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Igor_Kavinski
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4K HDR madness

Tue May 16, 2017 4:12 am

Be warned: I need to vent.

So about a year ago I picked up an LG 4K TV on sale in anticipation for the PS4 Pro. I admit. I knew nothing about 4K at that point other than it must be better than Full HD. So when the PS4 Pro came, I found out about HDR and how it was the next big thing and I had this sinking feeling that I pulled the trigger too soon. Sure enough. TV did not support HDR even though webOS had an option for it. The TV went bust past its warranty anyway but that's another story (I HATE LG).

Guess what's the next TV I bought? The LG 55UH850V coz it was on sale (Duh! I am such a glutton for punishment). It's not bad but after seeing reviews for Vizio P50-C1, I feel like I've gotten the short end of the stick again. Complicating matters is the HDR standards situation. From what I gather, Dolby Labs developed HDR10 and gave it away for free, except they kept a flaw in it whereby loss of detail occurs in darker scenes. Dolby Vision fixes this but requires a specialized chip in both the UHD Bluray player and the TV. From Dolby Labs estimates, Dolby Vision shouldn't cost more than a dollar per TV unit sold but apparently Samsung had other plans. They dropped the bomb with their own open standard HDR10+ that is currently only promised for 2016 and beyond Samsung TV's via firmware update. Then there's upconversion of SDR content to HDR and Technicolor is supposed to deliver on that with their Advanced HDR standard (currently only promised for LG 2017 TVs). Manufacturer specific SDR to HDR upconversion schemes like Sony's HDR Remaster and LG's Active HDR promise to help you pull out the last bits of hair if you have any left after contemplating this insane situation. So what the hell am I supposed to do? Here are the options:

1) Stick with LG 55UH850V and enjoy its poor contrast and less than stellar HDR performance

2) Pick up the Vizio P50-C1 and then later buy ANOTHER TV when the HDR climate stabilizes and manufacturers make up their minds about what to support

3) Start saving and pay through the nose for LG's C7 OLED

4) Jump off a cliff and ask God to re-incarnate me as Supreme Leader of the world so I can get the heads of these TV manufacturers, Dolby Vision and Technicolor together and threaten to spank their bottoms off unless they agree on one damn HDR standard

EDIT: Forgot to mention: The following websites were excellent help in understanding the unholy mess of 4K HDR:

www.rtings.com

https://tvevaluate.com
 
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Re: 4K HDR madness

Tue May 16, 2017 5:05 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Complicating matters is the HDR standards situation. From what I gather, Dolby Labs developed HDR10 and gave it away for free, except they kept a flaw in it whereby loss of detail occurs in darker scenes.


Do you mean static metadata? It's a bit odd to call it a flaw, it's just a technology that isn't supported. Whether and to what extent that technology will be used remains to be seen.

HDR is a new technology and right now it's early adopter territory with all the incompatibilities, limitations and high costs that go with it. If you want everything to just work then I'd definitely wait another couple of years at least, It wouldn't surprise me if it took five years to get really good HDR (KS9800/Z9D quality) at the UH850 price point

It's not just the standards either, the implementations - particularly local dimming and rolloff - on a TV like the UH850 are very limited.

I'm not familiar with the Vizio but judging from rtings review it looks fairly decent, akin to a Philips PUS7601, so that might be a reasonable choice for the next five years or so. Chances are HDR10 will continue to be widely used. Every Blu-ray UHD disc that's been released supports it, even the two or three (literally) that have Dolby Vision as well.

Although of course every TV has trade-offs so make sure the weaknesses next to your current LG matter less to you than the benefits.
 
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Re: 4K HDR madness

Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:36 am

IMO the madness is that the PS4 Pro doesn't support 1440p output. I expect the X1X will do the same but I hope not.

I love my new HDR TV so much I had to get a new monitor just now, but holy **** it's expensive. And backordered. :/
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Re: 4K HDR madness

Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:55 am

If you want a decent, entry-level TV that supports WCG (wide color gamut) and HDR (at least HDR-10), then consider the Sony X800D (2016 model, VA panel on the 43", IPS on the 49") or the Sony X800E (2017 model, IPS panels across the board). Both sets come in 43' and 49" sizes, feature HDR-10 support, and offer 10-bit/WCG capable panels.

The new 2017 M series by Vizio is also a good choice, and I believe they start at 50". The 2017 Vizio P series is just a carry over from the 2016 model, hardware wise, but I think they've lost the tablet-based remote and gone with a more traditional remote.

Finally, TCL has a new P series out that supports WCG and Dolby Vision HDR/HDR-10. Bang for the buck, the TCL P series is very hard to beat right now. Some users on avsforum.com report some blooming/light bleed issues, but still, for the prices, the P series is hard to beat.

Samsung has an MU series that supports WCG and HDR-10, but be aware that the WCG on the MU series doesn't cover nearly as much of the DCI-P3 color space as their higher end models or the Sony models. Rtings.com has reviews up, and you can see the color space/volume data for all of these.
 
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Re: 4K HDR madness

Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:58 am

LG OLED owner here and OMFG is all I can say.

