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DrDominodog51
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Retro Build

Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:07 pm

Hey gerbils,

I'm currently working on PGA370 build for a linux system to mess around with and need a little bit of help selecting parts. This platform outdates my interest in building computers by a fair bit, so sorry in advance for the stupid questions to follow. Here's what I have so far as a list:

    CPU: 2x Pentium III-S 1.4 GHz Tualatin
    CPU Coolers: ???
    Mobo: Tyan Tiger 200T s2505T (Dual Socket; VIA Apollo Pro133T chipset)
    RAM: ??
    GPU: A PCI gpu with digital video out
    PSU: RM 750
    Case: whatever cheap case I come across
    Storage: IDE -> SATA adapter and a generic 320 GB 2.5" hard drive I have lying around
    OS: Debian Stretch (won't be run with a GUI)

The only thing on that list set in stone is the motherboard currently. Now here the questions I have for y'all:

Is there anything I should look for on CPU coolers? I know on older platforms not all mounting systems were equal.
The motherboard manual says "At least one non-registered, unbuffered DIMM must be installed in order to POST". Does this mean I have to run 3 sticks of registered SDRAM and 1 unregistered stick to boot?
Will 25A on the 5v rail of the PSU be enough for this build?
Do y'all have any other thoughts/suggestions?

Thanks.
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Starfalcon
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Re: Retro Build

Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:44 pm

Well looking at the board manual, it may not support that 1.4Tul chip as the jumper setting don't seem to include it. Tul support was a very late thing to support and a lot of 370 boards don't. For the memory it just means that's the min you need to post, it supports both types. The 25A on the PSU is very low, most of the PSUs had 35A+ on both the 3.3v and the 5v rails 12V wasn't used very much back then. You will have to see if it has enough grunt to power it up.
 
DrDominodog51
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Re: Retro Build

Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:53 pm

Wow time really flies. It seems like it was only yesterday that I created this posted the OP. :o

The Tyan Tiger S200T arrived in immaculate condition with its original box and all accessories. It seems fairly likely that this board was bought by a business as a spare server board to keep on hand. There are no obvious cap issues on the board luckily. As a aside, the Apollo Pro133T chipset is an update to the Pro133A to add support for Tualatins, and this board itself was a refresh of the S200 (s2505) to add Tualatin support.

I also bought a used Thermaltake Toughpower 1000A to power the system. It has 30A ratings on both 3.3V and 5v and has a floppy power connector, so it should be good enough for this.

I'll be picking up 4 GB of registered ECC PC133 ram, two 1.4 GHz Tuals, a PCI HD 3450, a Creative Soundblaster PCI card, and a older case to round off the build soon.

Here are some pics of the mobo for everyone's enjoyment:
Image
Image
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NTMBK
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Re: Retro Build

Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:54 pm

Wow, gorgeous board. They don't make them like they used to!
 
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Re: Retro Build

Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:45 pm

I had a Tyan Trinity 400 board back in the day, which had both Slot-1 and Socket-370. Great piece of electronics and I was disappointed when Tyan left the consumer market a few years later.
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Re: Retro Build

Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:30 pm

Is that an ISA slot? I haven’t seen one of those in years.
 
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Re: Retro Build

Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:38 pm

And IDE connectors, and floppy drives... :-)
 
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Re: Retro Build

Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:34 pm

No AGP slot, retro is right.

Got a screen pic for us yet?
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bfg-9000
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Re: Retro Build

Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:55 pm

I replaced all of my 256k cache Tualatin Celerons 10 years ago when StarMicro dropped their price for brand new 512k cache PIII-S 1400 to US$6 each to clear them out (the price stayed there for over a year on Pricewatch, so nobody wanted them). The whole batch I got was a matching lot, but then I only have one dual board, which happily ran different-speed CPUs at the same time. Most of them went into BX chipset boards at 1575MHz so I had to make sure they were each equipped with 100MHz-AGP capable cards and only 768MB of PC150 capable SDR.

