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JustAnEngineer wrote:

The lower-latency PC3-12800 is probably good. That's the "officially-supported" memory speed for Ivy Bridge. Current AMD processors or future Intel products may be validated for faster memory. You might also consider:
$100 2x8 GiB PC3-14900 G.Skill F3-1866C9D-16GSR (DDR3-1866, CAS 9, 1.5 V)

However, if I were adding cost to your system, I'd try to get an SSD before the extra memory.

Will probably go with that RAM then.

Just saved another $20-$30 by going with this Cosair 430w power supply. Just going to keep nabbing these sales to keep costs down. With 430W I still have a bit of headroom to overclock the CPU, GPU and RAM right? PC part Picker estimates power draw at about 300 watts.

I was also thinking of switching the case to the NZXT 410 Mid Tower. $65 AR. Seems like it has better cable management than the Storm Enforcer on top of being cheaper.

southrncomfortjm wrote:

I can get Windows 8 Pro upgrade for $70. Sounds like a deal to me

Too bad you didn't start this thread before Feb 1. Everyone used to be able to get W8 Pro for $40 until Jan 31. (see story)
...Just wanted to rub it in I guess.

DPete27 wrote:

southrncomfortjm wrote:

I can get Windows 8 Pro upgrade for $70. Sounds like a deal to me

Too bad you didn't start this thread before Feb 1. Everyone used to be able to get W8 Pro for $40 until Jan 31. (see story)
...Just wanted to rub it in I guess.

Yeah, I remember that pretty clearly. Oh well. I can save money in plenty of places along the way.

Turns out I actually, in a weird way, have more money to use on certain parts than I thought. Pulling together cashback bonus and points from various accounts, I have a lot of money to spend at Amazon, but nowhere else. So basically I'd have to pay cash for the CPU and MoBo from Microcenter, but I have about $375 to spend at Amazon on the CPU Cooler, RAM, Storage drive (notice i didn't say hard drive), and enclosure. Going to use the upgrade trick for the OS.

This extra "found" cash means I can upgrade from 8gigs to 16 gigs of RAM and from a hard drive to an SSD.

What do you all think about:

RAM - Crucial Ballistix Tactical 16GB (2 x 8GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) CAS 8 for $115
and
SSD - Crucial M4 SSD 256gb for $180 with shipping.
or Samsung 840 256gb for $166

Still going to go with the Storm Enforcer case ($80) and the Hyper 212 Plus ($25).

Total - $395

So, M4 v. 840. Which to go with? I haven't heard the same potential issues with the lifespan of the M4 as I have about the 840 because of the type of chips used, so that weighs in favor of the M4. However, the 840 does have better performance. Either one is a great value, but pricing aside, which is better for gaming and for durability?

EDIT: After doing some research, the 840 is generally much faster overall and the lifespan isn't that bad. Should still easily last several years. Going to go with the Samsung.

Then, with the SSD, will I still see a difference between 8 and 16gb of ram? While tis may be "free" money, I still don't want to be wasteful.

1) Does this "Amazon credit" expire anytime soon. It sounds like a decent chunk of change, but I'd still suggest comparing prices on Amazon and Newegg before you buy (make sure to include any shipping at newegg). If the amazon credit can be used for other things, there's no reason to spend an extra $50 (for example) over newegg. Obviously there's a cutoff for everyone. To me, $50 might be the limit, to you it might be $25, but you know what I mean.

2) The amount of ram needed is different for everyone based on their usage. While 8GB is optimal right now, eventually 16GB will be "the norm." That said, I wouldn't pay $115 for CAS 8 RAM, when you can get CAS 9 for ~$90. The performance differences will be minimal.

DPete27 wrote:

1) Does this "Amazon credit" expire anytime soon. It sounds like a decent chunk of change, but I'd still suggest comparing prices on Amazon and Newegg before you buy (make sure to include any shipping at newegg). If the amazon credit can be used for other things, there's no reason to spend an extra $50 (for example) over newegg. Obviously there's a cutoff for everyone. To me, $50 might be the limit, to you it might be $25, but you know what I mean.

2) The amount of ram needed is different for everyone based on their usage. While 8GB is optimal right now, eventually 16GB will be "the norm." That said, I wouldn't pay $115 for CAS 8 RAM, when you can get CAS 9 for ~$90. The performance differences will be minimal.

