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Re: New Ryzen 3 2200G build - random freezes/pauses

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:29 pm
by Urshurak776
just brew it! wrote:
At least some of the current WD Blue drives do that as well. Need to extend the timeout setting in the drive firmware to get them to behave sanely.

They're still better than Seagate's SMR garbage if you're looking for inexpensive bulk storage.


How do you do this?

Re: New Ryzen 3 2200G build - random freezes/pauses

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:34 pm
by Urshurak776
Okay, not sure if this means anything, but before memtest, I saw that my from USB 3 case headers weren’t working. I plugged the cable in backwards. Flipped it around and it’s working. Could that have caused any of this issue?

Update: Memtest86 passed. Went through it a couple of times.

I changed sleep states for the system (changed to never.) Monitor will turn off though.

I uninstalled all AMD drivers and redownloaded and installed. Chipset---Reboot----Adrenaline----Reboot.

Checked pagefile. It is on SSD, not the WD BLUE 7200RPM drive.

Tuned off indexing for WD Blue drive also.

I'm going to play around with system (burn in maybe.)

I'll report back.

Re: New Ryzen 3 2200G build - random freezes/pauses

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:03 pm
by anotherengineer
Hey, not sure if other have mentioned, my apologies if so.

Win10 can be aggressive with turning off the hard drive.
you could try adjusting that

Control Panel - power options - AMD balanced - change plan settings - changed advanced power settings - hard disk, turn off after whatever you want, could set to never, good idea with SSD so system can run garbage collection

Also did you upgrade from a previous windows, or was it a fresh install on a new drive? Win 10 version? You can get the latest W10 here https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/softwar ... /windows10

One more tool that might be worth a shot, is latency monitor, it might be able to see if there is certain software causing lag, maybe.

https://www.resplendence.com/latencymon

Good Luck

Re: New Ryzen 3 2200G build - random freezes/pauses

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:38 pm
by Urshurak776
Update: just froze again while he was playing need for speed. Went nearly 40 minutes with no problem. Then froze, unfroze, then froze again. About 10 seconds later it informs and worked fine. This is really weird.

I’ll keep going down the list of suggestions.

I had done a fresh load of Win 10. It was a new SSD drive. The WD Blue drive is a couple of years old. All the games are on there. The WD Blue was the primary drive in the last system. I formatted it and used it in this one as a data drive.

Next I’ll try unplugging the WD Blue and see what happens.

Re: New Ryzen 3 2200G build - random freezes/pauses

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:46 pm
by just brew it!
toki wrote:
If you're using a WD Red drive or "green" type drive, someone posted this how-to that may help you and save the life of your hard drive.

As I noted above, some of the Blue drives are affected as well (recent Blue drives with 5400 spindle speed are effectively re-branded Greens). Consensus seems to be that if you have a 5400 RPM Blue, it has the head park timer issue. I can vouch for this, as I have seen it happen with 4TB Blue drives I own.

The source of the problem is Western Digital's attempt to make the device "more green" - use less electricity. One way to accomplish this goal is to park the heads on a plastic pad after eight seconds of no read/write requests instead of allowing them to float over the spinning platters of the hard drive. This adds up to 10,800 cycles each day.

You'd have to be pretty unlucky to get that many cycles though. You'd need to have something in your system that accesses the drive every 8.01 seconds like clockwork. If you're accessing it more frequently than that, the heads stay loaded; if you're accessing it less frequently, they stay parked between accesses.

If you do the math, data corruption will begin within 23.148 to 115.741 days if you are employing the hard drive on a heavily used server.

As noted above, on a heavily used server the heads will stay loaded and the load/unload problem does not occur. It also isn't a hard-and-fast rule... exceeding the maximum number of cycles doesn't guarantee that corruption will occur. It just increases your risk of a failure.

That said, Linux seems to be a particularly problematic case. Something in the Linux file system logic apparently "touches" the disks about once a minute even if there is no user data access, resulting in hundreds of cycles per day even on an idle system.

Regular consumers will not notice read/write problems until later. Some WD drives reported 3,000 to 5,000 cycles per day. At this rate, the first instances of data corruption will begin within 83.33 to 250 days.

