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CScottG
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:18 pm

Ifalna wrote:
I will try watching out for special offers, but in my experience, ours aren't even anywhere near as interesting as the offers you Americans get. 

When I put that link in the pricing was around 270 euros, but now it's showing a far more correct 650..  Oh well.

-actually, most deals are pretty similar (when factoring in added expenses from your gov't.) - but we do generally have a much larger selection (because we are a much larger market), though we don't always have as interesting a group of products.

US 27"-up higher res.:
https://pcpartpicker.com/products/monit ... =a8&page=1
DE 27"-up higher res.:
https://de.pcpartpicker.com/products/mo ... ,256001440
 
Ifalna
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:30 am

Hm. So bottom line of what I have learned so far:
4K is out b/c it's not useful @ 27-30" screens and software scaling is more trouble than it's worth.
Freesync is worthless to me because it doesn't work with windowed gaming. (I play mainly in windowed because it's so much more comfortable to switch in and out, esp in games like WoW or FF-XIV)
GSync works with windows but is ridiculously expensive and on top of that, there seem to be only 4-5 monitors available at all in the 27" / 1440p range, most of them some rather ugly (dat red Acer Predator) "gaming" devices. While certainly nice, I'm not sure a 200€+ tax is justified because if I am honest: I'm not the hardcore gamer anymore that I used to be.
IPS may have a glow effect that could bother me in dim/dark rooms esp during dark scenes. (no way to be sure but to order one and actually try it out)

On top of that, there seem to be serious issues in terms of QC in Asus/Acers/Dell camp. Lots of bad experiences scattered over the Internet.
So what remains would be: IPS vs VA (really want to get rid of TN color shift) and 120+Hz vs 60Hz.
If I look at IPS & 120Hz+, there only seem to be a handful of monitors out there either and guess what: they seem to be the expensive g-sync ones. :D

Just for kicks though: I took a pic with my trusty Canon SX130 IS of my current monitor (BenQ G2222HDL) with an all black image. Granted it's not night-time right now but I can get my room pretty dark.
I used the following settings: 2.5s exposure, ISO 200, F4.5 (I think aperture width or sth?) and manual focus of 50cm.
Image
Even with these moderate settings, my cam perceives that as far more critical than my actual eyes.

As for the colors:
I used the following settings: 0.3s exposure, ISO 80, F6.3 (I think aperture width or sth?) and manual focus of 50cm. (Impossible to recreate exactly, this was as close as I could get)
Image
"Original image":
Image
For the record: my monitor runs in the "eco" setting @30% brightness b/c my eyes are quite sensitive to light. 
What do you think?
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CScottG
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:31 pm

Ifalna wrote:
4K is out b/c it's not useful @ 27-30" screens and software scaling is more trouble than it's worth.

GSync works with windows but is ridiculously expensive and on top of that, there seem to be only 4-5 monitors available at all in the 27" / 1440p range, most of them some rather ugly (dat red Acer Predator) "gaming" devices. While certainly nice, I'm not sure a 200€+ tax is justified because if I am honest: I'm not the hardcore gamer anymore that I used to be.

IPS may have a glow effect that could bother me in dim/dark rooms esp during dark scenes. (no way to be sure but to order one and actually try it out)

On top of that, there seem to be serious issues in terms of QC in Asus/Acers/Dell camp. Lots of bad experiences scattered over the Internet.

What do you think?

4K is useful with a 27-28" monitor - it's more desktop space, but that also depends on your eyesight (corrected or not). 4k is however (regardless of screen size) far more punishing with games as far as fps goes, but that's often a factor of in-game settings. Scaling to 4k with *video* can also be good (though not nearly as good as native 4k).

You can find GSync monitors with TN panels that aren't terribly expensive in the 27-28" range, but color "vibrancy" typically suffers as a result. 

https://www.amazon.de/Acer-XB280HKbprz-Displayport-Reaktionszeit-H%C3%B6henverstellbar/dp/B00MB5O5OY

..and note that it is better pricing than in the US.

-reviewed by LTT (..note the comments made about 5:35 into the video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAfrQ6UAEmU

As for quality control - it's a total crap-shoot, just make sure you can return the product within a reasonable time.
 
Ifalna
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Sat Oct 15, 2016 3:48 pm

CScottG wrote:
4K is useful with a 27-28" monitor - it's more desktop space,
You can find GSync monitors with TN panels that aren't terribly expensive in the 27-28" range, but color "vibrancy" typically suffers as a result. 