Last of Us in HDR is sick, and PC games pop so much, I'm considering playing more games in the livingroom.
 
Igor_Kavinski
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Re: 4K HDR madness

Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:54 am

Finally got rid of the LG UH8500 and got a Sony X900E. The first thing that annoyed me was the android OS. Nowhere near as many picture setting options as provided by LG. There is no HDR content being played notification. SDR and HDR settings are shared rather than being distinct (really poor choice to have it implemented this way). I love my colors oversaturated and the LG never disappointed in this regard. But this Sony has a real problem with red color especially in SDR content. Everything looks nice except red which becomes a muddy mess. Couldn't make out the details on Spiderman's suit. Anything below 1080p is subpar compared to the LG. But then load up 1080p and this tv starts behaving completely different. I swear 1080p upscaled by Sony looks literally indistinguishable from 2160p content. There is no fake HDR option available like in the LG (HDR effect) but I forced HDR10 mode on my 1080p copy of "Ghost in the Shell" and it came alive with punchy colors that simply blew my mind. The increased color volume is hard not to be impressed with. Damn. Just damn. Now I wish I had a petabyte of space with everything in 1080p instead of my current 720p dominated media library. Sucks!
 
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Re: 4K HDR madness

Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:49 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Now I wish I had a petabyte of space with everything in 1080p instead of my current 720p dominated media library. Sucks!


On the plus side, 720p scales up perfectly to 2160p with a 3:1 integer ratio!

EDIT And 240p scales up with a 9:1 ratio, making 4K displays way better than 1080p for retro gaming.
 
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Re: 4K HDR madness

Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:29 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Finally got rid of the LG UH8500 and got a Sony X900E. The first thing that annoyed me was the android OS. Nowhere near as many picture setting options as provided by LG. There is no HDR content being played notification. SDR and HDR settings are shared rather than being distinct (really poor choice to have it implemented this way). I love my colors oversaturated and the LG never disappointed in this regard. But this Sony has a real problem with red color especially in SDR content. Everything looks nice except red which becomes a muddy mess. Couldn't make out the details on Spiderman's suit. Anything below 1080p is subpar compared to the LG. But then load up 1080p and this tv starts behaving completely different. I swear 1080p upscaled by Sony looks literally indistinguishable from 2160p content. There is no fake HDR option available like in the LG (HDR effect) but I forced HDR10 mode on my 1080p copy of "Ghost in the Shell" and it came alive with punchy colors that simply blew my mind. The increased color volume is hard not to be impressed with. Damn. Just damn. Now I wish I had a petabyte of space with everything in 1080p instead of my current 720p dominated media library. Sucks!


Here's a link to a post in the X900E owner's thread at AVS Forum: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lcd-f ... st55493386

There is a ling to a Google Docs spreadsheet with multiple calibration settings depending on the type of content and the setup. You might find it useful!
 
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Re: 4K HDR madness

Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:05 am

NTMBK wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Now I wish I had a petabyte of space with everything in 1080p instead of my current 720p dominated media library. Sucks!


On the plus side, 720p scales up perfectly to 2160p with a 3:1 integer ratio!

EDIT And 240p scales up with a 9:1 ratio, making 4K displays way better than 1080p for retro gaming.


The problem with both of these comments is that the TV will then add horrible interpolation blur. If they could scale up without blurring so that one 720p signal pixel exactly matched blocks of 3x3 physical pixels, that would be absolutely fine.

Since I'm not aware of any TV's that can actually upscale without blurring the image, I'm on the lookout for a new 60" VA TV that is only 1080p, yet still supports modern standards. I'm assuming that such a beast does not exist because every manufacturer is pushing 4K now, despite most content not being given enough bandwidth to justify it. I'd much rather have accurate colours, deep blacks and a picture that isn't messed about by all the undesirable postprocessing but I'm clearly an outlier in this regard :(
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Re: 4K HDR madness

Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:19 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Be warned: I need to vent.
I can relate to everything in your post. Over the last several years I have adopted the attitude that display tech is such a moving target that no matter what you buy, you will be able to find something disappointing about it. I just bought a Vizio M65 and it is pretty fantastic, but it "only" has 32 active lighting zones or whatever they're called. And I also found out - after hanging it on the wall - that it does not include a TV tuner. Somehow I missed that. So I now have a separate box for that. And even though it is 4K HDR, when I plug the Xbox One into it and look at the XB's assessment of the TV, it says basically "yeah, it's 4K, but there is a lot of the 4K spec that is does not meet". Meanwhile, the most recent review of the thing says that it is none the less the best picture you can get in that price range. So, I have decided to be completely satisfied with it. It's not perfect, but nothing will be. It is certainly a nice picture. In 10 years I will buy a TV again, and find out ways that it possibly disappoints me, and hopefully I will come to the same decision that I am happy with it none the less.
 
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Re: 4K HDR madness

Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:33 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
NTMBK wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Now I wish I had a petabyte of space with everything in 1080p instead of my current 720p dominated media library. Sucks!


On the plus side, 720p scales up perfectly to 2160p with a 3:1 integer ratio!

