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EndlessWaves
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A few nuts and bolts questions

Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:09 pm

Context: I'm currently trying to decide whether to stick to my preferred MicroATX option or go for Mini-ITX. I have a few questions about how various motherboard features work these days.

1. Audio. I've never really used integrated audio and I wasn't planning to this time around as my 2008 X-fi Titanium apparently has Windows 10 support. Most people seem to agree that it's pretty good though so what do I need to look for or avoid? It'll be driving a pair of 80 ohm Audio Technica AD700.

2. M.2 Wi-fi cards. I know laptops can be tied to specific models, if I needed or wanted to replace this in future would any card work? Do I need to match the number of antennas?

3. Memory speed. With a few games showing differences in memory speed I'd be spending the few pennies more on faster memory but Intel's boards only claim support for very low speeds outside of high end Z boards. Are these hard caps or just recommended values?
 
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Re: A few nuts and bolts questions

Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:29 pm

Can only speak to (3), but Intel CPU's supported memory speeds have been lower than the faster generally available DIMMs for a long time now, faster speeds seem to work and it's only the cautious (including me!) who stick to the Intel spec for their CPU. If the motherboard says it supports higher speeds then no problem, if not I guess not. It's kinda overclocking the iMC, but if you stick to the supported JEDEC voltage you should be fine AFAICT.
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DPete27
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Re: A few nuts and bolts questions

Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:46 pm

1) I don't have a ton of expertise in this area, but yes, onboard audio has gotten quite good.  Some/many higher end solutions will even have user-swappable Op-Amps.  On the 80Ohm requirement, there's a possbility that this compatibility could be listed on the mobo's tech specs or at least some mention of high impedance speakers/headphones.  Each manufacturer has their own marketing spin on audio.  Isolated audio traces are a sign of a better than average onboard audio solution.  Realtek ALC1150 are the most current onboard audio chips, not that the older ALC892 chips aren't good.

2)  Not sure what you're getting at for "match number of antennas".

3) If you buy a H-series motherboard, you will only be able to operate a DDR4-2133 or DDR4-2400 depending on the chipset.  A Z-series board is required to operate RAM at higher speeds than the Intel posted limit.  You don't need to have a "high end" Z-series board to do this, even the lowest end models can run >DDR4-3200.
Last edited by DPete27 on Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Vhalidictes
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Re: A few nuts and bolts questions

Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:52 pm

1) Use an External Sound Card unless you're comfortable with the built-in ASIC. Most boards won't have output close to the X-Fi, but some will. Isolation is typically a bigger issue than DAC quality nowadays.

2) This isn't a thing. Well, it is, but only for custom laptop designs. In general, you're going to want to see a mini-PCIe socket and there shouldn't be compatibility issues there. You don't need to antenna match, in general. Not that you can do anything about it because most boards include that hardware if they're meant for WiFi in the first place.

3) Spend your money on density, not speed. There's no end to the upgrade problems you can face with only two slots. 2x16GB quality modules may end up being a better buy than 2x8GB high speed ones. Not to mention that low(er) profiles will also really matter for most builds, and huge RAM heatsinks are your foe.

4) Measurements! Being off a few cm won't ruin a MicroATX build, it will halt a Mini-ITX one. Make absolutely sure that the hardware will fit before you buy. PSU depth and PCIe power plug direction (Up vs Forward) on video cards are two common problems.
 
TheRazorsEdge
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Re: A few nuts and bolts questions

Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:23 pm

It sounds like Vhalidictes has some experience with mini-ITX.

His points are all spot on.

I'd add that both the PSU and GPU power connectors can be an issue depending on the make/model of each component. Look for compatibility lists or go to SFF/HTPC forums to verify fit, if at all possible. Be prepared to wait an extra week or two on a product exchange if you can't confirm ahead of time.

With mini-ITX, you basically have to choose between a discrete GPU and anything else. I would look into external audio if integrated is not good enough. The weird latency/skipping issues associated with 1st-gen USB are long gone. The GPU is the only thing that probably won't work externally, so you should try to reserve that slot if you can.
 
JustAnEngineer
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Re: A few nuts and bolts questions

Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:29 pm

EndlessWaves wrote:
1. Audio.

The best quality would be to send digital out of the PC to an external D/A device.

EndlessWaves wrote:
2. M.2 Wi-fi cards.

The one that came bolted to my mini-ITX motherboard seems to work fine for the few times that I carry it somewhere for WiFi.  It uses a standard slot, so you can swap it out if you need to.

EndlessWaves wrote:
3. Memory speed.

