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joselillo_25
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Re: VGA upgrade possible for photo editing and 4k playback ?

Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:02 pm

BeachNut wrote:
joselillo_25 wrote:
is much better use a card that can get power from the PSU to prevent problems in an old mobo. Also I prefer AMD because this software helped me to solve this problem and to create different profiles with I really doubt I could accomplished in a Nvidia card without the help of 3rd party software.


I probably won't try over-clocking for now, but powering a VGA from the PSU makes sense to me (although I am a newbie here). Is there any particular card equivalent to the 1050 that you'd recommend ? It will be a nice birthday present for my 12 year old CPU !

Thanks.


I am not very good on specific gpu, sure someone here could tell you better about a cheap card that has newer codecs acelerated and is powered by the PSU . I need to run my rx460 at half speed due this mistake I made. Adobe has also a supported PS card table

https://helpx.adobe.com/ca/photoshop/kb ... d-faq.html
 
Waco
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Re: VGA upgrade possible for photo editing and 4k playback ?

Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:04 pm

Our point is that it's a bad idea on old chips, and damaging an LGA socket is NEVER fun.

Besides - why use pin mods when you can just change the FSB in the damn BIOS? I ran my Q6600 back in the day at well over 333 MHz FSB along with a subsequent drop in multiplier...no pin mods needed.

Further - it's not even applicable to the use cases presented here. A new GPU is all that is needed.
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Glorious
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Re: VGA upgrade possible for photo editing and 4k playback ?

Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:23 pm

joselillo_25 wrote:
https://hubpages.com/technology/Get-mor ... ore-Q6600#
but you need 333mhz memory because it increases the fsb speed.


Look... that's not... I know what a "pin mod" is... what?

uh. How I do I put this?

I mean, using jewelers glasses and the hands of a surgeon to apply red nail polish (or whatever) isn't remotely "super easy" and it's not "easy" at all when you completely misrepresent what it involves, even conceptually (it's not actually the pins, and it's actually not just "paper"--how would "paper" adhere?).

And this is a misconceived endeavor on so many levels, plenty of which have already been discussed with you.

---

Just No.

No.
 
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Re: VGA upgrade possible for photo editing and 4k playback ?

Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:26 pm

Waco wrote:
Our point is that it's a bad idea on old chips, and damaging an LGA socket is NEVER fun.

Besides - why use pin mods when you can just change the FSB in the damn BIOS? I ran my Q6600 back in the day at well over 333 MHz FSB along with a subsequent drop in multiplier...no pin mods needed.

Further - it's not even applicable to the use cases presented here. A new GPU is all that is needed.



IMO, LGA mods were only necessary if you wanted to run a Socket 771 chip onto a Socket 775 motherboard, otherwise it is a waste of time and effort.
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Ifalna
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Re: VGA upgrade possible for photo editing and 4k playback ?

Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:43 pm

BeachNut wrote:
I was thinking I'd have to change my board if I needed HDR and 10 bit color support to fully utilize the monitor. Hope I'm wrong...


IIRC, the consumer 10xx cards from Nvidia can display 10bit in full screen directX based applications (games) but they product segment off 10 bit under windows. Quadro professinal cards are expensive.
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Topinio
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Re: VGA upgrade possible for photo editing and 4k playback ?

Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:32 pm

BeachNut wrote:
joselillo_25 wrote:
is much better use a card that can get power from the PSU to prevent problems in an old mobo. Also I prefer AMD because this software helped me to solve this problem and to create different profiles with I really doubt I could accomplished in a Nvidia card without the help of 3rd party software.


I probably won't try over-clocking for now, but powering a VGA from the PSU makes sense to me (although I am a newbie here). Is there any particular card equivalent to the 1050 that you'd recommend ? It will be a nice birthday present for my 12 year old CPU !

Thanks.

If you want to go with AMD, which I wouldn't advise in this specific case (despite running all AMD at home at the mo, RX 580 and RX Vega 56), you should get the RX 560. Though the GTX 1050 3GB or GTX 1050 Ti 4GB would be better.

Radeon RX 400 series cards drew too much power through the motherboard slot, RX 500 series fixed this. Having an auxiliary PCIe power connector is beyond reference design for the RX 560, and usually indicates that the clocks have been set higher and the TDP is ~100 W rather than the <75 W of the reference design -- you'd have to downclock back to reference to get it under 75 W. While it might draw that through a combination of the slot and auxiliary connectors, it won't be drawing nothing through the motherboard.

Maybe take a look at some of these?

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/am ... 54-14.html
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/am ... 707-5.html
https://www.techspot.com/review/1430-ra ... page8.html
https://graphicscardhub.com/best-graphi ... rendering/
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synthtel2
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Re: VGA upgrade possible for photo editing and 4k playback ?

Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:03 pm

Topinio wrote:
Radeon RX 400 series cards drew too much power through the motherboard slot, RX 500 series fixed this.

Wasn't that just a problem with the 480 reference board?

My slot-power-only 460's sensors claimed it was on-spec, at least. The main problem was that the stock V/F curve was pushing way too much voltage (as usual for AMD), and it could fit an extra 100 MHz within the power budget when I cut the voltages closer.
 
