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Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:16 pm
by chuckula
First of all, you need to open a new tab and rock some of this to keep it rollin'.

Second of all, PCIe 5.0 is effectively finished and the 0.9 version of the specification was ratified by the PCIe SIG members on Thursday.

Version 0.9 means that the technological spec for PCIe 5.0 is complete and the only remaining work prior to an official 1.0 release is formalities like final clearance of intellectual property rights & whatnot. That release is expected to happen this quarter, so it'll bee soon. (More on the PCIe ratification process at wikipedia)

So before we really see any widespread release of PCIe 4.0 products, PCIe 5.0 will at least be an official standard. As a practical matter, I'd expect to start to see PCIe 5.0 products beginning next year, although it's entirely possible it will only be in high-end server systems first and gradually work its way down to the consumer space. I really don't know how long PCIe 4.0 will be the top-end for standard consumer systems, but suffice it to say I don't expect it to last 7 years like we have seen for PCIe 3.0. It's pretty neat that we are finally getting some movement on peripheral bandwidth after being stuck with PCIe 3.0 going all the way back to Sandy Bridge-E (standard Sandy Bridge was only 2.0).

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:26 am
by Ifalna
Cool, another number to charge more money for.

Are we even in a situation in which PCIe 3.0 isn't enough for typical consumer systems & workloads?
Bet PCIe 5.0 will be like 3.0 back in the day, neat number that does close to nothing in reality.

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:58 am
by Topinio
Not about consumers, it's enterprise e.g. NVMe SSDs would be bottlenecked by an HBA if it you hung 4 off one (which you'd often want to do).

Probably it helps HPC applications offloading to GPGPU/accelerator boards too.

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:58 am
by ronch
I miss the old days when 16-bit ISA was the norm and EISA was quite special.

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:34 am
by DragonDaddyBear
Ifalna wrote:
Cool, another number to charge more money for.

Are we even in a situation in which PCIe 3.0 isn't enough for typical consumer systems & workloads?
Bet PCIe 5.0 will be like 3.0 back in the day, neat number that does close to nothing in reality.

Kinda. Some CPUs are very limited to the number of lanes they have. If you only have 16 or so lanes to work with you would need to make a sacrifice to to have PCH, 10Gbps, GPU, NVMe slots, WiFi, and a GPU.

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:46 am
by jihadjoe
Yeah PCIe 4.0 and 5.0 will be great for the mainstream desktop platforms that are limited to 16 lanes.

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:27 pm
by Dposcorp
chuckula wrote:
First of all, you need to open a new tab and rock some of this to keep it rollin'.


Then go here for even better dancing

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:07 pm
by chuckula
DragonDaddyBear wrote:
Ifalna wrote:
Cool, another number to charge more money for.

Are we even in a situation in which PCIe 3.0 isn't enough for typical consumer systems & workloads?
Bet PCIe 5.0 will be like 3.0 back in the day, neat number that does close to nothing in reality.

Kinda. Some CPUs are very limited to the number of lanes they have. If you only have 16 or so lanes to work with you would need to make a sacrifice to to have PCH, 10Gbps, GPU, NVMe slots, WiFi, and a GPU.


I'd be very interested in a standard consumer CPU that implements effectively the same or slightly more bandwidth than Threadripper [60 lanes available PCIe 3.0 vs. 16 lanes of PCIe 5.0 is about the same] but only needs 16 lanes to do it, which makes it more practical for most motherboards on the market. An 8-lane PCIe 5.0 GPU with about the same bandwidth as a 16 lane PCIe 4.0 GPU (meaning about double what you get today) still leaves 8 lanes available for some ridiculously fast storage or networking equipment.

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:19 pm
by DoomGuy64
Ifalna wrote:
Are we even in a situation in which PCIe 3.0 isn't enough for typical consumer systems & workloads?

Graphics cards could use it if nothing else, on a consumer level. We wouldn't need as much video ram, but performance would still be highly driver dependent for smart caching.