The PIII-S 1400 came out in 2002 so at the time was only a 7-year old chip, same as an Ivy Bridge chip, or Bulldozer AM3+ is today

I had a 32-bit PCI-bus HD5450 that worked fine in XP but bluescreened Windows 7 with a atikmdag.sys error every time the drivers loaded (perhaps the driver has to be written with the bridge chip in mind, as my AGP HD4650 also only ever worked with hotfixed drivers). But then with no SSE2 you can't run Win7 anyway after the Mar2018 updates, or for that matter Firefox, Chrome, Flash, Office 2013+, etc. In comparison the GeForce 6200 PCI ran flawlessly but is only fixed-function T&L with no hardware acceleration of H.264 videos. Are linux drivers for the VLIW ATIs any better nowadays?

And official drivers for SB Live! have severe issues if above 2GB of system RAM. SB Audigy is good to 4GB. Of course, SB 16 or AWE32/AWE64 on ISA are the most compatible.

I suggest a pair of Alpha Pep66 or the larger PAL series to look right on that board.
 
DrDominodog51
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Re: Retro Build

Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:32 pm

anotherengineer wrote:
No AGP slot, retro is right.

Got a screen pic for us yet?

A higher end model from Tyan had an AGP slot; this board was made as late as 2002.

I need to get the rest of the parts before you all get some screen pics. :lol:

bfg-9000 wrote:
Are linux drivers for the VLIW ATIs any better nowadays?

And official drivers for SB Live! have severe issues if above 2GB of system RAM. SB Audigy is good to 4GB. Of course, SB 16 or AWE32/AWE64 on ISA are the most compatible.

I suggest a pair of Alpha Pep66 or the larger PAL series to look right on that board.

I will be running mostly in command line only, so I'm not too concerned about the VLIW driver state. The only reason I'm going with the HD 3450 is because I need something capable giving digital video out to my 2560x1080 monitor and Nvidia's modern PCI cards are nowhere to be found right now.

Thanks for the tip on the audio card. I was looking at getting an Soundblaster X-Fi if I can find one, since Soundblasters appear to have the best Linux support.

The Alpha Pep66 looks really cool, but it looks like I'll be stuck with the Antec 370FC-PGA (77052). I'll keep looking for better coolers though.
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DrDominodog51
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Re: Retro Build

Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:59 pm

IT"S ALIVE (sort of)
Image
(sorry for the rotated image)

All of the core components arrived today, so I threw it all together on my desk for testing. One CPU came with a single bent pin that prevented socket insertion before I bent it back. The coolers were complete pains in the ass to install. Who thought using a piece of spring steel to apply mounting pressure was a good idea? :o I stabbed the mobo more times then I care to admit when trying to get them on. After getting those two on, I attempted a test boot. The CPU and PSU fans turned on for a second then shut off. I tried again and the same thing happened. An hour of cursing later, I figured out the used Thermaltake PSU couldn't start the s370 mobo, but the Seasonic G Series PSU in my daily could.

It appears that the Thermaltake has some bad caps or something on a minor rail because it can run my FM2+ daily system perfectly well. I'd rather not run my Seasonic in this P3 system since it lacks the amount of molex and berg power connectors I want for it. I guess I'll have to find another PSU for this build. :x

Regardless, the system boots and detects both CPUs and all 4 GB of ram. I took the picture above a little too early to show all of that.

I ended up picking up an Antec CS200B for the case because it fits the aesthetic well and was less than $40 including shipping.

As soon as the DVD drive arrives, I'll be doing further testing, and eventually I'll be building the system. I'll post updates as they come here.

Here's a pic from before I installed the coolers:
Image
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DrDominodog51
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Re: Retro Build

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:21 am

Final Parts List:
CPU: 2x 1.4 Ghz Pentium III -S (Tualatin)
Mobo: Tyan Tiger 200T (S2505T) with the ApolloPro133T Server chipset
Coolers: Generic heatsinks with Cooler Master 60mm(?) fans
Ram: 4 x 1 GB PC133 of IBM Registered ECC memory (P/N 1S38L3443ZFPGLU24B092)
GPU: VisionTek HD 3450 PCI (P/N 3450PCIDM)
PSU: Seasonic G-Series 650w with a bunch SATA to Molex and SATA to Berg adapters
Case: Antec CS200B
Storage: Samsung 850 Evo 250 GB with a generic IDE to SATA adapter
DVD Drive: Sony AW-Q170A
Floppy Drive: Sony MPF920 3.5" 1.44 MB
Soundcard: To be added later.
Fan Controller: Aerocool X-Vision
Case Fans: 2 x Arctic F8 Silent 80mm Fans
OS: Devuan ASCII (with XFCE installed for testing)
Networking: Generic USB Wifi Adapter that works most of the time