Doesn't expire, but it builds up over time. I used a bunch to build my HTPC, and now I get to use a bunch to build my gaming rig. Nice thing, of course, is that in a few years, I'll have plenty of credit to replace the graphics card, then a year or two after that I should have enough to take a chunk out of a processor upgrade. Makes owning and upgrading a computer easy and cheap.

I know the RAM is a bit expensive, but its low profile, low latency and low voltage.

Both items actually cost about the same amount on Newegg or Amazon, so I don't feel like I'm burning money here. Even a $20 price difference would have made me pause for a minute.

Ordered the SSD and the RAM. So now I just need my case, cooler, CPU, Mobo and OS.

Total so far is $470. Nothing out of pocket yet since GPU and PSU were covered by cash back bonus and SSD and RAM have been covered by points converted to gift cards. CPU and Mobo will run $250 ($200 covered with birthday cash), OS will cost $40, Cooler and case will cost $110 (last two will be paid with gift cards). Total looks like it will be $870, only $90 of which will be out of pocket (after MIRs come back). Insane.

Moral of the story – save your credit card points! Basically getting a good mid-range gaming PC for maximizing credit card points over the last year (never carry a balance tho!).

DPete27 wrote:

I wouldn't pay $115 for CAS 8 RAM, when you can get CAS 9 for ~$90.

...or $84 for 2x8 GiB PC3-12800 Crucial BLS2CP8G3D1609DS1S00 (DDR3-1600, CAS 9, 1.5 V).
That looks like the same memory that I used in my living room PC ten months ago.

DPete27 wrote:

1) Does this "Amazon credit" expire anytime soon. It sounds like a decent chunk of change, but I'd still suggest comparing prices on Amazon and Newegg before you buy (make sure to include any shipping at newegg). If the amazon credit can be used for other things, there's no reason to spend an extra $50 (for example) over newegg. Obviously there's a cutoff for everyone. To me, $50 might be the limit, to you it might be $25, but you know what I mean.

2) The amount of ram needed is different for everyone based on their usage. While 8GB is optimal right now, eventually 16GB will be "the norm." That said, I wouldn't pay $115 for CAS 8 RAM, when you can get CAS 9 for ~$90. The performance differences will be minimal.

I recently did a build for a friend and found every peace of the build cheaper on Amazon then Newegg, couple that with being a Prime member and having free 2 day shipping made Amazon the easy choice.
http://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Ballistix-DDR3-1600-240-Pin-BLS2CP8G3D1609DS1S00/dp/B006YG9EEW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1362246206&sr=8-2&keywords=crucial+ballistix+sport
I used this in the last 3 towers I built. So far its been solid. $84

Bashiba wrote:

I recently did a build for a friend and found every peace of the build cheaper on Amazon then Newegg, couple that with being a Prime member and having free 2 day shipping made Amazon the easy choice.
http://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Ballistix-DDR3-1600-240-Pin-BLS2CP8G3D1609DS1S00/dp/B006YG9EEW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1362246206&sr=8-2&keywords=crucial+ballistix+sport
I used this in the last 3 towers I built. So far its been solid. $84

Seems like Amazon is doing a pretty great job of matching or just beating all other online retailers on computer parts. Makes a Prime Membership a great value - though I did get a Shoprunner membership for free a few months back.

Okay, so, I've decided to go with the Corsair Carbide 400r for my case ($89 on Amazon, $89 on Newegg only after MIR). Good cable management, good airflow, decently quiet - seems like an all around great mid-range case and doesn't break the bank. I'd prefer the Graphite 600T, but its $70-80 more.



Stuck on the motherboard for the moment since I'm double-checking my Asrock Z77 Pro-4M choice. Mostly, I'm concerned about its VRM performance since I plan on overclocking and lack of Intel Gigabit LAN. (I realize too much overclocking may mean I've got to replace that 430W power supply). I'd prefer to stick with an mATX configuration, but I'll move to a regular ATX board to get the right platform for my gaming and overclocking. I went with a less than optimal MoBO for my HTPC last time (no optical out!), so I don't want to make the same mistake again.

Cost wise, I have the Virginia Micro Center next to me, so one of their CPU/Mobo combo deals would be great. Otherwise, my limit on CPU+Mobo is around $300, and the 3570K costs $190, leaving $110ish for the Mobo. Any recommendations?

