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shalmon
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games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:38 am

i've noticed that there is a growing list of games that are BOLD enough to state system requirements that break the 8gb system memory barrier. 

According to the developers, It appears that

Gears of war 4
Gears of war ultimate edition
Titanfall 2
Star wars battlefront
Recore
Dying light
Battlefield 1
Deus ex mankind divided
Quantum break
Dishonored 2
Fallout 4 w/high rez pack
Mirrors edge catalyst
Forza motorsport 6 apex
Halo 5: forge
 
all require 12-16gb of system memory to perform at the ideal.  

Putting this into perspective with build budgets and system configs, it'd be interesting to know if one actually needs 16gb, and if so, how much of a difference it makes.  I tried to find information that could confirm these requirements, but results are spotty and certainly nothing from the same source. 

I realize that in recent times with the cost of memory, most progressives/enthusiasts just suggest or incorporate 16gb as a precautionary measure.  But, curiosity is knocking, and sometimes it's nice to have numbers to back things up.  I mean, people seem to compare 4gb/8gb or 3gb/6gb variants of graphics cards all the time, so...it'd just be interesting to see how system memory affects performance in games that actually say they requirement.

Unless someone can point me to a source out there that discusses this already, I'd suggest it as a potential article topic.
 
drfish
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:43 am

Basically, if a game needs over 8GB, you're going to need 16GB if we're talking about dual channel memory systems. Some games certainly need over 8GB. I can confirm that Ark does for one (just going by what it utilizes). Triple channel memory systems may be ok with 12GB though, I guess. Even if a game "just" needs 6GB, you'll be bumping up against 8GB real quick, and 16GB is just the next step to be at.
 
Voldenuit
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:45 am

shalmon wrote:
Unless someone can point me to a source out there that discusses this already, I'd suggest it as a potential article topic.

Would like to see a benchmark article with these games and varying memory capacities, to see if there is an impact, and how much.
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Glorious
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:05 am

Voldenuit wrote:
Would like to see a benchmark article with these games and varying memory capacities, to see if there is an impact, and how much.


Ultimately, either the game is paging, or it isn't.

The only thing you'd be able to see is whether or not the game detects the amount of installed memory and automatically tones down some settings to avoid a potential problem.

Which almost certainly mean that a system with less memory would end up performing better, because it was made to look worse.

If a game needs more than 8GB (which is easily feasible nowadays) either you have that physical memory or you don't. If you don't, your hard-drive light goes on and your game becomes a slide-show. It's hard to miss.
 
derFunkenstein
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:36 am

drfish wrote:
Basically, if a game needs over 8GB, you're going to need 16GB if we're talking about dual channel memory systems. Some games certainly need over 8GB. I can confirm that Ark does for one (just going by what it utilizes). Triple channel memory systems may be ok with 12GB though, I guess. Even if a game "just" needs 6GB, you'll be bumping up against 8GB real quick, and 16GB is just the next step to be at.

Agreed, and I would even go a step farther. Even if a game needs 6GB, you're going to see a bit of paging on a system with 8GB of memory.
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Glorious
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:39 am

derfunkenstein wrote:
Even if a game needs 6GB, you're going to see a bit of paging on a system with 8GB of memory.


I would imagine, yeah, especially as there is so much else out there contending for it.

I mean, if you just leave Steam open after you launch a game, it can easily take up 150-200 megs by itself, as least to my dim recollection.
 
Vhalidictes
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:17 pm

I can confirm that recent Bethesda games (the 64-bit versions) will use as much memory as they can allocate. Well, assuming that you have ~200 mods loaded like I do. Interestingly, they'll also happily run on 4GB systems, they just start running from the page file.

Weirdly, performance doesn't seem to suffer at all from the crazy paging; It just seems like loading screens take a bit longer*.
*All the tested systems were SSD-based.
 
Glorious
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:37 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
Well, assuming that you have ~200 mods loaded like I do. Interestingly, they'll also happily run on 4GB systems, they just start running from the page file.

Weirdly, performance doesn't seem to suffer at all from the crazy paging; It just seems like loading screens take a bit longer*.
*All the tested systems were SSD-based.


