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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:08 am

Krogoth wrote:
In the worse case, even if you were to get a Ryzen 2700X now. The upcoming Zen2-based Ryzens should be compatible with most existing AM4 boards, but you most likely have to update the UEFI prior to the CPU upgrade. AMD plans on changing sockets with desktop/laptop versions of Zen3 (DDR5/PCIe 4.0 support).

I'm not worried about DDR5 compatibility. It's not going to be out for at least another year, and will probably take at least another year after that to gain mainstream traction.

Edit: Anyone heard anything about whether AMD might do the same thing when moving from DDR4 to DDR5 that they did during the transition from DDR2 to DDR3 (where the CPUs could run in either AM2+ or AM3 motherboards and use either type of RAM)? I remember being amazed at the time that I could drop a 6-core 1090T into my old AM2+ motherboard, and it "just worked". I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up, given that they did not do this in the AM3+ to AM4 transition.
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:25 pm

JBI wrote:
And on a mostly unrelated (other than it being a motherboard thing) note, it amuses me that current motherboards still have legacy COM port headers on them. Presumably this is done to accommodate legacy peripherals that don't work well with USB RS-232 converters.


Hey! I use those!
 
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"legacy" whining is 99% uninformed

Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:51 pm

LPC, SMB and similar low-level 'SOC' controllers are not going away anytime soon (probably not even in the next decade) so things like PS/2, COM/serial buses and many other "legacy" things are actually on just about every x86 board out there. They take up little or no real estate, have tons of functions embedded, cost pennies and do a lot of background things that need to be done, including important stuff like making sure the cpu fan is still spinning and knowing what kind of ram is plugged in.

Whether or not a particular board exposes some of these chip traces to usable header pins (and don't have crippled firmware) is the only real question.
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:57 pm

Glorious wrote:
JBI wrote:
And on a mostly unrelated (other than it being a motherboard thing) note, it amuses me that current motherboards still have legacy COM port headers on them. Presumably this is done to accommodate legacy peripherals that don't work well with USB RS-232 converters.


Hey! I use those!


I would have liked a PCI slot instead for my nice soundcard, my onboard realtek buzzes......sigh.........
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Re: "legacy" whining is 99% uninformed

Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:10 pm

Bauxite wrote:
LPC, SMB and similar low-level 'SOC' controllers are not going away anytime soon (probably not even in the next decade) so things like PS/2, COM/serial buses and many other "legacy" things are actually on just about every x86 board out there. They take up little or no real estate, have tons of functions embedded, cost pennies and do a lot of background things that need to be done, including important stuff like making sure the cpu fan is still spinning and knowing what kind of ram is plugged in.

Whether or not a particular board exposes some of these chip traces to usable header pins (and don't have crippled firmware) is the only real question.

I was referring to RS-232 not I2C; most motherboards don't expose the I2C bus to the user.
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:52 pm

Decided to pull the trigger. Asus PRIME X470-PRO and 2700X acquired (Microcenter bundle).

Next step is to clear off the table in my office where I do my builds as it is currently buried under a giant pile of random crap (including the full-tower file server I had planned to relocate to the crawlspace months ago).

I don't have the M.2 boot drive or full complement of RAM yet, but I can bench test the motherboard, CPU, and half of the RAM using an old SSD as a boot drive.
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:35 pm

gz, I'm sure it'll be a happy-making system and you'll be glad to use it (though IMO Piledriver was somewhat decent and much maligned...)
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:50 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Decided to pull the trigger.


Mazel tov!

just brew it! wrote:
using an old SSD as a boot drive.


Personally, when I build a new system, my first boot is off a USB diagnostics suite. If you don't have one of those, you might boot off a Linux live USB with some free diagnostics or burn-in tests on it. That way, you don't spend time installing Windows before you get to see whether all the hardware is recognized and whether anything crashes.
 
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:31 am

I just went with an Asus Strix B450-F, Ryzen5 2600 and 16gb 2666mhz ram. While it's nice and a bit snappier and can pull off WMR in iracing/elite dangerous. I can safely say if it wasn't for me needing AVX instruction set I could have easily continued with my i7-930@3.3ghz for a while longer. I like new gear but it is an underwhelming upgrade.
 