The last Blue I had where I forgot to disable the timer racked up way more than the rated number of cycles and still works just fine. It's luck of the draw. Saying "data corruption will begin within 83.33 to 250 days" is misleading; a more accurate statement would be "if you happen to have one of these worst-case workloads, your risk of premature drive failure may go up".

From my experience, early data loss will not be noticed by the average user. There are no signs of trouble if work files are not accessed, edited, and save. With numerous usages, lost sectors on the hard drive appear and indexes become corrupted. Then, damages become apparent. During bootup, Windows OS will begin employing Check Disk (chkdsk/f) to repair errors. Chunks of bad information get deleted and corrupted indexes are re-corrected during the process. Eventually, 50%-to-60% drive gets wiped out before the user realizes the problem. He accesses a file, and there is none. Using a file manager, further examinations reveal other missing data. This degradation takes time - months to a year depending on computer usage.

You're referring to bad/remapped sectors, caused by damage to the platter itself. Excessive head load/unload damages the heads, which will cause problems on newly written data as well. Two different failure mechanisms.

Nevertheless, six years of complains have forced the manufacturer to do something - provided a firmware fix. WDIDLE3.EXE software is used to reset the parking cycle to as high as five minutes.

The firmware supports values much higher than 5 minutes. The maximum possible value is in fact a bit more than 2 hours. I suppose it is possible that specific versions of WDIDLE3 may have artificially capped it at shorter values.

For normal users, this change brings down the parking cycle to 133 per day. This is within the industrial average. Most drives experience 10 to 200 per day and are rated around 600,000. WDIDLE3.EXE can also turn off head parking. Unfortunately, this is not recommended. Users have reported that drive speed was reduced to a crawl or exhibited read/write problems.

This is a symptom of other problems with the drive, not a disabled head park timer.

This solution is a masterpiece in public relations. Instead of deactivating or eliminating the eight second head parking cycle on newly manufactured drives, WD forces the user to make the firmware change after the sale. The process is not easy, and the company's website does not explain or provide any information - it provides just the software. The procedure requires unplugging all other devices that are connected to SATA ports and numerous resets to the BIOS. The computer must boot in DOS via a CD or USB 2.0 thumb drive and typing the required codes. Just finding the necessary software to create the booting device is a pain.

While I agree doing this on a Windows box is a bit of a PITA, it's not that bad.

For Linux users, many distros provide a Linux version of the tool (typically called "idle3ctl") which can be installed directly from the distro's software repository. While it does require use of the CLI, it does not require any rebooting or use of removable media.

As a result, non-technical consumers will not do anything and allow their hard drives to malfunction. For the "techkies," it will take hours of research, internet searches, and trial-and-error. Hopefully, they will also be discouraged. In one stroke, the company has placated the critics and still maintain high sales volume.

Most non-technical consumers will not be affected, because they're not running Linux or some other workload that periodically touches the drive at a rate which will cause issues.

That said, it is still a good idea to increase the timer to 5 minutes (or more), unless you are REALLY prioritizing power usage above all else (in which case you should probably just shut the system off when you're not using it instead).

Re: New Ryzen 3 2200G build - random freezes/pauses

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:59 pm
by Urshurak776
My drive is a WD Blue 7200 RPM. It worked fine in the last system. I’m going to just unplug it and see what happens.

Re: New Ryzen 3 2200G build - random freezes/pauses

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:04 pm
by just brew it!
Urshurak776 wrote:
My drive is a WD Blue 7200 RPM. It worked fine in the last system. I’m going to just unplug it and see what happens.

I don't think the 7200 RPM models have the head park timer issue.

Re: New Ryzen 3 2200G build - random freezes/pauses

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:31 pm
by synthtel2
This sounds like something ETW might be able to help diagnose, or at least narrow down.