 You'll want a motherboard with a Z-series chipset to use better memory.  Get a pair of good 16 GiB DIMMs that don't have huge decorative heat spreaders attached.
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EndlessWaves
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Re: A few nuts and bolts questions

Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:12 pm

DPete27 wrote:
A Z-series board is required to operate RAM at higher speeds than the Intel posted limit.  You don't need to have a "high end" Z-series board to do this, even the lowest end models can run >DDR4-3200.


I've no need for any great performance. While I wouldn't be a hardware enthusiast if I didn't have something faster than the average persons computer, desktop parts are so fast I don't have any reason to go for the more expensive stuff.

I haven't picked out the components list, but chances are it'll be a G4560, RX 460 and 8GB or 16GB of memory.

I was looking at DDR4-2666 or DDR4-3000 because it was a cheap upgrade that I could feel smug about in a few years time when everyone was demanding fast memory. If it's the only reason I'm buying a motherboard more expensive than anything else in the system then it becomes something I've just thrown money at and no fun at all.

I guess I'm trying to build the best possible 'good enough' system. A money no object budget build.

Vhalidictes wrote:
4) Measurements! Being off a few cm won't ruin a MicroATX build, it will halt a Mini-ITX one.


I'd be buying the smallest possible MicroATX case if I went that route so I'll be in for those issues whatever I choose. Ideally I'm after a shrunken version of the SG10 layout with the big fans reduced in size a little to slim the width down to ~15cm (as the GD04 manages) but I haven't found it yet. The paucity of decent small MicroATX cases is one of the reasons I'm giving Mini-ITX a look.

I'm not interested in external boxes like DACs and USB sound cards, to me they defeat the point of a small form factor system. It's PCI-E or onboard. The conclusion for #1 seem to be to look for isolation.

For #2 the antenna connections seem to be built into the motherboard back-plate so I presume they're fixed for life. I wondered what impact they'd have if I wanted to switched out a AC1200 card for an AC1750 card, or buy a card that supported 60Hz 802.11ad.

I seem to be getting mixed answers to the #3 question of whether B150/B250/H170/H270 support running DDR4-2666 or DDR4-3000 at it's full speed.
 
Vhalidictes
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Re: A few nuts and bolts questions

Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:21 pm

EndlessWaves wrote:
I seem to be getting mixed answers to the #3 question of whether B150/B250/H170/H270 support running DDR4-2666 or DDR4-3000 at it's full speed.

Short answer: it doesn't.

Nuanced answer: unofficial support will very by manufacturer and board series. For example, the GIGABYTE GA-Z170N-WIFI claims to support all memory speeds, and maybe it does. Most boards won't, however.
 
MOSFET
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Re: A few nuts and bolts questions

Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:33 pm

Just to supplement the info here, which is great, I can give three real-life examples for #3, when high-speed memory support is not explicitly advertised.

Dell Latitude 5530 (I think) with mobile i5-3210m Ivy Bridge. Intel and Dell list support for up to DDR3-1600, but yet the Dell EFI/BIOS allows DDR3-1866, and CPUZ confirms 933 MHz RAM.

Intel NUC5i3SYH - mobie Broadwell i3-5010U. Intel lists support for DDR3-1600 and that's all you can get.

Supermicro SuperO MBD-C7H170-M-O with Skylake i3-6100 desktop part. Intel lists support for DDR4-2133, Supermicro is vague despite advertising the board for world-record overclocking (even after BCLK overclocking was again pulled by Intel), and the end result is you'll get DDR4-2133 and that's it, no matter what kind of modules you've installed. (FYI, I chose the board for its presumed stability, not its presumed overclockability, which does not exist anymore. Thus the H170 selection rather than Z.)
Be careful on inserting this (or any G34 chip) into the socket. Once you pull that restraining lever, it is either a good install or a piece of silicon jewelry.
 
JustAnEngineer
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Re: A few nuts and bolts questions

Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:13 am

Newegg already has 119 motherboards listed with the Z270 chipset.  Five of them are micro-ATX models worth considering.
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Productc ... D132%2D929
$104 ASRock Fatal1ty H270M Performance - lacks USB 3.1
$124 ASRock Z270M Pro4 - lacks USB 3.1
$150 ASRock Z270M Extreme 4
$154 Asus Prime Z270M-Plus- lacks USB 3.1
$204 Asus RoG Strix Gaming
I excluded the Gigabyte GA-Z270M-D3H because half of its slots are obsolete PCI, robbing you of a potentially-useful PCIe slot.  If you're going to have just two PCIe slots, you might as well go to DTX/Mini-DTX.  I suggest waiting until the Gigabyte GA-Z270MX-Gaming 5 is available.

Newegg currently has three Mini-ITX Z270 motherboards.
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Productc ... D130%2D972
If this is your form factor of choice, I suggest waiting until the Gigabyte GA-Z270N-WiFi is available.
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