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localhostrulez
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:30 am

just brew it! wrote:
localhostrulez wrote:
Dang - I get that business PCs usually still have a serial port for that kind of stuff (ex. Dell 9010/HP 800, and maybe HP 650/15" laptop), but ISA? Let me guess, that equipment doesn't work with Windows 7 either?

As of just a few years ago, there were still point-of-sale systems being sold that ran on Windows 3.x.

Suddenly, having an XP machine at work for the HVAC system (old one was Windows 2000 up until a year ago, when it died) and an XP machine for the bell server at one of my work's campuses (school district) doesn't seem too bad.
 
whm1974
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:08 am

I have to (indirectly) support optical measuring machines, laser engravers, CNC laser cutting machine, a 3D printer, a pick and place robot, and numerous product test systems that have legacy PCI cards in them. I think we even have a couple of machines with 16-bit ISA bus cards in them. You don't throw out a $100k machine because the interface cards use a bus standard that is no longer the new hotness.


Dang - I get that business PCs usually still have a serial port for that kind of stuff (ex. Dell 9010/HP 800, and maybe HP 650/15" laptop), but ISA? Let me guess, that equipment doesn't work with Windows 7 either?


As of just a few years ago, there were still point-of-sale systems being sold that ran on Windows 3.x.


A few years ago(three?) A guy I knew told me he had installed FreeDOS on some systems to support some of this stuff. Is there a LInux Distro that can work with some of this stuff?
 
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:10 am

JustAnEngineer wrote:
Sound cards, TV tuners, disk controllers, USB expansion cards, etc. all switched to PCIe in mid-2008. There has been no reason for a new gaming PC to need a PCI slot since then.

You are not forced to buy a motherboard with obsolete PCI slots. There are better-designed alternatives available.

That's a rather arrogant viewpoint and approach. How does PCI hurt me exactly, as a user? If I were to spend extra on a PCIe alternative, what would I gain?
 
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:02 am

whm1974 wrote:
A few years ago(three?) A guy I knew told me he had installed FreeDOS on some systems to support some of this stuff. Is there a LInux Distro that can work with some of this stuff?

I haven't messed with DOS emulation/virtualization on Linux myself, but there are multiple potential approaches -- DOSBox (full-blown DOS emulator), DOSEMU (virtualization tool specifically designed to host DOS-like OSes), and VirtualBox (general-purpose x86 virtualization tool), to name a few. All are available in the software repositories for Debian and its derived distros (e.g. Ubuntu, Mint), probably for the Redhat and SuSE families of distros as well (didn't bother to check, since I don't use them). I imagine each of these approaches has its pros and cons, depending on what you're trying to do.
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whm1974
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:11 am

I haven't messed with DOS emulation/virtualization on Linux myself, but there are multiple potential approaches -- DOSBox (full-blown DOS emulator), DOSEMU (virtualization tool specifically designed to host DOS-like OSes), and VirtualBox (general-purpose x86 virtualization tool), to name a few. All are available in the software repositories for Debian and its derived distros (e.g. Ubuntu, Mint), probably for the Redhat and SuSE families of distros as well (didn't bother to check, since I don't use them). I imagine each of these approaches has its pros and cons, depending on what you're trying to do.


I thought it might be useful for old manufactoring equipment that is longer being supported by the vendors any more.
 
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:42 am

whm1974 wrote:
I haven't messed with DOS emulation/virtualization on Linux myself, but there are multiple potential approaches -- DOSBox (full-blown DOS emulator), DOSEMU (virtualization tool specifically designed to host DOS-like OSes), and VirtualBox (general-purpose x86 virtualization tool), to name a few. All are available in the software repositories for Debian and its derived distros (e.g. Ubuntu, Mint), probably for the Redhat and SuSE families of distros as well (didn't bother to check, since I don't use them). I imagine each of these approaches has its pros and cons, depending on what you're trying to do.

I thought it might be useful for old manufactoring equipment that is longer being supported by the vendors any more.

It can certainly help on the software side; but less so with proprietary hardware that is only available for obsolete buses like ISA.

As an aside, legacy RS-232/422 serial ports are often another sticking point. Sure, we have USB-to-serial converters; but most of them leave a lot to be desired. At best, they introduce latency. At worst (which is the case with most of the inexpensive converters/adapters you see for sale on Newegg, Amazon, and at B&M retailers) they just don't work reliably. Because of this, I still favor motherboards that have a header for a hard-wired southbridge COM port!

Tip #1: If you want a USB serial converter that actually works (latency issue aside), look for something that uses a chipset made by FTDI.