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:54 pm

Village wrote:
I just went with an Asus Strix B450-F, Ryzen5 2600 and 16gb 2666mhz ram. While it's nice and a bit snappier and can pull off WMR in iracing/elite dangerous. I can safely say if it wasn't for me needing AVX instruction set I could have easily continued with my i7-930@3.3ghz for a while longer. I like new gear but it is an underwhelming upgrade.

If the 2600 is running stock, I'd expect the OC on the i7 to have closed the gap quite a bit.
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:42 pm

Yeah, stock currently. I'll probably push a mild OC later but it's stock cooling.
 
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:04 pm

Village wrote:
Yeah, stock currently. I'll probably push a mild OC later but it's stock cooling.


Also note that Zen benefits quite a lot from faster DDR speeds, at least up to 3000-3200 because the internal fabric syncs with the memory clock IIRC. Your DDR4 2666 is probably sub optimal in that respect. Getting it to work at 2800-2933-3000 MHz may prove to be quite hard, but possibly worth trying.
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:18 pm

Most of what I've read seems to indicate only a 3-5% gain going to faster ram. Yes an improvement, but I don't know seems less earth shattering unless I'm trying to eak out every last bit of performance.
 
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:20 pm

ptsant wrote:
cegras wrote:
If you want to agonize over numbers without any testing, you can look up the X470 VRM list to see if you're really buying a proper VRM for your Ryzen.

If you want 144 Hz gaming, I would say that is still intel's territory.


In real life most people are not going to pair a $300 CPU with a $1200 GPU and play at 1080p. In practice, most people are GPU limited in games, not CPU limited. I believe I'd see a much bigger increase at 1440p framerates exchanging my RX 480 for an RTX 2070 than exchanging my 1700X with a 9900K.


Spending more on the GPU is a misconception that needs to be addressed eventually. Game engines demand more and more out of the CPU with each generation, and CPU frame times can only be mitigated by spending more money. There are no CPU related settings to tweak in any game, and if you want to hit 100 FPS mins in multiplayer - which I would argue is essential - then you need to invest in the right CPU.

Also, 'GPU limited' is a tricky term. It takes the best cards to hit 100 FPS minimum at 1080p/1440p ultra. But at least there, you can tweak GPU settings to lower the frame times.
 
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:23 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Decided to pull the trigger. Asus PRIME X470-PRO and 2700X acquired (Microcenter bundle).

Next step is to clear off the table in my office where I do my builds as it is currently buried under a giant pile of random crap (including the full-tower file server I had planned to relocate to the crawlspace months ago).

I don't have the M.2 boot drive or full complement of RAM yet, but I can bench test the motherboard, CPU, and half of the RAM using an old SSD as a boot drive.



table cleaned off yet?? lol I remember seeing a pick on some thread of your basement. couldn't help myself ;)
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:12 am

cegras wrote:
Spending more on the GPU is a misconception that needs to be addressed eventually. Game engines demand more and more out of the CPU with each generation, and CPU frame times can only be mitigated by spending more money. There are no CPU related settings to tweak in any game, and if you want to hit 100 FPS mins in multiplayer - which I would argue is essential - then you need to invest in the right CPU.

Also, 'GPU limited' is a tricky term. It takes the best cards to hit 100 FPS minimum at 1080p/1440p ultra. But at least there, you can tweak GPU settings to lower the frame times.


First, spending more on the GPU (in the current pricing situation) is not a misconception, but almost inevitable if you care about gaming. At $250 you get a decent mid-range CPU while the best-of-the-best 9900K tops at ~$500. A $250 GPU is midrange (RX 590, 1060) and there are *four* tiers above that (2060, 2070, 2080, 2080 Ti). Which of the following pairings would make more sense in your opinion? A 2600X with an RTX 2070 (roughly $700) or a 9900K plus a RX590 (slightly more than $700)?

Second, the numbers easily back this up. To use Assassin's Creed as an example, in TR's test the 2600X scores 80 fps driving a 2080 Ti at 1080p (a ridiculous combination of GPU/resolution) and the 9900K scores 91 fps average. In Deus Ex, which is a lighter game, the difference is much greater: 118 fps vs 167. But, if your CPU drives 118 fps do you really need more? Same with GTA V: 114 vs 153 fps. Now, do you want to compare a $250 GPU vs a $500 GPU at 1080p, say the RX590 vs the 2070? And you can scale this even further, comparing the 590/1060 with the 2080, if your budget allows.