This is the part that complicates what I said above. There are a few games that were designed to stream stuff continuously, like RAGE, games that can load assets semi-dynamically, and, of course, virtually all games that have discrete transitions (like a loading screen or "special" corridors between areas).

So, internal buffering might mean they "use" more memory than they actually really do. It's basically a process-level file cache.

But, like you said, now that we are on 64-bit execs, they are quite happy to use virtual memory, as they now have plenty of that. You just don't notice it unless that it results in paging that affects current gameplay.

Whereas, previously on 32-bit, things crash or go bump in the night, which is why everyone was clamoring for those Bathesda 64-bit execs (Thanks! I like Skyrim SE!)

There's another complication, allocated memory isn't necessarily real memory. Not an expert/can't properly recall for windows, but overcommit is a huge issue on Linux and I definitely know there are more granular metrics available in MS land, which suggests the situation isn't wildly dissimilar.

So how real working set memory is actually being used at any given time? There are tools, I just don't have any idea.
 
MileageMayVary
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:49 pm

Glorious wrote:
There's another complication, allocated memory isn't necessarily real memory. Not an expert/can't properly recall for windows, but overcommit is a huge issue on Linux and I definitely know there are more granular metrics available in MS land, which suggests the situation isn't wildly dissimilar.

So how real working set memory is actually being used at any given time? There are tools, I just don't have any idea.

Process Explorer, a free MS download, will give you that information. I'm guessing virtual memory works in Linux similarly to Windows where the OS hand the Application a huge playground of pretend memory and then tries to manage the real memory usage as best it can.
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whm1974
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:50 pm

Memory while it is going in price at this time, is still cheap. So unless you building a budget box I wouldn't worry about it.
 
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:40 pm

drfish wrote:
Basically, if a game needs over 8GB, you're going to need 16GB if we're talking about dual channel memory systems. Some games certainly need over 8GB. I can confirm that Ark does for one (just going by what it utilizes). Triple channel memory systems may be ok with 12GB though, I guess. Even if a game "just" needs 6GB, you'll be bumping up against 8GB real quick, and 16GB is just the next step to be at.

I don't think this is a good rationalization.
I know a few people who run 12GB in dual channel 4 slots... 2x4 and 2x2. as long as the pairs matched you were fine.
there were times when 8GB was not enough and 16GB was too expensive.

Times have changed but many have not upgraded their systems since systems built 6 years ago are still good for todays games.
 
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:00 pm

So we're happy to lament game requirements for their bogus CPU or GPU comparison requirements, but we take system RAM requirements as law?
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I.S.T.
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:04 pm

With regards to FO4, I can totally see it with that friggin' ridiculous new texture pack installed taking 16 gigs of RAM.

You don't download 58 Gigabytes of textures and expect the main system RAM requirements for good performance to stay the same.
Last edited by I.S.T. on Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Vhalidictes
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:07 pm

I.S.T. wrote:
With regards to FO4, I can totally see that friggin' ridiculous new texture pack taking 16 gigs of RAM.

You don't download 58 Gigabytes of textures and expect the main system RAM requirements for good performance to stay the same.

I haven't yet seen it use more than 16GB (the main process, at least). It just seems to go directly to pagefile after that. The system I play it on has 24GB of RAM, so it could allocate more if it wanted to. Might be hardcoded?
 
drfish
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:15 pm

Arvald wrote:
I know a few people who run 12GB in dual channel 4 slots... 2x4 and 2x2. as long as the pairs matched you were fine.
there were times when 8GB was not enough and 16GB was too expensive.

Times have changed but many have not upgraded their systems since systems built 6 years ago are still good for todays games.


Sure, but I think that's a pretty niche case. Developers suggesting these requirements are probably skipping from 8GB to 16GB because of common DIMM sizes. I'd wager there are more triple-channel 12GB setups out there than dual-channel 12GB PCs. Both of those are likely dwarfed by 8GB and 16GB systems at this point.
 
derFunkenstein
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:24 pm

There are huge textures these days, and you want them in memory and going over the PCIe bus before they're actually needed. Unless you enjoy skips and stutters, that is. No reason not to have at least 16GB these days (or at least > 8GB, if you had 4 and added 8 more).
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TheRazorsEdge
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:41 pm

RAM is cheap. I got 32 GB so I don't have to worry about stuff like this until it's time to upgrade again.