Tip #2: FWIW the cheap-ass non-FTDI USB serial chipsets are somewhat less problematic on Linux than on Windows. You've got higher odds that they'll do what you want, and the drivers don't tend to crash the OS.
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:03 am

just brew it! wrote:
As of just a few years ago, there were still point-of-sale systems being sold that ran on Windows 3.x.

Hannaford grocery stores here in VT still run on W2K.
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:43 am

localhostrulez wrote:
Dang - I get that business PCs usually still have a serial port for that kind of stuff (ex. Dell 9010/HP 800, and maybe HP 650/15" laptop), but ISA? Let me guess, that equipment doesn't work with Windows 7 either?


Starting with Windows 7 the Windows family of operating systems no longer has ISA support in the kernel.

Windows XP and Vista supports ISA, but only the PnP version of it.

Link

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/tims/archive/20 ... 84490.aspx
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Deanjo
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:03 am

I still use my Auzentech X-Meridian and would have absolutely no benefit to switching it to a PCI-e card.

Edit: Oh ya and also for my SCSI card. Why do I still have a SCSI card you may ask, well for the simple reason that my legal page format Umax scanner with document feeder and 1200 optical dpi still works awesome (in linux that is). Trying to find a legal sized scanner that is reasonably priced is next to impossible to find anymore.
 
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:37 am

The short answer is, anyone who has a need that a PCI card they've got on hand fills. I've got a no frills but functional PCI video capture card that will start backing up VHS tapes after this semester's over. Why go to the trouble & expense of finding a PCIe capture card when this will do the job?
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:24 am

Concupiscence wrote:
The short answer is, anyone who has a need that a PCI card they've got on hand fills.

Exactly. There are plenty of pci cards around that still can perform useful functions for people. It's not like pci is completely obsolete, since many cards do not actually need the bandwidth of pci-e. PCI is like usb for your motherboard. Just because usb3 exists, doesn't mean you should throw out all your usb2 devices. My printer works just fine on usb2. I'm not going to pitch it for a usb3 printer.
 
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:13 pm

Deanjo wrote:
Trying to find a legal sized scanner that is reasonably priced is next to impossible to find anymore.


I'd imagine most people with that need are going with sheet-feed scanners instead due to greater flexibility and less used desk space.

We've had pretty good luck with Fujitsu's ScanSnap S1100 and they're relatively cheap, just $100-$150.
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transitor budget still being paid

Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:50 pm

nitpick but:

Modern Intel chipsets don't even support PCI and haven't for a few years. If an OEM wants PCI slots on their motherboards they've got to use a bridge chip that presumably taps one PCIe lane.


Incorrect. The Q and C versions of the desktop PCH have continued to include native pci controllers for a long time, including the current socket 1150. (or a built in bridge chip if you like)

More importantly they also work with almost any card as they implement PCI 2.whatever to full spec unlike those half-arsed ASmedia or whatever cheap bridge chips that a lot of OEMs use.
Source: painful real world experience. Similar situations exist for most 3rd party NIC and SATA controllers that infect many boards, those chips are cheap for a reason...

Ironically, knowing how intel bins everything down to the 9th circle of hell because their 1st and 2nd death stars have been operational for awhile now and they are building a third:
it is highly likely your Z/H/etc versions you own today actually have the same circuitry, just disabled. The OEMs playing the bullet point/market segmentation game find it cheaper to throw 3rd party chips on a board, and intel also gets in the way by not allowing overclocking etc on Q/C among other things. (If you really want to push my rant button, it only takes three letters: ECC)


BTW, people that whine about PS/2 can get bent. Despite its age, it is still the superior keyboard interface vs USB.
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Re: transitor budget still being paid

Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:05 pm

Bauxite wrote:
(If you really want to push my rant button, it only takes three letters: ECC)

Don't get me started. My feelings regarding ECC (and Intel's use of it as leverage to get anyone who actually cares about their RAM always returning the same bits that were written into it to shell out big $ for a Xeon based system) are well known to anyone who's been hanging around these forums for a while and reading my posts.
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localhostrulez
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:11 pm

l33t-g4m3r wrote:
Concupiscence wrote:
The short answer is, anyone who has a need that a PCI card they've got on hand fills.

Exactly. There are plenty of pci cards around that still can perform useful functions for people. It's not like pci is completely obsolete, since many cards do not actually need the bandwidth of pci-e. PCI is like usb for your motherboard. Just because usb3 exists, doesn't mean you should throw out all your usb2 devices. My printer works just fine on usb2. I'm not going to pitch it for a usb3 printer.