I agree that multiplayer may further increase demands for the CPU. I also agree that it's impossible to tune CPU load in the game settings. I also feel that you should plan for a decent CPU (never was a fan of 2c/4t gaming setups, for example). And yes, this may vary from game to game. But overall, I stand by my suggestion to budget more for the GPU than the CPU. Especially in the current pricing situation.
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:42 am

I would love to see reviews where they paired different cpu+GPU combinations against each other at various price points. Or even varying the RAM.
 
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:02 am

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
I would love to see reviews where they paired different cpu+GPU combinations against each other at various price points. Or even varying the RAM.

Me too, but I'm not sure that doing it that way is particularly useful.

If a PC were a static box that the gamer replaces every n years, and the budget for a build were fixed, the thing to do would be to build with the best CPU and GPU combination you could.

However, a substantial number of gamers will upgrade the GPU mid-life but not the CPU, hence it makes sense to get an adequate GPU and the best CPU you can. (Modulo other non-gaming usage requirements which might affect the choice of platform, of course.)
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:27 am

ptsant wrote:
cegras wrote:
There are no CPU related settings to tweak in any game


it's impossible to tune CPU load in the game settings.


Is this really the case? Obviously there's no section in game menus for "CPU Settings" but as I understand it some of the graphics options have a big impact on the CPU. It's not like the CPU has nothing to do with rendering, many of the game specific graphics driver updates are about how the driver handles the CPU's workload rather than what the graphics card is doing.
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:35 am

anotherengineer wrote:
table cleaned off yet?? lol I remember seeing a pick on some thread of your basement. couldn't help myself ;)

Halfway there. I've been sick (working from home), and sleeping when I'm not working. So the cleanup has stalled.
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:54 am

I'm late to the party, but I'd suggest HGST drives for mass storage. I have had 0 issues with them and I probably have 2-3 dozen of the 4 and 6 TB 7200 RPM NAS models running between 1 and 4 years in various locations handing backup duties for small offices.
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:14 am

SuperSpy wrote:
I'm late to the party, but I'd suggest HGST drives for mass storage. I have had 0 issues with them and I probably have 2-3 dozen of the 4 and 6 TB 7200 RPM NAS models running between 1 and 4 years in various locations handing backup duties for small offices.

Yeah, was leaning HGST or Toshiba. Seagate's back on my "avoid" list. Still willing to do WD if there's a significant price delta.
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:20 am

I got this HGST 6TB for $140 at Black Friday and I absolutely love it. Out of stock on Amazon right now though.
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:04 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
I got this HGST 6TB for $140 at Black Friday and I absolutely love it. Out of stock on Amazon right now though.

Looks like the 4TB one is in stock though... storage volume on the current desktop is 3TB, so while 6TB would be nice, 4TB would be sufficient.
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:33 am

Topinio wrote:
Usacomp2k3 wrote:
I would love to see reviews where they paired different cpu+GPU combinations against each other at various price points. Or even varying the RAM.

Me too, but I'm not sure that doing it that way is particularly useful.

If a PC were a static box that the gamer replaces every n years, and the budget for a build were fixed, the thing to do would be to build with the best CPU and GPU combination you could.

However, a substantial number of gamers will upgrade the GPU mid-life but not the CPU, hence it makes sense to get an adequate GPU and the best CPU you can. (Modulo other non-gaming usage requirements which might affect the choice of platform, of course.)


I believe this is not a given, but rather reflects the relative state of the market. From Sandy Bridge to Skylake the improvements were incremental, in the single-digit range, and in many cases required a MB+RAM upgrade. Why would anyone be pressed to upgrade? Now the opposite is happening. If things come out as planned, I will be able to do an in-socket upgrade of my 1700X to a 3700X (or similar) for $350 or so in 6 months. Yet, I have a hard time finding a meaningful $250-300 upgrade to my RX480 right now. The only thing that gets me excited is the 2060, but which would ideally have to fall closer to $300. And this is more or less true across the GPU range. Why would you upgrade a 1080 [Ti]? And if there is no competition from AMD do you think the 2080 [Ti] is becoming obsolete soon? Gone are the days when the new $300 card outperformed the $500 card of the previous generation. The price/perf in GPUs is now stuck.
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:41 am

ptsant wrote:
I believe this is not a given, but rather reflects the relative state of the market. From Sandy Bridge to Skylake the improvements were incremental, in the single-digit range, and in many cases required a MB+RAM upgrade. Why would anyone be pressed to upgrade? Now the opposite is happening. If things come out as planned, I will be able to do an in-socket upgrade of my 1700X to a 3700X (or similar) for $350 or so in 6 months. Yet, I have a hard time finding a meaningful $250-300 upgrade to my RX480 right now. The only thing that gets me excited is the 2060, but which would ideally have to fall closer to $300. And this is more or less true across the GPU range. Why would you upgrade a 1080 [Ti]? And if there is no competition from AMD do you think the 2080 [Ti] is becoming obsolete soon? Gone are the days when the new $300 card outperformed the $500 card of the previous generation. The price/perf in GPUs is now stuck.