And I use Chrome.
 
UberGerbil
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:28 pm

Games may make use of Memory-Mapped Files for textures and other large resources (I'd expect most do, but there are trade-offs especially if you're having to decompress things). That can consume large amounts of virtual memory on your behalf, without it necessarily showing up as in use by the program (depending on what tool you're using). That's usually a net win, as long as the program is sensible about it, but there may be situations where it can create more temporary pressure on the page file (there are always situations where almost anything can create more pressure on the page file).

TheRazorsEdge wrote:
RAM is cheap. I got 32 GB so I don't have to worry about stuff like this until it's time to upgrade again.

And I use Chrome.

I upgraded my Sandy Bridge system to 32GB when RAM prices started going up. And part of the reason I did it was because I use Chrome. There were a couple of times when I had a bunch of browser windows and tabs open and I left the system running for a couple days, and Chrome managed to consume ALL of my 24 GB of virtual memory (16RAM, 8 GB page file), cycling ads and AJAX-y pages and never, ever releasing memory. (Then I got the Great Suspender plug-in to take care of that, but not before I'd maxed out the RAM).
 
I.S.T.
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:06 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
I.S.T. wrote:
With regards to FO4, I can totally see that friggin' ridiculous new texture pack taking 16 gigs of RAM.

You don't download 58 Gigabytes of textures and expect the main system RAM requirements for good performance to stay the same.

I haven't yet seen it use more than 16GB (the main process, at least). It just seems to go directly to pagefile after that. The system I play it on has 24GB of RAM, so it could allocate more if it wanted to. Might be hardcoded?


I meant the game with the texture pack installed, not just the texture pack. I'll edit my post to clarify that.
 
Voldenuit
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:09 pm

Glorious wrote:
Voldenuit wrote:
Would like to see a benchmark article with these games and varying memory capacities, to see if there is an impact, and how much.


Ultimately, either the game is paging, or it isn't.

The only thing you'd be able to see is whether or not the game detects the amount of installed memory and automatically tones down some settings to avoid a potential problem.

Which almost certainly mean that a system with less memory would end up performing better, because it was made to look worse.

If a game needs more than 8GB (which is easily feasible nowadays) either you have that physical memory or you don't. If you don't, your hard-drive light goes on and your game becomes a slide-show. It's hard to miss.

The game executable and assets for a given level may be fine at, say 8 GB (especially if the game is smart about how it allocates memory), but pre-loading assets on a 16/32 GB system might make level loading and transitions a lot faster. On a game that continuously streams the level, this might also mean less hitching.
This may not be something that's straightforward to measure, as different games with different engines and developers may behave differently, so the "benchmarking" would have to be pretty in-depth to capture any differences.
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Krogoth
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:47 pm

None of those games needs 16GiB of system memory to run. They only consume around ~8GiB at most unless you throw in a ton of mods and stuff that may push it into 10-12GiB land.

8GiB is going to the target ceiling for game developers for a while yet until next generation of gaming consoles comes out (Not the PS4 Pro and Xbox One Scorpion).
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:10 pm

TheRazorsEdge wrote:
RAM is cheap. I got 32 GB so I don't have to worry about stuff like this until it's time to upgrade again.

And I use Chrome.

Small correction - RAM *was* cheap, up until last spring or early summer. Prices started to go up after that and now everything is at least double what it was. I also got a 32GB kit back then, now the 16GB kits are starting at that level and go higher in price.
 
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:15 pm

TravelMug wrote:
TheRazorsEdge wrote:
RAM is cheap. I got 32 GB so I don't have to worry about stuff like this until it's time to upgrade again.

And I use Chrome.

Small correction - RAM *was* cheap, up until last spring or early summer. Prices started to go up after that and now everything is at least double what it was. I also got a 32GB kit back then, now the 16GB kits are starting at that level and go higher in price.

We're at the horrible intersection of two types being still in common use (DDR3 and DDR4), alongside the normal and ongoing manufacturer shenanigans. 

Things are getting to the point that demand is getting affected, so my hope is that prices freefall sometime in late summer / early fall 2017.
 