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:27 pm
by just brew it!
chuckula wrote:
I'd be very interested in a standard consumer CPU that implements effectively the same or slightly more bandwidth than Threadripper [60 lanes available PCIe 3.0 vs. 16 lanes of PCIe 5.0 is about the same] but only needs 16 lanes to do it, which makes it more practical for most motherboards on the market. An 8-lane PCIe 5.0 GPU with about the same bandwidth as a 16 lane PCIe 4.0 GPU (meaning about double what you get today) still leaves 8 lanes available for some ridiculously fast storage or networking equipment.

Underlined parts are the reason it won't happen any time soon. The sort of people who typically buy "standard consumer CPUs" have no need for "ridiculously fast storage or networking equipment". Making this available on consumer platforms is a solution in search of a problem.

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:55 pm
by chuckula
just brew it! wrote:
chuckula wrote:
I'd be very interested in a standard consumer CPU that implements effectively the same or slightly more bandwidth than Threadripper [60 lanes available PCIe 3.0 vs. 16 lanes of PCIe 5.0 is about the same] but only needs 16 lanes to do it, which makes it more practical for most motherboards on the market. An 8-lane PCIe 5.0 GPU with about the same bandwidth as a 16 lane PCIe 4.0 GPU (meaning about double what you get today) still leaves 8 lanes available for some ridiculously fast storage or networking equipment.

Underlined parts are the reason it won't happen any time soon. The sort of people who typically buy "standard consumer CPUs" have no need for "ridiculously fast storage or networking equipment". Making this available on consumer platforms is a solution in search of a problem.


I'd just point out that the same silicon that drives the 9900K is used in Intel's Xeon-E series and I'd expect that trend to continue in the future. While the consumer desktop does not necessarily need crazy I/O right now, the server market sure does, so I wouldn't be surprised to see PCIe 5.0 sooner rather than later. Maybe not in Ice Lake but Tiger Lake could certainly implement it.

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:58 pm
by just brew it!
chuckula wrote:
I'd just point out that the same silicon that drives the 9900K is used in Intel's Xeon-E series and I'd expect that trend to continue in the future. While the consumer desktop does not necessarily need crazy I/O right now, the server market sure does, so I wouldn't be surprised to see PCIe 5.0 sooner rather than later. Maybe not in Ice Lake but Tiger Lake could certainly implement it.

If they do something like that, it's a near-certainty that they'll artificially disable the PCIe 5.0 on the consumer platform.

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:18 pm
by Waco
chuckula wrote:
As a practical matter, I'd expect to start to see PCIe 5.0 products beginning next year, although it's entirely possible it will only be in high-end server systems first and gradually work its way down to the consumer space.

I think you're being wildly optimistic. :)

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:41 pm
by Chrispy_
PCIe 2.0 is still good enough for me at home. Or maybe I'm on 3.0, I can neither remember nor care what PCIe version Z77 has.

Even PCI 1.0 (simulated as PCIe 3.0 x4 on modern hardware) will permit 94% of a a 2080Ti's peak performance, assuming anyone is dumb enough to spend so much on a graphics card for a 12+ year old system.

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:23 pm
by chuckula
Waco wrote:
chuckula wrote:
As a practical matter, I'd expect to start to see PCIe 5.0 products beginning next year, although it's entirely possible it will only be in high-end server systems first and gradually work its way down to the consumer space.

I think you're being wildly optimistic. :)


I don't necessarily think so. PCIe 4.0 was officially announced on June 8, 2017 and while it's taking a while to filter down to consumer-grade systems simply because of the standard upgrade cycle, in less than 2 years we have seen various products including 200Gbit ethernet adapters, solid state drives, and GPUs employ PCIe 4.0 already, including products that were out last year. That's not to say it's "widespread" but I'd expect there to be PCIe 5.0 products available in 2020 for the high-end following pretty much the same timeframe we have already observed for 4.0. If the rumors are to be believed, PCIe 4.0 did most of the heavy lifting and PCIe 5.0 takes advantage of the groundwork laid in the older spec, so the technical jump from PCIe 4.0 --> 5.0 is supposed to be quite a bit less than from 3.0 to 4.0.

