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The Egg
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Re: Upgrading to CoffeeLake, or should I wait ?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:50 pm

Microcenter recently gave the i7 8700k and i5 8600k another small price cut, down to $379 and $229.
 
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Re: Upgrading to CoffeeLake, or should I wait ?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:58 pm

I have a 4.3 GHz 2500K + 1080 machine and a 4.8 GHz 7600K + 1080 Ti TVPC. Sure the 7600K is a lot faster in various ways, but really I have a hard time saying that it's all that apparent in games. I played some pretty beefy recent games on the 2500K including Dishonored 2 / DotO and Prey.

I think it's more important to have the fastest CPU possible if you have a high refresh monitor and want to get 120 fps in current games.
 
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Re: Upgrading to CoffeeLake, or should I wait ?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:17 pm

My current gaming rig is based on a 3770K. My current fav game is Ghost Recon: Wildlands. While Wildlands maxes out my 3770K I still get 80 FPS @ 2560x1440 because I have a good GPU (GTX 1080).

I'd focus less on the CPU and more on the GPU if gaming beyond 1920x1080:

https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/i ... ew,20.html

While it is unnecessary to wait for the next round of CPUs it may be prudent to wait for Nvidia's next gen of gaming GPUs.
 
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Re: Upgrading to CoffeeLake, or should I wait ?

Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:24 am

End User wrote:
My current gaming rig is based on a 3770K. My current fav game is Ghost Recon: Wildlands. While Wildlands maxes out my 3770K I still get 80 FPS @ 2560x1440 because I have a good GPU (GTX 1080).

I'd focus less on the CPU and more on the GPU if gaming beyond 1920x1080:

https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/i ... ew,20.html

While it is unnecessary to wait for the next round of CPUs it may be prudent to wait for Nvidia's next gen of gaming GPUs.

swaaye wrote:
I have a 4.3 GHz 2500K + 1080 machine and a 4.8 GHz 7600K + 1080 Ti TVPC. Sure the 7600K is a lot faster in various ways, but really I have a hard time saying that it's all that apparent in games. I played some pretty beefy recent games on the 2500K including Dishonored 2 / DotO and Prey.

I think it's more important to have the fastest CPU possible if you have a high refresh monitor and want to get 120 fps in current games.

As far as I know, those games are single player games. CPU is stressed out and effects overall performance on multi-player scenerios. Espacially, something like 64 player Battlefield 1 map shows extreme load on CPU's and creates stutters. I'm quite sure it's the CPU because same amount of RAM and same GPU does not generate stutter on my friend's haswell. I'm not sure why it's this way as BF1 is actually GPU bound on performance wise. Could be the net code, interactions in the map, physics, network traffic or combinations of all of those..
As my gaming is mostly multi-player FPS or realm vs. realm MMO, unfortunately I need to spare some money for a good CPU.

Now ASUS and Intel is up for a cash back promotion; when you get i7-8700k with let's say, Z-370E, they give you 50 euroland bucks back. Even with outrageous prices in here, it's becoming fair rates compared getting things from USA+shipping... As there are no signs of z390 yet, the offer is tempting...
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Re: Upgrading to CoffeeLake, or should I wait ?

Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:58 am

Just this week I've had the experience of upgrading someone who was gaming on a 2500K. I found them a used GTX 970, doubled their RAM to 16GB and threw an SSD in there that I had lying around.

Don't get me wrong; They were thrilled with the upgrade from mechanical storage and their GTX 460, but I know from experience that the GTX 970 should run better than it did.

I'm 100% convinced it was a thread shortage on the CPU and given that developers have been working on the baseline hardware (PS4, XB1) having eight threads for several years now, it seems dumb to buy anything with less than that. Despite CoffeeLake's obvious gaming prowess, that means the i7 is the only option for a build that is designed to last. It's just not a good idea to buy anything less than that any more, even if the CoffeeLake i5's look attractive. Time will tell, but I'm going to bet that in a few years the 6-thread count will come back to haunt the current i5s, just as is it did the 2C/2T Pentium anniversary and more recently the i5 quad cores.

And although the IPC and clocks are lower, that is why the mediocre gaming chips like the Ryzen5 1600 are still looking pretty appealing.
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Re: Upgrading to CoffeeLake, or should I wait ?

Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:15 am

There may be more to it than just the four-core four-thread thread limit. Sure, Intel slowed down development and dribbled out performance improvements to desktop processors at a slow pace when AMD wasn't challenging them, but even at +5% per generation, a lot of time has passed since the Core i5-2500K was released seven years ago.
https://ark.intel.com/compare/52210,971 ... 685,126684

How is the old 4C/4T Sandy Bridge Core i5-2500K performing versus the 4C/8T Core i7-2600K vs. the 4C/4T Core i3-8350K versus the 6C/12T Coffee Lake Core i7-8700K in your favorite games?
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Re: Upgrading to CoffeeLake, or should I wait ?

Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:32 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
Just this week I've had the experience of upgrading someone who was gaming on a 2500K. I found them a used GTX 970, doubled their RAM to 16GB and threw an SSD in there that I had lying around.
Don't get me wrong; They were thrilled with the upgrade from mechanical storage and their GTX 460, but I know from experience that the GTX 970 should run better than it did.

I'm 100% convinced it was a thread shortage on the CPU and given that developers have been working on the baseline hardware (PS4, XB1) having eight threads for several years now, it seems dumb to buy anything with less than that. Despite CoffeeLake's obvious gaming prowess, that means the i7 is the only option for a build that is designed to last. It's just not a good idea to buy anything less than that any more, even if the CoffeeLake i5's look attractive. Time will tell, but I'm going to bet that in a few years the 6-thread count will come back to haunt the current i5s, just as is it did the 2C/2T Pentium anniversary and more recently the i5 quad cores.

And although the IPC and clocks are lower, that is why the mediocre gaming chips like the Ryzen5 1600 are still looking pretty appealing.

My current setup is identical to his upgraded system. I agree that the 2500k is holding back the 970 somewhat under certain circumstances, disagree that lack of threads is the main culprit. Most games are still all about the IPC. Compare benchmarks of Kaby vs Coffee (where the Kaby parts have fewer cores/threads but higher clocks) and the Kaby do better in the majority of titles. The games which do benefit from more threads seem to prefer 6/6 over 4/8, and see diminishing returns (if any) after 6.

It's likely a combination of his Sandy having a 25-30% IPC disadvantage compared to Skylake/+/++, lower memory bandwidth (1333/1600 DDR3), and being several hundred Mhz lower if he's running stock. If he's stock clocks at 1080p, yes, he's CPU-limited with a 970 in some titles. A decent OC would alleviate a good amount and put him back to GPU-limited.....if you're comfortable OC'ing someone elses rig while being their tech support.
 
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Re: Upgrading to CoffeeLake, or should I wait ?

Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:16 pm

Sandy Bridge has legendary longevity, but it is indeed starting to show its age. If for no other reason, later Windows versions come with more CPU-distracting bloat than they did in 2011 which will definitely have an impact on performance. If you play AAA games, especially multiplayer ones, all the DRM, anticheat, chat/matchmaking, "ecosystem" API calls and other assorted cruft is also going to be a factor.

So upgrading to Kaby or Coffee does make good sense. GPU still governs high resolution performance but a GTX 960 or better should be good enough to run most of what's out there reasonably well. And for GPU, definitely wait for next generation because they should be launching fairly soon.
 
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Re: Upgrading to CoffeeLake, or should I wait ?

Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:17 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
There may be more to it than just the four-core four-thread thread limit. Sure, Intel slowed down development and dribbled out performance improvements to desktop processors at a slow pace when AMD wasn't challenging them, but even at +5% per generation, a lot of time has passed since the Core i5-2500K was released seven years ago.
https://ark.intel.com/compare/52210,971 ... 685,126684

How is the old 4C/4T Sandy Bridge Core i5-2500K performing versus the 4C/8T Core i7-2600K vs. the 4C/4T Core i3-8350K versus the 6C/12T Coffee Lake Core i7-8700K in your favorite games?


My reference 970 example is my HTPC which is running a 3770K at stock speeds. That thing is as smooth as silk when gaming, hence why I raised the point in the first place. His 2500K was running at 4.2 which isn't exactly a large overclock but it's a 27% clock gain and more than enough to make IPC or clock a relevant argument against my 3770K. As part of the upgrade I also upgraded Windows 7 to Windows 10, so it was effectively a clean OS install too.

Games that didn't seem to run as smoothly on his machine whilst running fine on mine were Witcher3, GR Wildlands, RotTR and PUBG. Admittedly, PUBG is really hard to compare machines from match to match, but the whole experience just seemed stuttery more often on the 2500K.
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Re: Upgrading to CoffeeLake, or should I wait ?

Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:21 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
My reference 970 example is my HTPC which is running a 3770K at stock speeds. That thing is as smooth as silk when gaming, hence why I raised the point in the first place. His 2500K was running at 4.2 which isn't exactly a large overclock but it's a 27% clock gain and more than enough to make IPC or clock a relevant argument against my 3770K. As part of the upgrade I also upgraded Windows 7 to Windows 10, so it was effectively a clean OS install too.

Games that didn't seem to run as smoothly on his machine whilst running fine on mine were Witcher3, GR Wildlands, RotTR and PUBG. Admittedly, PUBG is really hard to compare machines from match to match, but the whole experience just seemed stuttery more often on the 2500K.

Weird. 4.2 is decent enough that there shouldn’t be much of a performance delta between it and a 3770K with a 970. Maybe his rig has something else going on.

On a related note, it would be interesting to revisit how modern games respond to different numbers of cores/threads with some scientific testing. Since nothing meaningful has changed with the architecture since Skylake, we should be able to get the full range of 2/2, 2/4, 4/4, 4/8, 6/6, 6/12 and do a fairly close apples-to-apples with everything clocked the same.
 
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Re: Upgrading to CoffeeLake, or should I wait ?

Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:02 am

The Egg wrote:
On a related note, it would be interesting to revisit how modern games respond to different numbers of cores/threads with some scientific testing. Since nothing meaningful has changed with the architecture since Skylake, we should be able to get the full range of 2/2, 2/4, 4/4, 4/8, 6/6, 6/12 and do a fairly close apples-to-apples with everything clocked the same.


That would make a great TR article, actually.

DigitalFoundry have quite a few video reviews and articles covering just this. The one that sticks in my mind is the Ryzen 6C/12T vs Kaby 4C/4T and 4C/8T options - including overclocks. They pick a whole bunch of games and compare side-by-side videos with FRAPS/FCAT realtime FPS plots so you can see the peaks and troughs.

The takeaway conclusion I had from a selection of those videos was that a when there are enough threads, clock*IPC is still the deciding factor, but that some games (not all games) just need more threads. Even videos comparing Ryzen to Ryzen show that when all other factors are equal and both are clocked at 4GHz on the same RAM, a 6C/12T Ryzen5 is slower than an 8C/16T Ryzen7 simply because hyperthreading/SMT is inferior to a true core - and that several games are threaded beyond 6 threads of the Ryzen5. Similar tests between the i5 and i7s with otherwise matched conditions prove that the i7 is better than the i5, whether that's the quad or hex-core variants.
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Re: Upgrading to CoffeeLake, or should I wait ?

Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:25 am

allreadydead wrote:
As far as I know, those games are single player games. CPU is stressed out and effects overall performance on multi-player scenerios. Espacially, something like 64 player Battlefield 1 map shows extreme load on CPU's and creates stutters. I'm quite sure it's the CPU because same amount of RAM and same GPU does not generate stutter on my friend's haswell. I'm not sure why it's this way as BF1 is actually GPU bound on performance wise. Could be the net code, interactions in the map, physics, network traffic or combinations of all of those..

GPU-bound on the average frame, CPU-bound (or memory bandwidth bound) on the worst-case frames; a CPU upgrade will hardly help the FPS numbers, but may make gameplay much nicer regardless. It's a common pattern, but multiplayer on Frostbite seems more prone to it than most.

It's reasonable for a typical 2500K to be able to turn out a typical frame quicker than a 970 can render it, but not be able to keep up when a streaming job is hogging a core, a shader has to be compiled, a pathological arrangement of physics objects is burning too many cycles, environment destruction forces recalculation of a lot of data that would normally be static, or anything of that nature. GPU workloads are certainly variable too, but based on far fewer factors and generally staying within much tighter bounds.

Chrispy_ wrote:
I'm 100% convinced it was a thread shortage on the CPU and given that developers have been working on the baseline hardware (PS4, XB1) having eight threads for several years now, it seems dumb to buy anything with less than that. Despite CoffeeLake's obvious gaming prowess, that means the i7 is the only option for a build that is designed to last. It's just not a good idea to buy anything less than that any more, even if the CoffeeLake i5's look attractive. Time will tell, but I'm going to bet that in a few years the 6-thread count will come back to haunt the current i5s, just as is it did the 2C/2T Pentium anniversary and more recently the i5 quad cores.

And although the IPC and clocks are lower, that is why the mediocre gaming chips like the Ryzen5 1600 are still looking pretty appealing.

What with two cores of consoles being mostly OS/background stuff, it's probably better to think of consoles as having six cores for this purpose (that's the target devs design to). PCs have similar background loads of course, but with so much per-core power it's less critical where and when that work runs. 6C6T (requiring a few more context switches) still seems preferable to 4C8T (making some game threads share cores).

That said, games are nowhere near their Amdahl's law limits, and you certainly won't find me betting against the future-proofing value of more cores or threads.
 
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Re: Upgrading to CoffeeLake, or should I wait ?

Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:15 am

allreadydead wrote:
Hello,

I'm one of those guys who still uses SandyBridge based system. I'm actually lucky to have a system that lasted 5+ years and not that lucky because I couldn't afford a 2600k back then and settled with a 2500k. My sample was quite happy on 4.5k GHz with 60ish temps under load (degree celcius). I can and recently pushed it to 4.8 GHz (5 GHz for a just couple of benchmarks) @1.38V. I took it to 4.8 because I had stutters on Battlefield 1. However, my system was not that stable so moved back to 4.5 GHz... However, I cannot get same stability that I used to have. I think something (Mobo or RAM) is slowly dying out..

As a fellow Sandy Bridge user I can understand.
A warning for upgrading right now... RAM is at a horrendous high. I just upgraded to Coffee Lake i7-8700k from a Sandy 2600k.
I am very happy with it so far, but I have yet to stress it... I went all out with it and even did a 1TB NVMe m.2 drive (Sammy EVO 960)

The fun fact is I am redeploying my Sandy in a new case for my girlfriend as an upgrade (from an AMD A10)
 
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Re: Upgrading to CoffeeLake, or should I wait ?

Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:27 am

synthtel2 wrote:
...lots of good info...


Just wanted to say that I agree.
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