I'm writing this post on the computer right now using the built-in RageXL. I didn't realize the VisionTek had DMS-59 output until it arrived, :lol: so I'll have to wait to install that until the DMS-59 -> HDMI adapter arrives. After a couple days of testing with that, I'll do a final write-up here with pictures. If y'all have any benchmarks that you'd like me to run, post them here and I'll try them.
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NTMBK
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Re: Retro Build

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:40 am

Nice build! How well does it run modern software? Browsing the 2019 web (even just to post on Tech Report) on a system like that sounds rather painful!
 
demolition
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Re: Retro Build

Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:33 am

The 2GB limit might not be a problem with the SB Live! sound card if you use the kX Project driver. I used that with my Live! card with Win XP back in the day and it was a lot better than the official drivers. Of course, if you decide to go Linux only, then this doesn't matter..
 
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Re: Retro Build

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:50 am

Thermaltake is junk.
There, I said it.

Citation: 50+ various products over the years. The ones that work are usually of poor quality.
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Re: Retro Build

Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:42 am

I have an old Alienware case I should do something with. I think it is based iff of the classic Antec... What was that model? The one everyone rebadged? It is one of those.
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Re: Retro Build

Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:46 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
Thermaltake is junk.
There, I said it.

Citation: 50+ various products over the years. The ones that work are usually of poor quality.

They have been on my "lifetime ban" list for a number of years now. They are the ONLY vendor on that list.

TheEmrys wrote:
I have an old Alienware case I should do something with. I think it is based iff of the classic Antec... What was that model? The one everyone rebadged? It is one of those.

The full-tower one based on the Chieftec/Chenming Dragon, or something else?
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DrDominodog51
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Re: Retro Build

Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:42 pm

NTMBK wrote:
Nice build! How well does it run modern software? Browsing the 2019 web (even just to post on Tech Report) on a system like that sounds rather painful!

The biggest issue with browsing the web is that Firefox 45 Extended Support (Support was dropped in 49) is the newest web browser I can find that doesn't require SSE2. 45 appears to be the version at the height of Firefox being resource heavy as well. :-?

Newer versions of firefox and Midori 0.5.11 work on some pages such as Tech Report, but on others like youtube, they consistently crash.

There's also a bit of graphical artifacting in general, but I'll blame that on the probably unsupported RageXL.

LibreOffice on the other hand is completely usable for productivity. Hell, I'd say LibreOffice runs significantly faster than it ever did on my Atom N270 based netbook.
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bfg-9000
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Re: Retro Build

Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:11 pm

Slimbrowser may work, but it's Windows-only. Last updated Oct 2017. Midori uses Webkit last used in Chrome v27, while Blink quit working after Chrome v34 in Apr 2014 .

I was always sad to see people who confused the excellent Thermalright with Thermaltake. It probably didn't help that the Thermaltake had flashy packaging while the Thermalright came in a plain cardboard box like a Les Baer
 
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Re: Retro Build

Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:41 pm

bfg-9000 wrote:
Slimbrowser may work, but it's Windows-only. Last updated Oct 2017. Midori uses Webkit last used in Chrome v27, while Blink quit working after Chrome v34 in Apr 2014 .

I was always sad to see people who confused the excellent Thermalright with Thermaltake. It probably didn't help that the Thermaltake had flashy packaging while the Thermalright came in a plain cardboard box like a Les Baer


Still using a ThermalRight TRUE Black 120 to cool an i9-9900K, rather nicely, I might add.

I will probably compare it to a Noctua NH-D15S shortly, but I really don't know which will win; the Ultra Extreme is amazing considering it's 11 years old. It was way ahead of its time.
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Re: Retro Build

Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:52 pm

DrDominodog51 wrote:
LibreOffice on the other hand is completely usable for productivity. Hell, I'd say LibreOffice runs significantly faster than it ever did on my Atom N270 based netbook.