On that note - I'm guessing that Windows is probably dumb with USB serial adapters as well? If I use my printer (15 years old) via a USB parallel adapter, it detects it differently on every single USB port. You have to use the same port every time, and turn on the printer before plugging it in. Else, you get crap like the adapter being detected by itself, or printers like "HP 4050 PCL5", "HP 4050 PCL5 (Copy 1)", "HP 4050 PCL5 (Copy 2)". Much easier to just use ethernet and TCP/IP with it. It's is 15 years old but still works nicely, so I'm not replacing it.
 
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:19 pm

bthylafh wrote:
Deanjo wrote:
Trying to find a legal sized scanner that is reasonably priced is next to impossible to find anymore.


I'd imagine most people with that need are going with sheet-feed scanners instead due to greater flexibility and less used desk space.

We've had pretty good luck with Fujitsu's ScanSnap S1100 and they're relatively cheap, just $100-$150.


Ya but they suck at trying to scan something from a book. :wink:
 
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:59 pm

localhostrulez wrote:
On that note - I'm guessing that Windows is probably dumb with USB serial adapters as well? If I use my printer (15 years old) via a USB parallel adapter, it detects it differently on every single USB port. You have to use the same port every time, and turn on the printer before plugging it in. Else, you get crap like the adapter being detected by itself, or printers like "HP 4050 PCL5", "HP 4050 PCL5 (Copy 1)", "HP 4050 PCL5 (Copy 2)".

That's actually not dumb, it's smart in a way that is working against your purposes. Windows remembers unique settings for each device at each USB port. Unfortunately, for devices such as your parallel adapter, that means that every combination of port and printer connection registers as a unique device configuration.
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Re: transitor budget still being paid

Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:49 pm

Bauxite wrote:
nitpick but:

Modern Intel chipsets don't even support PCI and haven't for a few years. If an OEM wants PCI slots on their motherboards they've got to use a bridge chip that presumably taps one PCIe lane.


Incorrect. The Q and C versions of the desktop PCH have continued to include native pci controllers for a long time, including the current socket 1150. (or a built in bridge chip if you like)

More importantly they also work with almost any card as they implement PCI 2.whatever to full spec unlike those half-arsed ASmedia or whatever cheap bridge chips that a lot of OEMs use.
Source: painful real world experience. Similar situations exist for most 3rd party NIC and SATA controllers that infect many boards, those chips are cheap for a reason...


I suspect those cheap bridge chips cause problems on a fairly regular basis. There's a wireless PCI card I've got that always triggered a glitch with an FM2+ motherboard: it would work fine until a reboot, when some register wasn't properly cleared and the card would report the wrong PCI ID. That happened regardless of the OS that was booted into, with lspci or the Windows device manager indicating there were no device drivers for something that had worked perfectly a few short minutes earlier. The only way to fix it was to fully power down the system, wait a few seconds, then turn it back on, at which point all was well... until the next reboot. The issue never happened on an Intel motherboard that I recall, and it worked with no problems in an AM3+ system before that.
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:40 am

Other than the niche to interface with perfectly functional legacy hardware like old server equipment etc, I don't see the need for old school I/O either.

LAN? RJ45.
Display? DVI-D, HDMI, DP.
USB, PCI-E = Everything else.
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:54 am

strangerguy wrote:
Other than the niche to interface with perfectly functional legacy hardware like old server equipment etc, I don't see the need for old school I/O either.

LAN? RJ45.
Display? DVI-D, HDMI, DP.
USB, PCI-E = Everything else.


I want to move to theory. Everything works in theory.

:P
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localhostrulez
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:24 pm

strangerguy wrote:
Other than the niche to interface with perfectly functional legacy hardware like old server equipment etc, I don't see the need for old school I/O either.

LAN? RJ45.
Display? DVI-D, HDMI, DP.
USB, PCI-E = Everything else.

I'm basically half-old school with display connectors. I love my DVI connectors, goddangit! :lol: Who needs any of that newfangled audio or display detection stuff anyway? And by display detection, I mean my PC detecting when the monitor is turned off and rearranging my desktop - I hate that and use DVI specifically to avoid it. I avoid VGA when possible though.

And I'm gonna keep my ye old Laserjet 4050 in service for as long as I can - who needs those newfangled USB port thingies? (OK, I actually use RJ45 on it... Not sure that anyone ever used the Appletalk/Localtalk port on it, although the printer is from late 1999.) I'd like to play around with RS232 for low-level logic stuff sometime though (I'm an EE student).
 