EDIT: A bit of research has led me to the Gigabyte Z77MX-D3H Z77 mATX motherboard. It's supposed to have full digital VRM, and it has Atheros gigabit LAN rather than Realtek. What do you all think?

Also, I've done some scrounging around and found an older, now defunct, HP PC that has a Windows Vista license on it. Can I use that Vista license on my new build? Seems like Vista supports Direct X11, so will that all work with today's newest games and my desire to overclock?

southrncomfortjm wrote:

A bit of research has led me to the Gigabyte Z77MX-D3H Z77 mATX motherboard. It's supposed to have full digital VRM

Meh, The Pro4-M has digital VRM too, and they both have a 4+2 phase design with VRM heatsinks. I'd say the Pro4-M and D3H are on equal ground there. And I really don't think it's worth buying a motherboard for a "non-Realtek" NIC.
If you want an upgrade from the Pro4-M, I'd suggest the Asus P8Z77M-Pro for $94 after $50 combo discount. Here's a comparison lineup between the three. Asus has the best UEFI/Software in the market right now. And their fan controls are much better (if you're into that kind of thing).

DPete27 wrote:

southrncomfortjm wrote:

A bit of research has led me to the Gigabyte Z77MX-D3H Z77 mATX motherboard. It's supposed to have full digital VRM

Meh, The Pro4-M has digital VRM too, and they both have a 4+2 phase design with VRM heatsinks. I'd say the Pro4-M and D3H are on equal ground there. And I really don't think it's worth buying a motherboard for a "non-Realtek" NIC.
If you want an upgrade from the Pro4-M, I'd suggest the Asus P8Z77M-Pro for $94 after $50 combo discount. Here's a comparison lineup between the three. Asus has the best UEFI/Software in the market right now. And their fan controls are much better (if you're into that kind of thing).

You use the ASRock Z77 Pro4-m, what kinds of overclocks have you been able to get on it using your 3570K? Any issues with power or cooling? I don't need anything extreme on an overclock - seems like 4.4ghz is normally pretty doable and anything around that would be great for me. I understand that overclocking results vary between individual processors. How's Asrock's software?

Ok the best thing to do is play the games on your current rig as best as you can and wait till well after the consoles pop to then get your next gaming rig.

You want to fully nail down just what the hell devs do pc wise when the consoles show up.. they could start using a lot more textures and higher res textures ballooning vid card mem reqs to 2-4 even 6 gigs. They could also start consuming tons of ram just for the game and ais and such...

Ad we have no way to know what cpu to get to make do because they wont optimize worth diddly on pc anymore then they did this last time so we don't know how much we need to overshoot the consoles cpu power.

As far as hdd/ssd space... the games are going to be fricken huge AND the expansions are likely to also eat gobs of space... so expect to need 50-70 gig per game before long. Sooo... your planning ssd a 120 giger is stupid. Your gona need at least 500 gig. Even for a small group of next gen games and their dlc/mods.

What im doing is catching flash sales and any deep sales on steam and stocking up on cheapo games to set me up for the next few years until I can afford a new computer that would actualy run next gen games.

southrncomfortjm wrote:

Stuck on the motherboard for the moment since I'm double-checking my Asrock Z77 Pro-4M choice. Mostly, I'm concerned about its VRM performance since I plan on overclocking and lack of Intel Gigabit LAN. (I realize too much overclocking may mean I've got to replace that 430W power supply). I'd prefer to stick with an mATX configuration, but I'll move to a regular ATX board to get the right platform for my gaming and overclocking. I went with a less than optimal MoBO for my HTPC last time (no optical out!), so I don't want to make the same mistake again.
A bit of research has led me to the Gigabyte Z77MX-D3H Z77 mATX motherboard. It's supposed to have full digital VRM

DPete27 wrote:

Meh, The Pro4-M has digital VRM too, and they both have a 4+2 phase design with VRM heatsinks. I'd say the Pro4-M and D3H are on equal ground there. And I really don't think it's worth buying a motherboard for a "non-Realtek" NIC.
If you want an upgrade from the Pro4-M, I'd suggest the Asus P8Z77M-Pro for $94 after $50 combo discount. Here's a comparison lineup between the three. Asus has the best UEFI/Software in the market right now. And their fan controls are much better (if you're into that kind of thing).