Not really. In order to get down to a reasonable ppi and up to a clearly readable font size I would have to run Windows at 150%+ scaling factor. As such I'd not gain all that much space over using 1440p @ 100%. Add to that all them older programs that don't scale properly and you are bound to run into trouble. And lets not forget that I would need rather absurd GFX horsepower, because I play in windows and thus cannot easily set another resolution for my game. No, I'm not willing to spend 850€ on a 1080. A 450€ 1070 is already way too expensive for my tastes.

I thought about going TN+GSync too, i'm just not sure whether it makes any lick of sense to replace one perfectly working TN panel with another and spend 600€ in the process. How much difference would I notice compared to my current 60Hz 1080p 21.5" display?
Dell-S2716DG

In the IPS high refresh rate camp, this one is basically the most reasonably priced one (no 200€ GSync tax):
Asus-MG279Q

To be perfectly honest: neither option really makes me want to jump out of my seat and order it, and makes me question whether this is even the right point in time to buy a display.
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CScottG
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Sat Oct 15, 2016 5:16 pm

Try using reading glasses for small text (..it's what I do). Also, consider moving the screen closer to you.

..most find that 125% is sufficient (..for a 27-28" panel).
 
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Sat Oct 15, 2016 5:20 pm

Good thing I won't be in the market for a display anytime soon. Due to the amount I spend on my Dell 30" 3014 back in 2013, it will be another seven years before I upgrade my monitor.
 
 
Ifalna
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:37 pm

CScottG wrote:
Try using reading glasses for small text (..it's what I do). Also, consider moving the screen closer to you.

I have -5dpt (short sighted). 
If I take off my glasses, I'd have to go to around 20cm of my current display in order to be able to read the text i am currently typing. With glasses it's not a problem from my normal sitting position ~50cm but it does get straining if I lean back in my seat, so I really don't want the text to become much smaller. :D
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CScottG
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:55 pm

My last suggestion, and my favorite of the group:

https://www.mars-media-elektronik.de/de ... r=Geizhals

Other than the latest OLED's, it has a about the lowest latency for a TV you can currently get (..including Phillips large monitors) when used from the Game mode setting 4k.

It's also become a "darling" monitor of Digital Foundry's 4k tests - ex. 5:50 in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIWXUirwQpQ
 
Ifalna
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:37 am

Very lovely display. Would probably be a lot of fun to watch BD movies on it.

My friend and I did try gaming on a 40" TV screen (Sony Bravia) because we were curious as to how it felt. It was awesome at first but it got tiring quickly, because in order to see everything you HAVE to move your head. Esp me, since I have to keep what I look at inside my corrective lenses' range.

I thank you all for your time and for your recommendations. 
As it stands now, I'll probably wait for the high refresh - IPS tech to mature a bit, so there are more panel options to choose from.

Either that or until my current display starts acting up and makes me feel better about dropping lots of cash on a new screen.
I'll bookmark this Fred for future reference.
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CScottG
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:24 pm

Ifalna wrote:

It was awesome at first but it got tiring quickly, because in order to see everything you HAVE to move your head. Esp me, since I have to keep what I look at inside my corrective lenses' range.

That's IMMERSION! (lol - ok, maybe not for desktop use, though you could just move away from the screen until it fits your field of view (..and that's presuming you need to see everything at once, which unless you are doing something like trading stocks or currency is rare). You have however mentioned windowed game-play, so you could easily adjust window-size to compensate without having to move away from the screen.)

I'm honestly thinking of going that route (IMMERSION) fully once the VR headsets have matured (and I don't mind the head-turning and could probably stand a bit more neck exercise).
http://store.steampowered.com/app/382110/
 
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:41 pm

I hadn't seen VR in a useful scenario like that before. Wow. I would be really interested to see how it would work for work activities. Imagine having a dozen applications open all at the same time. *drool*
 
Ifalna
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:55 pm

CScottG wrote:
That's IMMERSION! (lol - ok, maybe not for desktop use, though you could just move away from the screen until it fits your field of view (..and that's presuming you need to see everything at once, which unless you are doing something like trading stocks or currency is rare). You have however mentioned windowed game-play, so you could easily adjust window-size to compensate without having to move away from the screen.)