This is kinda true, personally I'm a bit torn. I've always done a couple of GPU upgrades per system life, which has always been on the long side, and only CPU upgrades on a couple of systems and it wasn't that worth it because I'd bought quite high at the outset.

Now, I'd maybe get an E3-1285 v6 if I saw one, but they seem unavailable and an E3-1275 v6 isn't enough of a step up from the E3-1270 v5 to justify the cost ... but the GPU step from the RX Vega 56 to the VII is twice the price ...
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:52 am

I'm doing a very similar upgrade to JBIs at the end of this month, using the same board, but I'm leaning towards the 2600x, as I don't need the extra cores for older games that I play.

Link to my parts list: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/2jvczY

After looking over my list, I may hold off on the NVMe Evo and the Le Grand Macho (I love that name for a cooler !! It just drips with testosterone) and re-use my SATA Evo and use the 2600x Spire HSF for now. Spending $200 for hardly any seat of the pants feel is just not my style these days.
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:32 am

Walkintarget wrote:
After looking over my list, I may hold off on the NVMe Evo and the Le Grand Macho (I love that name for a cooler !! It just drips with testosterone) and re-use my SATA Evo and use the 2600x Spire HSF for now. Spending $200 for hardly any seat of the pants feel is just not my style these days.

Ahh, nice to see that Thermalright is still doing the "go big or go home" thing. I had a pair of big solid copper Thermalrights on my dual Socket A system back in the day. Those HSFs weighed more than the motherboard!

I plan to go with the stock 2700X cooler, at least initially. This being my first AM4 build, none of the existing HSFs in my collection are compatible. If noise levels are unacceptable I'll look at alternatives, but from what I understand the current stock units are reasonably good.
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:38 am

just brew it! wrote:
Walkintarget wrote:
After looking over my list, I may hold off on the NVMe Evo and the Le Grand Macho (I love that name for a cooler !! It just drips with testosterone) and re-use my SATA Evo and use the 2600x Spire HSF for now. Spending $200 for hardly any seat of the pants feel is just not my style these days.

Ahh, nice to see that Thermalright is still doing the "go big or go home" thing. I had a pair of big solid copper Thermalrights on my dual Socket A system back in the day. Those HSFs weighed more than the motherboard!

I plan to go with the stock 2700X cooler, at least initially. This being my first AM4 build, none of the existing HSFs in my collection are compatible. If noise levels are unacceptable I'll look at alternatives, but from what I understand the current stock units are reasonably good.


That's odd, AMD hasn't change the form factor for their HSF on the desktop platform since Socket 754/940.
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Re: Time to finally take the Ryzen plunge?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:38 am

cheesyking wrote:
ptsant wrote:
cegras wrote:
There are no CPU related settings to tweak in any game


it's impossible to tune CPU load in the game settings.


Is this really the case? Obviously there's no section in game menus for "CPU Settings" but as I understand it some of the graphics options have a big impact on the CPU. It's not like the CPU has nothing to do with rendering, many of the game specific graphics driver updates are about how the driver handles the CPU's workload rather than what the graphics card is doing.


Specifically for BFV, I don't think so.

I built my latest computer - i5-9600K + Vega 64 (picked it up opportunistically on BF) to run BFV at 144 FPS stable. I chose the 9600K specifically because anything beyond it is diminishing returns at 1080p - although I think I should have future proofed for more threaded game engines with a 9700K. I haven't played around with graphics settings, but I'm mostly medium and undervolted on the V64. My philosophy is that stable 144 FPS in multiplayer is the best determinant of gameplay experience over graphics quality. For people who like the single player experience, this probably does not apply. But for people who like multiplayer, high FPS is everything.

Anyways, the 9600K was $250, while the Vega was $340, which is a much more balanced allocation of money than spending the majority on the GPU.

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