FWIW I remember being quite amazed that LibreOffice was usable (albeit barely) on the first-gen Raspberry Pi back in the day.
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bthylafh
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Re: Retro Build

Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:59 pm

There are Linux builds of Pale Moon, which is a maintained fork of v20-something Firefox. No idea if they work on a P3.
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Re: Retro Build

Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:41 pm

LoneWolf15 wrote:
Still using a ThermalRight TRUE Black 120 to cool an i9-9900K, rather nicely, I might add.

I will probably compare it to a Noctua NH-D15S shortly, but I really don't know which will win; the Ultra Extreme is amazing considering it's 11 years old. It was way ahead of its time.


I heap praise on Noctua but when I moved from Athlons to Core2, I had to ditch my Thermalright XP-90 for a Noctua NH-U12. It was a distinct downgrade in build-quality and finish, yet I'm still using that same NH-U12 to this day, now on its third (free) mounting system courtesy of Noctua customer service.

If Thermalright had the infinite support of Noctua I'd go back to them in a heartbeat.
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DrDominodog51
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Re: Retro Build

Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:47 am

bthylafh wrote:
There are Linux builds of Pale Moon, which is a maintained fork of v20-something Firefox. No idea if they work on a P3.

Thanks for the suggestion. Someone made a SSE(1) build of Palemoon v27 for linux, and it runs a lot better than Firefox 45. With the HD 3450, it might be able to play youtube videos at acceptable speeds.
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Re: Retro Build

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:04 pm

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DrDominodog51
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Re: Retro Build

Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:07 am

The DMS-59 adapter arrived around the 1st. Whenever I was using the HD 3450, it would get a corrupted screen during POST and lock the system completely.

5 minutes ago, I realized the four gigs of ram might be interfering when the PCI address range, so I removed a stick as a test. It booted right up. :evil:

I'm writing this post on it now, and it's almost worse than the Rage XL. I'll post another update as soon as I figure out how to enable hardware acceleration for Xfce with the GPU.
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The Egg
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Re: Retro Build

Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:01 am

Interesting stuff; not sure how I missed this thread. Only thing I might suggest is losing the wireless USB NIC, as it certainly uses measurably more CPU overhead. Kinda wild that you were able to find a ~2007 videocard in standard PCI, as that was at least a couple years after the end of AGP.
 
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Re: Retro Build

Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:18 am

DrDominodog51 wrote:
I'll post another update as soon as I figure out how to enable hardware acceleration for Xfce with the GPU.


You might look into Compton, which is a 3D accelerated compositor that should be compatible with Xfce.
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DrDominodog51
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Re: Retro Build

Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:29 pm

The Egg wrote:
Interesting stuff; not sure how I missed this thread. Only thing I might suggest is losing the wireless USB NIC, as it certainly uses measurably more CPU overhead. Kinda wild that you were able to find a ~2007 videocard in standard PCI, as that was at least a couple years after the end of AGP.

I abandoned the wifi adapter awhile back because it kept dropping out randomly. I've been using my main PC to output ethernet to the computer since.

Interestingly, the newest PCI GPU is from 2012 (GT 610), and there also was an AGP HD 3850 + 4650.
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The Egg
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Re: Retro Build

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:08 pm

DrDominodog51 wrote:
The Egg wrote:
Interesting stuff; not sure how I missed this thread. Only thing I might suggest is losing the wireless USB NIC, as it certainly uses measurably more CPU overhead. Kinda wild that you were able to find a ~2007 videocard in standard PCI, as that was at least a couple years after the end of AGP.

I abandoned the wifi adapter awhile back because it kept dropping out randomly. I've been using my main PC to output ethernet to the computer since.

Interestingly, the newest PCI GPU is from 2012 (GT 610), and there also was an AGP HD 3850 + 4650.

Wow....that's just bizarre. I knew about the HD3850/4650 and 7800GS in AGP, but a Fermi DX12 card in 2012 for standard PCI? There must have been some sort of niche market still around, perhaps server-related like your situation.

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