Re: New Ryzen 3 2200G build - random freezes/pauses

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:51 pm
by Urshurak776
All,

I want to thank you for everything. You guys are amazing! So, a friend of mine used to own a computer store years ago. I felt bad calling him because we have kind of lost touch. My wife kept telling me to call, so I did. We talked a while and he said he could come over. So, he walks in the door with an Asus Prime B450 board. He said he has seen a lot of ASRock boards with power delivery issues. We swapped boards (my wife got chicken wings and pizza and beer!) and had it up and running. Loaded drivers (I will do a clean install this weekend.). Runs great. Freezing issues are gone. My son has been gaming on it for a little over an hour. So, looks like it was power delivery maybe. Not 100% sure but the Asus board seems to be working fine. Now I owe him a new board.

Thanks again everyone. You guys really are great for lending a hand.

Re: New Ryzen 3 2200G build - random freezes/pauses

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:12 am
by Urshurak776
So....it is still doing it........:( so not the Motherboard....

I went through suggestions above that you all sent me. First, I disconnected the data drive (WD Blue.) Still have the same issues. I looked at event logs and see a few entries that say something like "wrote to ***.log and it was successful, but took an abnormally long time to complete. Suspect hardware failure. Contact your manufacturer." I can't remember the exact wording, but it was something like that. So maybe this is the SSD all along? If it's taking an abnormally long time to write something, that may be it? It's brand new......but it was an RMA that was sent to me from Mushkin from the first drive that failed (different Mushkin SSD that they don't make anymore, so they sent me the Reactor.) Maybe it was re manufactured? It was in a retail package.

I just ordered a Crucial M.2 drive (500GB.) I'm removing both the Mushkin SSD and the WD BLUE. Going to do a fresh load of Windows 10 Pro onto the SSD and see what happens. The ASUS BIOS has a power supply throttling feature. I put it to "typical" and it is much better, but still does it.


If it still does it with the new M.2 SSD, the only thing left that is not brand new is the Corsair CX600 power supply. It is a "Haswell" ready power supply, and has worked in the last system (a Haswell) fine, so I don't think this is the problem, but who knows. I'll keep you all posted. Seems I spoke too soon in my excitement above....

Re: New Ryzen 3 2200G build - random freezes/pauses

Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:09 am
by Urshurak776
UPDATE:

So, the new M.2 drive arrived. I took out the Mushkin Reactor SSD and unplugged the WD Blue drive. Cleared all BIOS settings and installed the M.2 drive. Loaded Windows 10 Pro. Loaded drivers in the order we discussed previously. While I was at it I installed another fan (there were no overheating issues and both side panels were off anyway during all of this.) As of 2PM Saturday, I did some burn in testing, benchmarking, ran Prime 95 overnight, etc. Then my son loaded up some games and played several games Sunday. Last night he played APex legends for about 2-1/2 hours. So far, everything smooth. Prior to loading games, we plugged the WD Blue back in. The only thing I have changed in BIOS (Besides enabling XMP for memory) is setting power supply throttling to "typical."

Looks like a troubled SSD. Very strange and I have never seen one act like this. I'll post an update if anything has changed. Though it doesn't appear anyone is following any longer. Hopefully this thread will help someone later on.

Re: New Ryzen 3 2200G build - random freezes/pauses

Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:20 am
by Chrispy_
I have a WD Green 240GB M.2 SATA SSD sitting in my drawer that refuses to work properly with some motherboards.

I don't know what WD have done but it's impressively awful that they've somehow managed to screw up compatibility on a SATA device. That's been a standard for almost a decade now, and a common one for at least the last 3-4 years.

At any rate, my only SATA purchases now seem to be MX500 - they're better and cheaper than pretty much anything else on sale in Europe right now.

Re: New Ryzen 3 2200G build - random freezes/pauses

Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:29 am
by dragontamer5788
Urshurak776 wrote:
UPDATE:

So, the new M.2 drive arrived. I took out the Mushkin Reactor SSD and unplugged the WD Blue drive. Cleared all BIOS settings and installed the M.2 drive. Loaded Windows 10 Pro. Loaded drivers in the order we discussed previously. While I was at it I installed another fan (there were no overheating issues and both side panels were off anyway during all of this.) As of 2PM Saturday, I did some burn in testing, benchmarking, ran Prime 95 overnight, etc. Then my son loaded up some games and played several games Sunday. Last night he played APex legends for about 2-1/2 hours. So far, everything smooth. Prior to loading games, we plugged the WD Blue back in. The only thing I have changed in BIOS (Besides enabling XMP for memory) is setting power supply throttling to "typical."