All of the reviews that I've read of the ASRock Z77 Pro4-M have been positive. I've got that Asus P8Z77-M Pro motherboard in my living room PC. The fan controls are excellent, but you'll have to decide if you want to spend an extra $35 on your build.

Here's a few things:
- If you're overclocking _anything_ get more than a 430w PSU.

- The z77m-pro is a decent motherboard unless you are intending to run SLI at a later date, in which case get the "extreme" version.

- If you are buying in stages, the things that have the shortest lifecycle is GPUs, so buy that last to avoid as much depreciation as you can! Where you will get 3-4 years out of a cpu, you won't get more than about 2-3 years out of a GPU unless you buy top of the line.

- There is almost no point overclocking cpus at this point aside from bragging rights, so my recommendation is to put the cooling budget elsewhere

- Nvidia vs ATI - personal choice, Nvidia has better support for stuff (eg physx/cuda) but ATi is faster at general compute and will be in the next gen big consoles.

- Ram memory speed is all but irrelevant to performance once you go above DDR3-1600, overclocking this makes very little sense and could mean an earlier replacement, the only exception to this is if you're doing a lot of stuff with the memory or the integrated gpu, which you are not.

- I would consider having a separate SSD for the OS, and a quick mechanical disk for games and bulk data storage. If you want later you can add a second ssd for "frequently played" games.

southrncomfortjm wrote:

Also, I've done some scrounging around and found an older, now defunct, HP PC that has a Windows Vista license on it. Can I use that Vista license on my new build? Seems like Vista supports Direct X11, so will that all work with today's newest games and my desire to overclock?

Legally - probably not Although it may still work if you call the MS activation phone line and tell that your "motherboard died" and you are "replacing" it with new one I wouldn't bother with Vista, though - it can get a little bit... sluggish from time to time So just get a new OS license, either Win7 or Win8 (whichever you personally prefer) - a $100 is not that much money to spend once a few years for a crucial piece of software.

"So I'm looking, very long term, to put together a gaming build since I'm not thrilled with the news I'm hearing about the next gen consoles."

Didn't you read about the PS4? Apparently it is supposed to have about the same jam as a radeon 7850.

southrncomfortjm wrote:

what kinds of overclocks have you been able to get on it using your 3570K? Any issues with power or cooling?

I actually haven't gotten around to OCing my 3570K (sorry for any false hopes), but I have every reason to believe I could reach 4.3GHz at stock voltage.

1) For an "everyday overclock" many would not recommend increasing CPU voltages over stock. It increases heat output and will shorten the life-expectancy of your CPU.
2) With that "limitation" in place, there isn't much additional stress on the VRM. Most any motherboard will be able to achieve the same OC results at stock voltage. However, it's still a very good idea to get a board with VRM heatsinks if you want to OC...especially if you plan on slapping a tower-style CPU heatsink on.
3) Additional power phases become an advantage when you're pushing voltages above stock for a max OC. (sometimes a rediculous amount of phases for LN2 overclocking) This type of OCing is aimed at producing a high benchmark number for epeen. If you're an "extreme" overclocker, the additional phases may be necessary, but like I said before, not so much for an everyday-stock-voltage overclock.
4) There are other differences between the Pro4-M and the P8Z77M-Pro besides power phases though. Weigh those differences to your needs.

southrncomfortjm wrote:

How's Asrock's software?

I like their UEFI better than MSI's for my FM2 HTPC. I haven't used Gigabyte's new UEFI yet, so I can't comment on that. See here for comparisons between Asus, AsRock, MSI, and Gigabyte.

Thanks for the tips everyone!

jazper wrote:

Here's a few things:
- If you're overclocking _anything_ get more than a 430w PSU.

- I would consider having a separate SSD for the OS, and a quick mechanical disk for games and bulk data storage. If you want later you can add a second ssd for "frequently played" games.

I felt the same way about the power supply after looking at a few things. So I've decided to upgrade to the Rosewill Tachyon Series Tachyon 550W for $75 after MIR. It's modular and platinum certified. Yes, its way more than the one I had, but its priced the same as some non-modular, lower wattage, lower 80-plus cert supplies. Feel much more comfortable with this one despite the higher price tag. Allows me to consider a Crossfire setup down the road if the microstuttering issues get resolved. Will be interesting to see how Crossfired 7850’s compare to next gen, or generation after next, cards.

The SSD will be my OS and high performance game drive. I have some spare mechanicals around the house that I can use for other stuff. I may be able to pick up a 60gb SSD down the road for just the OS.

JohnC wrote:

Legally - probably not Although it may still work if you call the MS activation phone line and tell that your "motherboard died" and you are "replacing" it with new one I wouldn't bother with Vista, though - it can get a little bit... sluggish from time to time So just get a new OS license, either Win7 or Win8 (whichever you personally prefer) - a $100 is not that much money to spend once a few years for a crucial piece of software.

Yeah, I felt the same after some research. Going with Windows 8. Buying the OS is my least favorite part of any new build.

anotherengineer wrote:

"So I'm looking, very long term, to put together a gaming build since I'm not thrilled with the news I'm hearing about the next gen consoles."

Didn't you read about the PS4? Apparently it is supposed to have about the same jam as a radeon 7850.

Which is great for me I guess. I should, at a minimum, be able to keep up with PS4, and maybe Xbox 720, for a while by turning down some graphics settings.

DPete27 wrote:

southrncomfortjm wrote:

what kinds of overclocks have you been able to get on it using your 3570K? Any issues with power or cooling?

I actually haven't gotten around to OCing my 3570K (sorry for any false hopes), but I have every reason to believe I could reach 4.3GHz at stock voltage.

1) For an "everyday overclock" many would not recommend increasing CPU voltages over stock. It increases heat output and will shorten the life-expectancy of your CPU.
2) With that "limitation" in place, there isn't much additional stress on the VRM. Most any motherboard will be able to achieve the same OC results at stock voltage. However, it's still a very good idea to get a board with VRM heatsinks if you want to OC...especially if you plan on slapping a tower-style CPU heatsink on.
3) Additional power phases become an advantage when you're pushing voltages above stock for a max OC. (sometimes a rediculous amount of phases for LN2 overclocking) This type of OCing is aimed at producing a high benchmark number for epeen. If you're an "extreme" overclocker, the additional phases may be necessary, but like I said before, not so much for an everyday-stock-voltage overclock.
4) There are other differences between the Pro4-M and the P8Z77M-Pro besides power phases though. Weigh those differences to your needs.

southrncomfortjm wrote:

How's Asrock's software?

I like their UEFI better than MSI's for my FM2 HTPC. I haven't used Gigabyte's new UEFI yet, so I can't comment on that. See here for comparisons between Asus, AsRock, MSI, and Gigabyte.

Yeah, I’m not looking to impress anyone. I just want to get as much “free” extra performance as I can without doing damage and 4.3ghz sounds like a great deal. I’m sure I’ll give a higher overclock a try just for kicks, but I don’t want to burn the machine out really early trying to get 10 more FPS out of Battlefield 3.

Looks like the Pro4 has pretty lame heatsinks while the Extreme4 has some slightly beefier ones. For peace of mind I may splurge and get the Extreme4 ATX version for $25 more. I don’t want to see smoke! Also thinking about adding a sound card and wireless card, so a few extra PCI and PCIe slots will give the graphics card some breathing room.

I read that massive AnandTech review last night. The Extreme4 seems like the best value overall, if a bit flimsier on the construction side.

I would not... Rosewill power supply.

I would Seasonic.

I agree with the seasonic recommendation and suggest you look at silverstone also.

As for the flimsy comment - Lots of people complain about the flimsiness (?) of Asrock boards, however I have not seen one complaint about a board breaking and having used 5 of the boards myself, I haven't had any issues. Flexible boards imo are a good thing, just have to be careful not to overtighten the motherboard stands.

jazper wrote:

I agree with the seasonic recommendation and suggest you look at silverstone also.

flip-mode wrote:

I would not... Rosewill power supply.

I would Seasonic.

Lame, thanks for looking out though.

Okay, so - which?

Seasonic 550W modular 80plus Gold for $89.

or

Silverstone 600W modular 80plus bronze for $80.

Or is it a coin flip?

Assuming both are powering a system that is pulling 350 watts, the 80plus Gold Seasonic should run cooler because it more efficient and losing less power to heat right?

One gripe against the SeaSonic are the shorter cables. I'm using a Corsair Carbide 500R so longer cables will be useful so I can keep things neat.

I'm leaning towards the Silverstone.

I've been using this one for about a year:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817151095
It's "bronze", but these ratings are pretty much meaningless to normal home users (only relevant if you're buying dozens of PCs for a business)

Although you should also be fine with that 550W model - your system will consume less than 400W at full load, so... It's your choice

JohnC wrote:

I've been using this one for about a year:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817151095
It's "bronze", but these ratings are pretty much meaningless to normal home users (only relevant if you're buying dozens of PCs for a business)

Although you should also be fine with that 550W model - your system will consume less than 400W at full load, so... It's your choice

How big is your case? Just want to be sure the cables are long enough.

southrncomfortjm wrote:

JohnC wrote:

I've been using this one for about a year:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817151095
It's "bronze", but these ratings are pretty much meaningless to normal home users (only relevant if you're buying dozens of PCs for a business)

Although you should also be fine with that 550W model - your system will consume less than 400W at full load, so... It's your choice

How big is your case? Just want to be sure the cables are long enough.

I have Antec P183, so you can look up its dimensions... I had no problem with cable lengths with it.

JohnC wrote:

southrncomfortjm wrote:

JohnC wrote:

I've been using this one for about a year:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817151095
It's "bronze", but these ratings are pretty much meaningless to normal home users (only relevant if you're buying dozens of PCs for a business)

Although you should also be fine with that 550W model - your system will consume less than 400W at full load, so... It's your choice

How big is your case? Just want to be sure the cables are long enough.

I have Antec P183, so you can look up its dimensions... I had no problem with cable lengths with it.

The Carbide is only a bit bigger, so all is good on that front.

If not one has a good reason not to get this PSU, I'll order it up. Need high quality power for my rig!

I see no reason not to get the Rosewill Tachyon 550W model. Tomshardware has compiled an extensive list of PSU OEM manufacturers that I would HIGHLY recommend saving in your favorites. The Rosewill Tachyon series PSUs have Superflower inards, who are a perfectly respectable OEM. Also, see a review of the 750W Tachyon here. It performs very well.

DPete27 wrote:

I see no reason not to get the Rosewill Tachyon 550W model. Tomshardware has compiled an extensive list of PSU OEM manufacturers that I would HIGHLY recommend saving in your favorites. The Rosewill Tachyon series PSUs have Superflower inards, who are a perfectly respectable OEM. Also, see a review of the 750W Tachyon here. It performs very well.

Well, according to that HardwareSecrets review, it uses sleeve bearing fan... Which is probably the same for 550w model. Personally, I'd rather prefer a ball bearing fan, for potentially better long-term reliability and longevity Of course, if you don't care about such things and would prefer to save a few $0.01's on an (potentially) inferior fan - it's up to you

I could agree that the Seasonic G Series PSU is probably a bit better in the build quality department (using the aforementioned ball bearing fan). (Review here)
That being said, it also costs $15 more than the Rosewill...I guess the OP will have to decide if the cost difference is worth it. Both units are much better than my OCZ 550W PSU which has been serving me well without issues for 3 years. (if it ain't broke...)

The main point to get across here is to NOT choose some super chintzy PSU. At the level of PSU we're talking about now, I think we're splitting hairs.

DPete27 wrote:

That being said, it also costs $15 more than the Rosewill...

Not really, no. At check-out you'll be paying the same amount. Rosewill unit has a rebate, BUT it may or may not arrive... After a several weeks/months. And it is in a form of VISA card, which may or may not be convenient to redeem

DPete27 wrote:

At the level of PSU we're talking about now, I think we're splitting hairs.

Eh, whatever gets the conversation going...

JohnC wrote:

DPete27 wrote:

That being said, it also costs $15 more than the Rosewill...

Not really, no. At check-out you'll be paying the same amount. Rosewill unit has a rebate, BUT it may or may not arrive... After a several weeks/months. And it is in a form of VISA card, which may or may not be convenient to redeem

DPete27 wrote:

At the level of PSU we're talking about now, I think we're splitting hairs.

Eh, whatever gets the conversation going...

But splitting hairs is where we have all the fun! Wouldn't need a forum if choices were easy.

Will sleep on it.