I'm honestly thinking of going that route (IMMERSION) fully once the VR headsets have matured (and I don't mind the head-turning and could probably stand a bit more neck exercise).
http://store.steampowered.com/app/382110/

Well If I had the room space I'D consider unsing such a display. But living in a tiny 1 room apartment does have it's drawbacks. I simply wouldn't know where to put a 40"+ monster. :D
Yeah VR 360° Display would be awesome. In general I really like the Idea of putting on a helmet and having the while FoV filled instead of planting larger and larger panels into your living space. Alas the tech is still way too immature to be a serious contender. Maybe in 10 years.
Anyhow, in a heat of the moment I ordered A 1070 Strix OC for 477€ today. Insanely expensive, I know but it was reduced from 520ish and I really don't want to wait any longer. Should be nice FPS on my trusty old 1080p display. *chuckles*
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Voldenuit
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:03 pm

Ifalna wrote:
I thought about going TN+GSync too, i'm just not sure whether it makes any lick of sense to replace one perfectly working TN panel with another and spend 600€ in the process. How much difference would I notice compared to my current 60Hz 1080p 21.5" display?
Dell-S2716DG

The Dell is a very good TN monitor; it's an 8-bit panel with 10-bit FRC. I have the Asus PG278Q with a very similar panel, and the color reproduction, banding, contrast is nearly as good as the acer 27" 1440p AHVA panel I'm using as a secondary. There is a bit of gamma shift with vertical head movement, but it's very tolerable, and this coming from someone who has exclusively bought *VA and IPS monitors for the past 10 years because of TN limitations. It's a world of difference to cheap TN panels.
Having said that, ouch, 600 euros is a lot of money and more than I'd care to spend on the dell. Does dell have regular deep discounts on their products in the EU? My advice is to narrow down a list of acceptable candidates, and then to wait until one of them goes on sale, whether you end up buying a VRR, TN, IPS, MVA etc.
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Ifalna
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:48 am

Voldenuit wrote:
Having said that, ouch, 600 euros is a lot of money and more than I'd care to spend on the dell. Does dell have regular deep discounts on their products in the EU? My advice is to narrow down a list of acceptable candidates, and then to wait until one of them goes on sale, whether you end up buying a VRR, TN, IPS, MVA etc.

Mmh not sure how to interpret the spikes, but the price does seem to fluctuate quite a bit.
Price history Dell TN monitor
I could see me buying it for 450€ or less. But not at it's current 570+ pricepoint.
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integer
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:59 pm

Thanks for this thread. Am kind of in the same situation as well. I have a 24" IPS monitor (HPLP2475w), and am considering a larger screen. The Dell 30" looks perfect (assuming my desk can hold it), however am not sure if I can justify an investment of $1000+.

Well, another thread to monitor to see what other suggestions come up here.
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CScottG
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:58 pm

integer wrote:
 ..(assuming my desk can hold it)..

Always consider wall-mounting!
..and with that in mind:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6889356097

Here is a monitor price list (US):
https://pcpartpicker.com/products/monit ... =a8&page=1
 
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:24 am

I am glad this post exists. In a few weeks I too will be Monitor shopping. I've been looking over some of the recommendations and they've all but confused me too. There's a few items on my wish list I want:

27"
AT LEAST 2560x1440
possibly G-sync (I'm on the fence about this)
VESA mount (this is optional)

the biggest confusion is IPS vs TN, and is 4K worth it?

Currently I have a 1080 with a i7 6700k.
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Ifalna
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:39 am

4K depends on how you game.

IIRC, LCDs look very blurry when driven below their native resolution. If you want to game with all the niceties turned to max, a single 1080 is still not enough to properly drive 4K. 
On top of that you get the weird scaling issues, esp if you happen to use older software for work etc.

G-Sync: Only depends on whether you want to fork over 150-200€ NVidia tax. (Imho, it's pretty ridiculous and unjustified, even if G-Sync may be nice)

As for IPS vs TN vs VA: that one tortures me as well. There is no other solution than to buy and compare them / send the ones you don't like back b/c even if you view them in a shop, you won't have lighting conditions similar to your home. (e.g.: IPS glow only gets annoying in darker environments when viewing dark content)
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tanker27
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:49 am

so 4K, for now, is a no-go.

The G-sync tax doesnt scare me off. The only worry is that they abandon it and adopt freesync. (could happen you never know)

So yeah TN vs IPS. My office/game room is relatively dark, the monitor would be back lit by a TV and low wattage light.
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:42 am

I am currently looking at the 32" Pavilion 2k.  As a wow player and media consumer seems to be the perfect price/performance point at $350 US.
 