Topinio
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Re: VGA upgrade possible for photo editing and 4k playback ?

Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:56 am

synthtel2 wrote:
Wasn't that just a problem with the 480 reference board?

My slot-power-only 460's sensors claimed it was on-spec, at least. The main problem was that the stock V/F curve was pushing way too much voltage (as usual for AMD), and it could fit an extra 100 MHz within the power budget when I cut the voltages closer.

Maybe that's right and only the 480 had the problem, I'm possibly not remembering it well as it was a couple of years ago now.

I did find at https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/am ... ,4622.html that the reporting to the OS wasn't showing the problem, i.e. page 1 says

AMD is right when it says that the Radeon RX 480 GPU is a true 110W GPU. The average GPU-Z measurement result comes in exactly at that point. But that's not the whole story. After all, there’s still the rest of the graphics card, including other components that consume power. And then there are power losses as well.

and page 2 says

Our measurements show that the motherboard’s PCIe slot averages 6.74A at 12V. This means that our numbers exceed the norm by 1.24A, a significant 23 percent. And this is already counting from the absolute maximum allowed by the PCI-SIG’s specifications.

The conclusion of that article, that this shouldn't be a problem, is not one I'd want to test on a motherboard I owned or was responsible for, and certainly not on one which has seen 11 years of duty already!

Edit: this RX 460 article has a card drawing 89 W in Doom and 104 W in Furmark, of which 46 W and 54 W respectively is through the motherboard.

The specific card reviewed does have a PCIe 6-pin connector which provides the rest of the needed power, which shouldn't even be necessary per spec (it's supposed to be a < 75 W card); this is despite it not really being an OC model, 1220 MHz max in 'OC mode' and the per-spec 1200 MHz in 'Gaming Mode'.

This suggests to me that the design of the RX 460 might be like the 480, a bit off. That RX 480 article said the GPU+board was using 164 W playing Metro Last Light when the spec said 150 W (and tools reported just the 110 W of the GPU itself), this RX 460 one has it taking 89.5 W in the same game despite the AMD spec calling it a '< 75 W' GPU+board. It's running at a sub-5% boost OC, and ASUS saw fit to add a 6-pin auxiliary...
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synthtel2
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Re: VGA upgrade possible for photo editing and 4k playback ?

Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:31 pm

IIRC there was some margin left in the readings I was seeing.

I'd be more surprised if a 460 with aux power wasn't going beyond 75W. Mine on pure slot power couldn't even hold its nominal base clock of 1090 MHz without tweaks. Even if a manufacturer of a card with aux power cared about the spec sheet's accuracy enough to think sticking to 75W was a desirable goal, which I already doubt, the temptation to use some of that extra power must be pretty strong. It isn't any trouble to have different power limits for each.

The 1200 MHz nominal boost clock on a slot-power-only 460 is completely divorced from reality. On the stock settings, mine was good for about 1060 on average once warmed up, and with tweaks ~1150 was all I could squeeze out of it.
 
DragonDaddyBear
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Re: VGA upgrade possible for photo editing and 4k playback ?

Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:40 pm

joselillo_25 wrote:
Glorious wrote:
joselillo_25 wrote:
you only will need a piece of paper to cover 2 pins of the cpu. Is super easy.


...That.. Uh.

...that doesn't, like, sound easy?

I assume you don't actually mean the pins in the LGA socket, right? You really mean the contacts/pads on the CPU?

Even then... super-small. It seems very frustrating, not easy. Especially with paper---you really meant like an itty-bitty piece of tape?

---

I'm with Topinio and Waco--- I'm going to go with a blanket "no", for everything.


Image

https://hubpages.com/technology/Get-mor ... ore-Q6600#
but you need 333mhz memory because it increases the fsb speed.


Maybe Jeff can try this out with his new-to-him build?
 
Topinio
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Re: VGA upgrade possible for photo editing and 4k playback ?

Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:21 pm

synthtel2 wrote:
The 1200 MHz nominal boost clock on a slot-power-only 460 is completely divorced from reality. On the stock settings, mine was good for about 1060 on average once warmed up, and with tweaks ~1150 was all I could squeeze out of it.

The whole generation was divorced from reality, the obvious conclusion would be that AMD engineered a GCN 4th gen. to the obvious hardware-spec power limits of 150 W for Ellesmere and 75 W for Baffin but couldn't deliver competitive performance.

They upped the clocks, threw out the power limits, violated the specs, and sorta-pretended sorta-didn't-mention that they had done that first thing. :roll:

Not a good generation to buy, especially now it's almost 2.5 years old.
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synthtel2
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Re: VGA upgrade possible for photo editing and 4k playback ?

Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:07 am

I don't disagree that they pushed them pretty hard when there were opportunities, I just don't think they were considering 75W cards to be one of those opportunities. For my 460, it looks like instead of violating specs by throwing out power limits they violated specs by never meeting the nominal clocks. That's an obnoxious thing for the marketing department to have done, but doesn't make it a bad card.
 
