" -Anonymous
 
MileageMayVary
Gerbil Team Leader
Posts: 294
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:18 am
Location: Baltimore

Re: Basic Upgrade for failing system

Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:04 am

KamikaseRider wrote:
Hello fellow gerbils!

I'm starting to have some audio problems in my MB and instead of just buying an audio card, I was thinking of upgrading the whole MB, CPU, RAM, specially since this build is now 7 yrs old.
The current build is:

i7-870
P7P55D-Deluxe
8Gb RAM (4x2gb) DDR3 1600MHZ
GTX 960 SSC EVGA
SSD 512GB MX100 (Love this drive)
Corsair 650W
Now, my plan is to jump in the Ryzen hype train, but keep some of the parts(GPU, SSD, power supply and case). I use this build mainly for games @1080p and the 960 serves me well.
My doubts regard:

1. Ryzen 1600 or 1500X? Are the extra cores worth it over the frequency drop? I don't really do much more than gaming and web browsing.

2. RAM
2.1 Speed: 2400 or 3200?
2.2 Size: 8gb is enough for gaming right?
2.3 Kit: Patriot Viper Elite 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR4 2400MHz https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820220996


Sound a lot like what I did. Keep the drives and GPU, replace the rest (could have kept the PSU and Case but I didn't).

8GB ought to be enough for gaming but I would grab 16. Also I would get faster memory or overclock it as the memory speed is also the speed between the CCXs (and 2400 vs 3200 are not your only options there).

I think the 1500x should serve you well. I've tested gaming at 4/8 and 4/4 instead of 6/12 cores/thread and haven't noticed a big difference, though World of Warcraft, World of Warships, and DOOM aren't super CPU intensive and I've got a 60hz monitor anyways.
Main rig: Ryzen 1600, R9 290@1100MHz, 16GB@2933MHz, 1080-1440-1080 Ultrasharps.
 
synthtel2
Gold subscriber
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 831
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:30 am

Re: Basic Upgrade for failing system

Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:23 pm

My ASRock AB350 Gaming-ITX/ac has another VRM setup like that: six inductors, six diodes on the back side of the board, but the capacitors are hidden between the back port cluster and an overhang on the VRM heatsink, and there are only three of them.

2400 vs 3200 aren't really the only options, but without B-die high speeds may take some tweaking. 2666 is the highest I'd shoot for if not intending to tweak and not spending for B-die.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests