TR Forums

Maybe you should define 'obsolete.'

Well it certelly doesn't mean useless.

DancinJack wrote:

whm1974 wrote:

Looking up Z97 motherboards on newegg for some friends of mine, I notice that OEMs are still putting PCI slots on their boards. WHY? I thought PCI died a long time ago.

Party because Intel CPU's do have a ton of extra PCI-e lanes. Partly for backward compatibly for people like SSK who don't want to spend money on PCI-e expansion cards. Mostly for unknown, ridiculous reasoning I can't wrap my brain around.

Third post. And yet we have two and half more pages?

edit: reading over this i made a typo though. Intel CPU's DON'T, not do.

NovusBogus wrote:

whm1974 wrote:

I hold a lot more grief for VGA ports than PCI slots anyday.

Well since they put VGA ports on cheap LCD monitoners I can see why.

Plus, in the business world, VGA is still the gold standard especially in presentation spaces. All of the conference room projectors at work are wired for VGA only, and all but one of them are 1024x768. VGA will outlast everything, even HDMI.

Intel and AMD sign death warrant for VGA port

The two chipmakers are joined by Dell, Lenovo, Samsung, and LG in an industry-spanning agreement to phase out VGA entirely by 2015, and to standardize solely on HDMI and DisplayPort.

The decline is beginning.

I'm using one for my Xonar D1. Do "modern" Xonars even support PCIe natively yet, or are they still using a bridge chip?

I feel like there was a reason the D1 (PCI) was slightly superior to the DX (PCIe) at the time, but I can't remember anymore. Maybe cost? I do know that until very recently, if you wanted the "best" (most full-featured, maybe) Xonar setup, the Essence ST + the H6 daughterboard, PCI was your only option. This changed with the release STX II... but as I said, that was recent.

The decline is beginning.

Evern so, VGA may live on for many years since it takes time to replace equipment.

whm1974 wrote:

The decline is beginning.

Even so, VGA may live on for many years since it takes time to replace equipment.

You know, maybe I'm weird, but I rather like DVI. Digital, and sufficient for the displays I run (I don't have any over 1080p), but it's slightly dumb - ie. I don't get the "feature" of Windows detecting when I turned my monitor on/off. Annoying as hell with a multi-monitor setup. And as for a DP/HDMI only world - I was looking at Geforce 730's the other day (thinking about getting a card that's half-height/supports 3 monitors for an older PC retrofit), and those are generally DVI/HDMI/VGA - and can run all 3 at once apparently. They don't even seem to have a DP option.

Edit: And now that I think about it, all the recent biz machines I've seen, save for ultrabooks, still have VGA, often paired with DP - Dells, HP 600/800/640, Thinkpad t440s. I have seen some recent consumer machines (cheap thinish Dells) with only HDMI out though, no VGA.

On the other hand, I've seen fairly recent ASUS 1366x768 18.5" LED-backlit monitors that ONLY have VGA in. And it looks like crap by default, since it's too dumb to detect the right resolution. Feed 1366x768 in, and unless you tell it that's what it's getting, the picture and text looks like crap. Never seen any other LCDs that manage to do that either, including tons of 17" ones going as far back as 2003.

On the other hand, I've seen fairly recent ASUS 1366x768 18.5" LED-backlit monitors that ONLY have VGA in. And it looks like crap by default, since it's too dumb to detect the right resolution. Feed 1366x768 in, and unless you tell it that's what it's getting, the picture and text looks like crap. Never seen any other LCDs that manage to do that either, including tons of 17" ones going as far back as 2003.

I have no idea why they are making LCD displays with VGA in only. I could see still supporting VGA however with HDMI port(s).

whm1974 wrote:

On the other hand, I've seen fairly recent ASUS 1366x768 18.5" LED-backlit monitors that ONLY have VGA in. And it looks like crap by default, since it's too dumb to detect the right resolution. Feed 1366x768 in, and unless you tell it that's what it's getting, the picture and text looks like crap. Never seen any other LCDs that manage to do that either, including tons of 17" ones going as far back as 2003.

I have no idea why they are making LCD displays with VGA in only. I could see still supporting VGA however with HDMI port(s).

But I thought HDMI was just DVI on steroids (including audio). No analog compatibility whatsoever, unlike Displayport.

The school district I work for had bought those ASUS panels for thin clients (ncomputing), but due to some miscommunication, someone else had already gotten decent 1080p panels for those stations. Sadly, we ended up replacing some 17" HP panels with those 768p pieces of junk. I would've chucked the 768p panels straight in the ecycle pile and kept the 17" ones in service (those had a few years on them, but not that many backlight hours), but maybe that's just me. I wouldn't take one of those 768 panels even if you gave them to me for free - they're not worth my time or a port on a multi-monitor setup, not when I have quite a few 17" 1280x1024 panels sitting around. I guess they are more energy efficient than 17" CCFLs, but that's about it. And as much as I can be a tree hugger at times, I still don't like the 768 ASUS's over the older 17" panels under any situation.

still running an auzentech x-mystique on pci, it has been through like 4 builds since i got it.
honestly aside from my gpu, nothing is using the abundance of pcie slots on my 990fx board...
bought the auzentech sound card back in 2006, the cmedia 8768+ chipset on it seems to be fairly close to the low end asus xonar products using cm8786 chipsets.
just has the extra bonus of analog up to 7.1 and a spdif coax port if i need it, or to plug the coax into a receiver with it...

pci is still available for random legacy crap that still works on for whatever it has to do, mainly though just sound cards that people like us don't feel like getting rid of yet because they work fine.

PCI is a legacy interface for legacy platforms and hardware.

The last PCI card that I used was a Xonar DG on my old Q6600 rig.

But I thought HDMI was just DVI on steroids (including audio). No analog compatibility whatsoever, unlike Displayport.

It doesn't. I ment having a VGA port along with HDMI and other modern ports.

I wouldn't take one of those 768 panels even if you gave them to me for free - they're not worth my time or a port on a multi-monitor setup, not when I have quite a few 17" 1280x1024 panels sitting around. I guess they are more energy efficient than 17" CCFLs, but that's about it. And as much as I can be a tree hugger at times, I still don't like the 768 ASUS's over the older 17" panels under any situation.

When put together my dad's system, he wanted to replace the display he had as well. I made sure he got a 1080p 24" display from Newegg instead of the El Cheapo he was going to get at Wal-Mart.

I use one for my Xonar Essence ST.

Just to entertain you further, that card also requires 1 Molex power connector for the headphone amp.

Just to entertain you further, that card also requires 1 Molex power connector for the headphone amp

People still use those? I got some with my moduler PSU, but I didn't connect any.

To sum it up, the average Z97/H97 board has:
- no DP out
- HDMI that can't run 2560x1440x60Hz but comes close ... with some hacking
- single-link DVI that can't run 2560x1440x60Hz
- VGA, which is a zombie because Intel & AMD have been killing it for years
- no DVI-I either, which would save some space
- a serial port (of course there's use for it but come on - it's on most boards!)
- a PS/2 KB port because somehow, at 16 kb/s, it has less latency than a 5 Gb/s USB port
- two PCI slots - one for the soundcard, one for the backup soundcard.

- no DP out
- HDMI that can't run 2560x1440x60Hz but comes close ... with some hacking
- single-link DVI that can't run 2560x1440x60Hz

If you doing resolutions higher then 1080p, then wouldn't you use a good graphics card?

- a PS/2 KB port because somehow, at 16 kb/s, it has less latency than a 5 Gb/s USB port
- two PCI slots - one for the soundcard, one for the backup soundcard.

I can see the advantages now of having a few PCI slots. And the PS/2 port saved my system when I turn off USB 2 support in my BIOS(why was that even there?).

Wirko wrote:

The average Z97/H97 board has...

Did you look at micro-ATX motherboards like the $92 H97M-G43, $122-10MIR Z97M-G43 and $160 -20MIR Z97M Gaming from MSI and the $162 Gryphon Z97 from Asus that I linked earlier in this thread?

If you're building an SLI/Crossfire system on an ATX motherboard, there are options like...
MSI
$106 -10MIR H97 Guard-Pro
$110 -20MIR Z97 Guard-Pro
$180 -10MIR Z97 Gaming 7
$250 -20MIR Z97 MPower Max AC
$280 -30MIR Z97-Gaming 9
$299 -20MIR Z97-Gaming 9 ACK
$309 Z97A Gaming 9 ACK / USB 3.1
$365 Z97 XPower AC

ASRock
$141 -15MIR Z97 Extreme4
$167 -15MIR Z97 Extreme6
$185 -30MIR F* Z97 Professional
$198¼ Z97 Extreme6/ac

Asus
$165 Sabertooth Z97 Mk. II
$190 Z97 Pro
$210 Z97-Pro(Wi-Fi ac)
$224 Z97-Pro(Wi-Fi ac) / USB 3.1
$240 Sabertooth Z97 Mk. I
$264 Sabertooth Z97 Mk. I / USB 3.1
$279 Z97-Deluxe
$284 Z97-WS
$299 Sabertooth Mk. S
$304 Z97-Deluxe / USB 3.1
$390 Z97-Deluxe(NFC & WLC)

Gigabyte
$209 -30MIR GA-Z97X-Gaming GT
$285 GA-Z97X-Gaming G1
$328 GA-Z97X-Gaming G1 WiFi-BK

EVGA
$161 -20MIR Z97 FTW (142-HR-E977-KR)
$300 -20MIR Z97 Classified (152-HR-E979-KR)

That's more than two dozen motherboards from the four main manufacturers with DisplayPort and no obsolete PCI slots.

localhostrulez wrote:

But I thought HDMI was just DVI on steroids (including audio). No analog compatibility whatsoever, unlike Displayport.

You need an active adapter to drive VGA from Displayport. Just like HDMI, it has no native analog video capability. (DVI has optional analog pins which can drive VGA with a passive adapter.)

whm1974 wrote:

Just to entertain you further, that card also requires 1 Molex power connector for the headphone amp

People still use those? I got some with my moduler PSU, but I didn't connect any.

For your geeky amusement: http://justbrewit.net/trstuff/matenlok.pdf

What is it, you ask? Well... it is an early engineering drawing for an AMP Mate-N-Lok connector, which is what we now know as "the Molex connector". Hand-drawn by a human draftsman. In 1966. (And the connector design had already been around for a few years by then.)

Think of it this way... time-wise, the Molex connector was invented closer to World War I than to today!

That's 26 motherboards from the four main manufacturers with DisplayPort and no obsolete PCI slots

Your Newegg search-fu must better then mine. I couldn't find any Z97 boards with no PCI slots.

For your geeky amusement: http://justbrewit.net/trstuff/matenlok.pdf

What is it, you ask? Well... it is an early engineering drawing for an AMP Mate-N-Lok connector, which is what we now know as "the Molex connector". Hand-drawn by a human draftsman. In 1966. (And the connector design had already been around for a few years by then.)

Think of it this way... time-wise, the Molex connector was invented closer to World War I than to today!

I knew the the Molex connector has been around for awhile, But didn't know it was that old.

whm1974 wrote:

I can see the advantages now of having a few PCI slots. And the PS/2 port saved my system when I turn off USB 2 support in my BIOS(why was that even there?).

People who work under clearances may disable their PCs' USB physically, this could be a traditional BIOS feature remarketed for that need.

whm1974 wrote:

Your Newegg search-fu must better then mine. I couldn't find any Z97 boards with no PCI slots.

There are many more:

http://skinflint.co.uk/?cat=mbp4_1150&v=e&hloc=at&hloc=de&hloc=pl&hloc=uk&hloc=eu&bl1_id=30&sort=p&xf=317_Z97~489_sonstige#xf_top

I used the same database to find out what the "average" Z97/H97 board has onboard, and what it doesn't have:

http://skinflint.co.uk/?cat=mbp4_1150&v=e&hloc=at&hloc=de&hloc=pl&hloc=uk&hloc=eu&bl1_id=30&sort=p&xf=317_Z97~317_H97#xf_top

(and my claim was false; the average board has only 0.96 PCI ports.)

JAE, thanks a lot - but I belong to the subspecies of Homo sapiens that wants PCI to live a little longer. Good good old old soundcard, that's why.

As it turns out, PCI + DisplayPort + microATX = Q87, more or less. Or B85. I'm not glad about that.

Wirko wrote:

I belong to the subspecies that wants PCI to live a little longer.

Here you go:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813186225

I use the PCI slot on my z97 board for an IDE card, that's double obsolescence.

There's no need to use an obsolete PCI slot to plug in your obsolete parallel ATA drive. A SATA to IDE bridge works very well.

JustAnEngineer wrote:

There's no need to use an obsolete PCI slot to plug in your obsolete parallel ATA drive. A SATA to IDE bridge works very well.

Or just use one of those USB-to-every-HDD-interface adapters to pull the files off, then toss it.

I have to (indirectly) support optical measuring machines, laser engravers, CNC laser cutting machine, a 3D printer, a pick and place robot, and numerous product test systems that have legacy PCI cards in them. I think we even have a couple of machines with 16-bit ISA bus cards in them. You don't throw out a $100k machine because the interface cards use a bus standard that is no longer the new hotness.

I've got a couple of ancient and unused PCI anologue TV/video capture cards. Maybe one day I'll get around to digitising my collection of VHS videos... At least, I like the idea I _could_

mnecaise wrote:

I have to (indirectly) support optical measuring machines, laser engravers, CNC laser cutting machine, a 3D printer, a pick and place robot, and numerous product test systems that have legacy PCI cards in them. I think we even have a couple of machines with 16-bit ISA bus cards in them. You don't throw out a $100k machine because the interface cards use a bus standard that is no longer the new hotness.

Dang - I get that business PCs usually still have a serial port for that kind of stuff (ex. Dell 9010/HP 800, and maybe HP 650/15" laptop), but ISA? Let me guess, that equipment doesn't work with Windows 7 either?

Still have a PCI Xonar DG each in my primary desktop and my HTPC.

Also, my thanks to the OP for raising this subject, because as a direct consequence of verifying the hardware in the HTPC, I discovered a spider attempting to set up shop in the chassis. He has been dispatched appropriately.

localhostrulez wrote:

Dang - I get that business PCs usually still have a serial port for that kind of stuff (ex. Dell 9010/HP 800, and maybe HP 650/15" laptop), but ISA? Let me guess, that equipment doesn't work with Windows 7 either?

As of just a few years ago, there were still point-of-sale systems being sold that ran on Windows 3.x.