Ifalna
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:16 am

tanker27 wrote:
The G-sync tax doesnt scare me off. The only worry is that they abandon it and adopt freesync. (could happen you never know) 

I doubt that they will. After all, PhysX is still around too. If they change it, they'll probably enable their cards for FSync on top of GSync while still trying to market GSync as superior.
But regardless of that, your next card may be an AMD, depending on what is best at the time you upgrade next.
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tanker27
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:21 am

Ifalna wrote:
tanker27 wrote:
The G-sync tax doesnt scare me off. The only worry is that they abandon it and adopt freesync. (could happen you never know) 

I doubt that they will. After all, PhysX is still around too.
But regardless of that, your next card may be an AMD, depending on what is best at the time you upgrade next.


nah I doubt it. I jumped off the Big Green bandwagon a few years back (when the R7's came calling), regretted it. I've always gone NVIDIA and probably will stay NVIDIA.
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:05 am

Ifalna wrote:
Hm. So bottom line of what I have learned so far:
4K is out b/c it's not useful @ 27-30" screens and software scaling is more trouble than it's worth.
Freesync is worthless to me because it doesn't work with windowed gaming. (I play mainly in windowed because it's so much more comfortable to switch in and out, esp in games like WoW or FF-XIV)
GSync works with windows but is ridiculously expensive and on top of that, there seem to be only 4-5 monitors available at all in the 27" / 1440p range, most of them some rather ugly (dat red Acer Predator) "gaming" devices. While certainly nice, I'm not sure a 200€+ tax is justified because if I am honest: I'm not the hardcore gamer anymore that I used to be.
IPS may have a glow effect that could bother me in dim/dark rooms esp during dark scenes. (no way to be sure but to order one and actually try it out)

On top of that, there seem to be serious issues in terms of QC in Asus/Acers/Dell camp. Lots of bad experiences scattered over the Internet.
So what remains would be: IPS vs VA (really want to get rid of TN color shift) and 120+Hz vs 60Hz.
If I look at IPS & 120Hz+, there only seem to be a handful of monitors out there either and guess what: they seem to be the expensive g-sync ones. :D

I agree with your assessment.

I've used a number of high-quality monitors from different vendors, and if backlight bothers you, your best best is VA, not IPS. Not needing either Freesync of Gsync is good because it increases the number of possible monitors.

...and doing some searching on those parameters, all I can find is the Acer Z271. Fortunately it appears to be a nice monitor and not expensive. Sadly it appears to be 1080p resolution.
 
Ifalna
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:19 am

Umm... unless Google tricked me, all I found is a red/black gaming monstrosity, selling at a whopping 600€+.
Also, from what I have seen on my bosses' screen: 1080p looks pretty terrible @ 27". 

I do start to believe that it's the high refresh rate that limits choices to these absurdly expensive models. Maybe the HR tech is still too young to have trickled down in price.
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:48 am

Ifalna wrote:
Umm... unless Google tricked me, all I found is a red/black gaming monstrosity, selling at a whopping 600€+.
Also, from what I have seen on my bosses' screen: 1080p looks pretty terrible @ 27". 

I do start to believe that it's the high refresh rate that limits choices to these absurdly expensive models. Maybe the HR tech is still too young to have trickled down in price.

I checked again ignoring panel technology, and it's the same everywhere. Nothing was below $700. High Refresh + Large Size + High Resolution  = pick any two.
 
Ifalna
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:17 pm

Pretty much in line with my conclusions.
Guess I'll enjoy my current monitor for a while longer.
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:26 pm

If you only game in windowed mode your not a real gamer so save your money and just buy a good cheap 1440p 60hz monitor. Don't bother paying for G-sync because it will do nothing for you in the games you play. I've got a BenQ GW2765 on my Mac mini and it's great for all round entertainment and I used to use it on my Windows gaming rig but the stuttering and tearing was noticeable with FPS games.

I mainly play AAA first person shooters and my Acer XF270HU 144hz freesync monitor is awesome combined with my Fury Pro and I will hopefully be upgrading to Vega when it comes along. It cost me £380 in the UK (before brexit) and TBH one of the best  upgrades I've ever done and I upgrade a lot. Your monitor is very important so do your research because you tend to keep a monitor a lot longer than any other component in your PC.
 
Ifalna
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:47 pm

Lordhawkwind wrote:
If you only game in windowed mode your not a real gamer

Um... whatever you say. *chuckles*
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CScottG
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Re: Wanting new monitor, research ends in confusion

Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:04 pm

tanker27 wrote:
so 4K, for now, is a no-go.


Not really.  It depends on the game, and the settings.
My guess is that most games (that can display UHD) are probably playable with most settings in the "medium-to-low" GPU-strain category with a 1070 or 980ti with a few graphics settings at "low" or just off.  For the most part the resolution itself is just a LOT more important than those extra settings. (This of course is *not* with respect to "competitive" game-play, and particularly of the 1st person shooter variety: at that point you really want a much higher frame rate than what would be considered "acceptable". It should still be fine with regular game-play and 1st person shooters.)
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