Looks like a troubled SSD. Very strange and I have never seen one act like this. I'll post an update if anything has changed. Though it doesn't appear anyone is following any longer. Hopefully this thread will help someone later on.


Well, a troubled SSD may have similar issues to the "Green" drive I discussed before. When reads / writes fail on an SSD, the drive reallocates and sends the reads/writes to another sector. If the drive is overall failing, it could be that these reallocations or whatever just take a lot longer than usual.

I'm just spitballing here, but it certainly seems possible that its the old SSD.

Re: New Ryzen 3 2200G build - random freezes/pauses

Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:24 pm
by Urshurak776
Thanks Dragontamer. I had a Mushkin drive that failed after 8 months, I got an RMA and sent it back. They sent me this Mushkin Reactor SSD (its not the same drive, they sent me a different model as they don't make the old drive anymore.) Never used it until now. It was in a retail package, but maybe it was a refurbished item, not sure. Not under warranty, so probably going to chuck it. I certainly don't trust it. Ironically, I bought a Silicon Power SSD to replace the first one as I needed the computer up and running. That one failed also. In fact, I just sent it back today (got the RMA on Friday.) Are SSD's supposed to fail like this? That is three failures in about a year. Maybe those brands aren't reliable. Mushkin RAM was good at one time. Well, hopefully the Crucial M.2 500GB will last a long time.

Re: New Ryzen 3 2200G build - random freezes/pauses

Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:37 pm
by mikewinddale
I'm glad the problem appears to be fixed, and I hope it stays that way!

I'm curious if you'd be willing to try something to indulge my curiosity. Now that you know the Mushkin drive was bad, I'd like to see the results of benchmarks and diagnostics. I don't have any bad drives in my possession, so I can't test what the results for a bad drive look like.

But my hypothesis is that benchmarks - especially random read/write benchmarks - should show very bad results, because the OS was hanging while it was waiting for the drive. Not only should MB/s be subpar, but the latency in ms should be especially bad. Perhaps the latency would even be several seconds.

So if you're able to, I'd be very interested in seeing disk benchmarks (especially Anvil, AS-SSD, and CrystalDiskMark). I'd like to know if the problem you were having with this system would have shown up under disk benchmarks, so that in the future, if I or someone else has your problem, I know whether to suggest disk benchmarks as a diagnostic method.

Re: New Ryzen 3 2200G build - random freezes/pauses

Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:17 pm
by Urshurak776
mikewinddale wrote:
I'm glad the problem appears to be fixed, and I hope it stays that way!

I'm curious if you'd be willing to try something to indulge my curiosity. Now that you know the Mushkin drive was bad, I'd like to see the results of benchmarks and diagnostics. I don't have any bad drives in my possession, so I can't test what the results for a bad drive look like.

But my hypothesis is that benchmarks - especially random read/write benchmarks - should show very bad results, because the OS was hanging while it was waiting for the drive. Not only should MB/s be subpar, but the latency in ms should be especially bad. Perhaps the latency would even be several seconds.

So if you're able to, I'd be very interested in seeing disk benchmarks (especially Anvil, AS-SSD, and CrystalDiskMark). I'd like to know if the problem you were having with this system would have shown up under disk benchmarks, so that in the future, if I or someone else has your problem, I know whether to suggest disk benchmarks as a diagnostic method.


Mike, I would be more than happy to send it to you (my cost.) Or, I am putting together a system later this year and can do it then. Right now I don't want to mess with the system. For now anyway.

Re: New Ryzen 3 2200G build - random freezes/pauses

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:56 am
by Urshurak776
Update: 11 days later and still running great. No issues at all. This Ryzen 3 2200G is a fantastic little chip.

For fun, I contacted Mushkin about the issue. I spoke to an engineer about the issue. He suspects a faulty controller in the SSD. He gave me an RMA (even though it is not under warranty) and said he would ship me a newer model, then asked if I wanted an M.2. I said sure. So, pretty cool.