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:20 pm
by DragonDaddyBear
With 200Gbps links they need to feed something. If not 2020 then we will see faster networking in consumer devices shortly after. Even wireless is approachingmulti-gigabit these days and that's before AX.

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:33 pm
by Usacomp2k3
i don’t see anything above 10gb being useful for the consumer. Even that is very burst needs. There isn’t any creation or consumption that needs that sustained that I can think of.

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:59 pm
by Ifalna
Chrispy_ wrote:
PCIe 2.0 is still good enough for me at home. Or maybe I'm on 3.0, I can neither remember nor care what PCIe version Z77 has.

Should be 3.0, it's the same chipset I use (Ivy Bridge era).

chuckula wrote:
I'd be very interested in a standard consumer CPU that implements effectively the same or slightly more bandwidth than Threadripper [60 lanes available PCIe 3.0 vs. 16 lanes of PCIe 5.0 is about the same] but only needs 16 lanes to do it, which makes it more practical for most motherboards on the market. An 8-lane PCIe 5.0 GPU with about the same bandwidth as a 16 lane PCIe 4.0 GPU (meaning about double what you get today) still leaves 8 lanes available for some ridiculously fast storage or networking equipment.

Dumb question: can multiple devices use the same lane at the same time? I always thought that wouldn't be the case.

So 16 lanes of 5.0 would still be 16 lanes, even if the per lane throughput would be x4.
NVMe storage is pretty useless in most consumer situations though, so I wouldn't fuss about it.

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:13 pm
by Mr Bill
ronch wrote:
I miss the old days when 16-bit ISA was the norm and EISA was quite special.
and the VESA local bus before AGP came out. :D

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:23 pm
by Aranarth
ronch wrote:
I miss the old days when 16-bit ISA was the norm and EISA was quite special.


I had a couple machines with VLB...

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:48 am
by ronch
Aranarth wrote:
ronch wrote:
I miss the old days when 16-bit ISA was the norm and EISA was quite special.


I had a couple machines with VLB...


Yeah, VLB was pretty cool back then as well. Too bad it was directly tied to the i486 bus so we're limited to 3 slots, and future CPUs probably made it hard to continue the VLB standard. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:24 am
by K-L-Waster
Aranarth wrote:
ronch wrote:
I miss the old days when 16-bit ISA was the norm and EISA was quite special.


I had a couple machines with VLB...


Micro-channel for the win IBM vendor lockin!

(Yeah, my Dad worked for IBM so we had a PS/2...)

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:38 am
by just brew it!
Pffft... S-100 all the way!

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:41 am
by Captain Ned
K-L-Waster wrote:
Micro-channel for the win IBM vendor lockin!

As in Workin' for the MCA?

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:35 am
by freebird
just brew it! wrote:
chuckula wrote:
I'd be very interested in a standard consumer CPU that implements effectively the same or slightly more bandwidth than Threadripper [60 lanes available PCIe 3.0 vs. 16 lanes of PCIe 5.0 is about the same] but only needs 16 lanes to do it, which makes it more practical for most motherboards on the market. An 8-lane PCIe 5.0 GPU with about the same bandwidth as a 16 lane PCIe 4.0 GPU (meaning about double what you get today) still leaves 8 lanes available for some ridiculously fast storage or networking equipment.

Underlined parts are the reason it won't happen any time soon. The sort of people who typically buy "standard consumer CPUs" have no need for "ridiculously fast storage or networking equipment". Making this available on consumer platforms is a solution in search of a problem.


Yeah, not today, but like my college professor told me, "You'll never need the power of a 80386, on the desktop" (being a stupid PC builder, I disagreed)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7rhMqTQ4WI

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:23 am
by Norphy
Mr Bill wrote:
ronch wrote:
I miss the old days when 16-bit ISA was the norm and EISA was quite special.
and the VESA local bus before AGP came out. :D


VLB predates PCI, let alone AGP.

Re: Rollin' in my [PCIe] 5.0

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:51 pm
by roncat
Ah, VME bus computers with that blazing 40Mb/sec speed...