I.S.T.
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:35 pm

Krogoth wrote:
None of those games needs 16GiB of system memory to run. They only consume around ~8GiB at most unless you throw in a ton of mods and stuff that may push it into 10-12GiB land.

8GiB is going to the target ceiling for game developers for a while yet until next generation of gaming consoles comes out (Not the PS4 Pro and Xbox One Scorpion).


You're forgetting how RAM requirements creeped up during the X360/PS3 gen for games on both. Even if the game had little enhancements, they begin to use the higher amounts of RAM to cache stuff they wouldn't be able to on console.

Besides, the PS4/Xbone only have access to 5.5 out of the 8 Gigs they got for games. The rest is for other things, like that ability to livestream or record with the push of a button.
 
daspendejo
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:14 pm

I'm gonna set 16gb ram on a z270 motherboard.  It does gets very expensive the faster you approach the 4000 plateau.  Ultimately I think I will settle in around 2666MHz. 
 
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:33 pm

daspendejo wrote:
I'm gonna set 16gb ram on a z270 motherboard.  It does gets very expensive the faster you approach the 4000 plateau.  Ultimately I think I will settle in around 2666MHz. 

Always prioritize more RAM over speed if you are nearly maxed out. The penalty of page faults is almost always (even with SSD as the page file) worse than a few MHz deficit in memory speeds (not to mention the higher latencies at higher MHz will add to the picture).
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:49 pm

You forgot Ashes of the Singularity.

RECOMMENDED:
OS: 64-bit Windows 10
Processor: Intel Core i5 or Equivalent
Memory: 16 GB RAM
Graphics: 4 GB GDDR5 NVidia GTX 970 / AMD R9 390 or better
DirectX: Version 12
Network: Broadband Internet connection
Storage: 30 GB available space
Sound Card: DirectX Compatible Sound Card
Additional Notes: 1920x1080 Display Resolution or Higher


And yes, it can really eat Ram when you have a lot of AI making thousands of units.
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TwistedKestrel
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:06 pm

shalmon wrote:
i've noticed that there is a growing list of games that are BOLD enough to state system requirements that break the 8gb system memory barrier.  [snip]

Titanfall 2
Deus ex mankind divided
Forza motorsport 6 apex

I was curious about this, I don't remember any of my games ever using more than 8GB would handle, and I can verify that all of these would have been fine. Deus Ex: MD used 5.3-5.7ish (never broke 6), Titanfall 2 hovered around the 6 mark, and FM 6:Apex was around 6.25ish. My 7950 has "only" 3GB of VRAM, so maybe playing with maximum texture sizes would have changed this somewhat, but I don't think that's the kind of use case we're worried about here.

Edit: To clarify, I was only looking at total system RAM usage under Windows 10 x64. iGPU was disabled, and maybe usage was boosted a bit by the ARX app I was using to monitor things live. Otherwise there isn't much background stuff running.

As an aside, Deus Ex was poorly multithreaded (looked like one main thread at 100% and an auxiliary thread), Apex was a little better (2 threads at 100% and auxiliary threads - kinda weird actually), and Titanfall 2 was easily the best, with a very evenly distributed load across four threads.
 
Zoomastigophora
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Re: games with 16gb system requirements...fact? or fiction?

Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:28 pm

I can't speak to the other games, but on Titanfall 2, we're recommending 16GB because it should provide enough room for higher resolutions and higher quality settings, in particular for the texture streaming budget. The recommendation is also meant to be conservative because you want to avoid hitting the pagefile pretty much ever, but you have no control over what else the user might be running the background with the game, so you're generally looking to use about 80% of whatever you're requiring/recommending to be a good citizen on the user's PC and avoid paging too often. The other thing to keep in mind is that every D3D resource needs to be kept in system RAM so if you want 3.5GB of assets in VRAM, that's 3.5GB of system RAM you need to have on hand just for creating those resources.

TwistedKestrel wrote:
and Titanfall 2 was easily the best, with a very evenly distributed load across four threads.

I'm glad to hear that, we work hard to utilize the cores as much as possible :).

Disclosure/source: I am a programmer at Respawn on the Titanfall team working mostly on engine and graphics stuff.

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