Topinio
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Re: VGA upgrade possible for photo editing and 4k playback ?

Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:24 am

synthtel2 wrote:
I don't disagree that they pushed them pretty hard when there were opportunities, I just don't think they were considering 75W cards to be one of those opportunities. For my 460, it looks like instead of violating specs by throwing out power limits they violated specs by never meeting the nominal clocks. That's an obnoxious thing for the marketing department to have done, but doesn't make it a bad card.

I'm pretty sure they wanted to sell a < 75 W card. It's (even now) listed as such on their website.

But as quoted below, either the clocks are ridiculously misleading or the power is.

https://www.amd.com/en/products/graphics/radeon-rx-460
Radeon™ RX 460
  • GPU
    • Compute Units: 14
    • Base Frequency: Up to 1090 MHz
    • Boost Frequency: Up to 1200 MHz
    • Max Performance: Up to 2.2 TFLOPs
    • Stream Processors: 896
    • GPU Power: 35-48 W
  • Requirements
    • Typical Board Power (Desktop): 70 W
    • PSU Recommendation: 400 W


Clearly, their problem was that at that 70 W it would've been performing like the GTX 750 Ti or even worse, and that rival card was 2.5 year old at the time and available for relatively cheap. Maybe at chip design time they didn't expect Maxwell, but at launch time they would have and also probably that Pascal in the form of the GTX 1050 was on its way in a couple of months.

So, the clocks could be upped, but only if the power went out the window. So they weasel-worded the clocks with some 'up to' language in order to sound like all 460's would be fast enough, didn't make a reference board and had the board partners design ones that could hit those clocks via having a 6-pin and some proper power routing. Voilá, everyone reviews a 1.1-1.2 GHz card that's faster than the GTX 750 Ti and performs at round about the GTX 950, which coincidentally also uses 90 W or so.

End-users see that performance in these reviews, see the specs in the reviews which say '< 75 W', buy the cards ... The unlucky ones trying to save a few quid get the cheaper RX 460's which might not have a 6-pin and if so can only do the ~800 MHz that that TDP would allow. :evil:
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synthtel2
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Re: VGA upgrade possible for photo editing and 4k playback ?

Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:35 pm

Where's 800 MHz or being a 750 Ti competitor come into anything? That's barely off idle for these. 1050 MHz versus 1150~1200 might be noticeable, but it isn't going to make or break any particular application of it.

Maybe you're thinking of Intel V/F curves. GloFo 14's is massively steeper than that, and small clock changes represent large power use changes.
 
Topinio
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Re: VGA upgrade possible for photo editing and 4k playback ?

Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:58 pm

synthtel2 wrote:
Where's 800 MHz or being a 750 Ti competitor come into anything? That's barely off idle for these. 1050 MHz versus 1150~1200 might be noticeable, but it isn't going to make or break any particular application of it.

Maybe you're thinking of Intel V/F curves. GloFo 14's is massively steeper than that, and small clock changes represent large power use changes.

Sorry, the '~800 MHz' was slight hyperbole, as you identified I did so by way of referring to the Intel CPU stuck clock speed.

The 750 Ti bit was serious -- it's the card that a truly 70 W RX 460 would have been competing against at launch time. Letting Baffin have 90 W or more was what let it take on the 950, and the 750 Ti was the next card down NVIDIA's stack at that time.
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synthtel2
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Re: VGA upgrade possible for photo editing and 4k playback ?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:39 pm

The 950 has 29% more shader power, 19% more memory bandwidth, and over twice the ROP power of the 750 Ti, and in TR's testing the 950 was 45% faster. A sub-14% clock difference doesn't even resemble that gap.
 
Topinio
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Re: VGA upgrade possible for photo editing and 4k playback ?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:14 pm

synthtel2 wrote:
The 950 has 29% more shader power, 19% more memory bandwidth, and over twice the ROP power of the 750 Ti, and in TR's testing the 950 was 45% faster. A sub-14% clock difference doesn't even resemble that gap.

https://techreport.com/review/30488/amd ... eviewed/10
https://techreport.com/review/30488/amd ... eviewed/12

In that review, the power numbers are from the Crysis 3 testing, so we have

  • GTX 950 = 68 FPS for ~85 W
  • RX 460 = 59 FPS for ~90 W
  • GTX 750 Ti = 54 FPS for ~70 W
I shouldn't expect the RX 460 at ~70 W would have stayed ahead of the ~70 W GTX 750 Ti.

Do you think I'm wrong, and that a 22% cut to the power budget wouldn't have cost the Radeon 8.5% or more of its FPS?
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synthtel2
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Re: VGA upgrade possible for photo editing and 4k playback ?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:32 pm

You're cherry-picking results. Try this one from the same review: https://techreport.com/review/30488/amd-radeon-rx-460-graphics-card-reviewed/13

If power were directly proportional to clocks, a 70W 460 would be about at the level of a 750 Ti. In this portion of the V/F curve, 22% power drop for 8.5% fps drop sounds pretty reasonable (a bit shallow if anything).

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