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:11 pm

I have a couple of PCI Soundblaster X-Fi Xtreme Music cards floating around that I will use in PCs from time to time. I had one in my HTPC for a while until I realized it was doing absolutely nothing (except maybe causing some conflicts) after switching to a Radeon 7750 and using the built in HDMI audio device.

The other identical card was also used for a while in my old HTPC to provide a bit more output volume than the integrated Realtek audio since I had to do some weird cobbled together 3.5mm jack splitter deal to connect a pair of speakers as well as the old TV.

Aside from these though... I honestly only ever touch PCI cards when I'm tinkering with old stuff. I very very rarely even see any PCI cards in people's computers that I work on since practically everything has been integrated for over 10 years.

Speaking of 10 years... that's how old my X-Fi cards are too. I still have the box for the first one I bought back in 2005. My how time flies. :)
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:52 am

I am using XFi Xtreme audio card in X87 chipset - MSI G43 Gamer mobo - 9 years and my XFI Xteme music refuse to die, plus i don't like the onboard sound. This motherboard has creative audio software but its no match against my audio card.
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:19 pm

The only soundcard laying around was a cheap Xonar DX I bought in 2007, and even that was PCIe.
 
nicho_x86
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:09 pm

Personally I think it's ridiculous when you have an MATX motherboard with 4 slots and one of them is PCI. Normally the PCIe x16 will hold a graphics card which will cover up one of the PCIe x1 slots meaning you have one PCIe x1 left for WIFI NIC, Soundcard, additional USB ports, TV card etc. I'm pretty sure no companies make devices which use PCI anymore due to the ridiculously low bandwidth which isn't even enough to support USB 3.0! Do any companies that made devices which use PCI in the past provide drivers for modern operating systems?

I know there's always going to be someone who wants a PCI slot but in that case they should make alternative boards which have them on
ie I had my eye on the Asus PRIME Q270M-C which for me is almost a perfect board as I'd rather have something stable and without overclocking features and gimmicky lights and custom switches etc. The only problem is, it only ends up having 2 slots I can use because of having a standard graphics card which takes 2 slots and a PCI slot.
 
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:04 am

nicho_x86 wrote:
Personally I think it's ridiculous when you have an MATX motherboard with 4 slots and one of them is PCI. Normally the PCIe x16 will hold a graphics card which will cover up one of the PCIe x1 slots meaning you have one PCIe x1 left for WIFI NIC, Soundcard, additional USB ports, TV card etc. I'm pretty sure no companies make devices which use PCI anymore due to the ridiculously low bandwidth which isn't even enough to support USB 3.0! Do any companies that made devices which use PCI in the past provide drivers for modern operating systems?

I know there's always going to be someone who wants a PCI slot but in that case they should make alternative boards which have them on
ie I had my eye on the Asus PRIME Q270M-C which for me is almost a perfect board as I'd rather have something stable and without overclocking features and gimmicky lights and custom switches etc. The only problem is, it only ends up having 2 slots I can use because of having a standard graphics card which takes 2 slots and a PCI slot.


First off, welcome to the forum! :) Second off, you are replying to a two year old thread- might want to check the post dates next time.

To be honest, it makes sense to me that the Q270M-C has a PCI slot, considering the target audience. It's meant to long life business installations, meaning it may well need a PCI slot in order to drive some old piece of proprietary hardware. Not to mention most businesses don't exactly need a lot of graphics horsepower, so they can either get by on the integrated graphics or use a single slot card, so the second slot is less likely to be blocked.

Frankly, I'm more surprised that it doesn't have COM ports on the back. But it does have two COM headers on the board, so I guess you could break them out to COM ports mounted in a PCI bracket if you needed them.
 
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:44 am

I know this is an old thread, but since it was resurrected I figured I'd chime in. I picked up an older model Pro Audio\Midi PCI card in a big lot of stuff on ebay a year or two ago and I can actually use that on my current system since i have a couple of PCI slots. Its an M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 card. Its neat that I can use it to connect my main system to my vintage MIDI gear (Roland SC55 and MT32) or to use it with a MIDI input device. Since I also have a Roland UM-ONE USB MIDI interface I can even do some crazy cobbled stuff, like using my tablet as a MIDI device (Tablet>UMONE USB>UMONE MIDI OUT>MAudio MIDI IN>PC) without any special software.

I don't currently use it for much, but I put it in my PC to play around with.
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Re: Who is still using PCI slots these days?

Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:40 am

Auzentech X-Meridian 7.1 2G is 32-bit PCI.

I'm going to have a real problem finding any that is both equivalent and inexpensive, so for now, PCI it is!

Edit: I'm aware of the Asus Xonar DG, my wife has one, it's good but not really comparable.

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