EDIT And 240p scales up with a 9:1 ratio, making 4K displays way better than 1080p for retro gaming.


The problem with both of these comments is that the TV will then add horrible interpolation blur. If they could scale up without blurring so that one 720p signal pixel exactly matched blocks of 3x3 physical pixels, that would be absolutely fine.

Since I'm not aware of any TV's that can actually upscale without blurring the image, I'm on the lookout for a new 60" VA TV that is only 1080p, yet still supports modern standards. I'm assuming that such a beast does not exist because every manufacturer is pushing 4K now, despite most content not being given enough bandwidth to justify it. I'd much rather have accurate colours, deep blacks and a picture that isn't messed about by all the undesirable postprocessing but I'm clearly an outlier in this regard :(


It appears that the Sony X7000E I have (and related models in other regions: I think the "equivalent" in America is the 720E, but that model has an IPS panel and looks uglier, though the upscaling part still applies) handle 1080p content differently on whether it's in Graphics or Game mode.

In Graphics mode, 1080p is pixel doubled; in Game mode, 1080p is upscaled with some form of interpolation. Both have very similar input lag from my use, so use whichever that you think works best. I think the scene modes' names might make things a bit easier to determine what you might want.

Other similar Sony TVs of a similar vintage might also do such a thing, if it makes a distinction between Graphics and Game mode.

I can't get the pixel doubling to trigger in HDR mode, though. Neither does it pixel triple 720p content in Graphics mode.

Fake edit (since I found this later on): Scroll this down to "Additional Review Notes" and Rtings makes a note that this model does indeed apply pixel doubling in Graphics mode. Given I'm seeing identical behaviour on their lowest-end 4K sets... it might mean that all current-generation Sonys can be forced to pixel double 1080p when desired.

Anyway, once you start trying out non-video content on the TV, do poke around in Scene Select if you're going to use your PC or play video games at 1080p instead of 4K. And make sure you're actually outputting in 1080p if you intend to play in 1080p - the TV does a much better job upscaling 1080p to 4K than trying to sharpen poorly scaled-from-PC-end "4K" 1080p!

Mildly interesting: you can force advanced interpolation (Reality Creation) back on if you so desire.
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Re: 4K HDR madness

Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:16 pm

I’m kinda meh about HDR. I have a couple of 65” LG SJ8500s. I get my HDR content via 4K Apple TVs using Dolby Vision. There is more detail with the 4K content but I only really see it when I pixel peep (my primary content is served via my Plex server hosting backups of my Blu-ray collection (so 1080p)). As far as HDR goes I have yet to notice a difference.

Can anyone recommend content that shows a noticeable HDR difference when compared to the non HDR version?

I may have a crap setup by my Plex content looks amazing as does Amazon Prime/YouTube/MTOD. MKBHD’s 4K content (via my Chromecast Ultra) look so clear it is if he is looking at me through a window - His RED setup can take most of the credit. None of that content uses HDR.
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: 4K HDR madness

Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:17 am

Pagey wrote:
Here's a link to a post in the X900E owner's thread at AVS Forum: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lcd-f ... st55493386

There is a ling to a Google Docs spreadsheet with multiple calibration settings depending on the type of content and the setup. You might find it useful!


Wow. That looks really comprehensive. Might keep me busy for a while...
 
Igor_Kavinski
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Re: 4K HDR madness

Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:25 am

End User wrote:
I’m kinda meh about HDR. I have a couple of 65” LG SJ8500s. I get my HDR content via 4K Apple TVs using Dolby Vision. There is more detail with the 4K content but I only really see it when I pixel peep (my primary content is served via my Plex server hosting backups of my Blu-ray collection (so 1080p)). As far as HDR goes I have yet to notice a difference.

Can anyone recommend content that shows a noticeable HDR difference when compared to the non HDR version?

I may have a crap setup by my Plex content looks amazing as does Amazon Prime/YouTube/MTOD. MKBHD’s 4K content (via my Chromecast Ultra) look so clear it is if he is looking at me through a window - His RED setup can take most of the credit. None of that content uses HDR.


The best HDR content seems to be night scenes in terms of its visual impact. Unfortunately, LG seems to be making LCD's with crappy local dimming probably so that their OLEDs look much better compared to them and they can charge a higher premium. Watching night scenes on your LG UHD TV might cause you to throw a fit of rage coz of the ugly light bleed and you might be forced to get an OLED to see night scenes the way they are supposed to be seen. I was gonna get an OLED too but my impatience got the better of me. A month after buying the X900E, I found the LG B7 selling at a sweet affordable price. You can imagine how I felt at that moment. Oh well. Gonna have to enjoy what I have coz it's quite bearable (light bleed is low enough to be tolerable). Here's a splendid night scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfU0OqbnUAY

You have been warned though...
 
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Re: 4K HDR madness

Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:32 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
End User wrote:
I’m kinda meh about HDR. I have a couple of 65” LG SJ8500s. I get my HDR content via 4K Apple TVs using Dolby Vision. There is more detail with the 4K content but I only really see it when I pixel peep (my primary content is served via my Plex server hosting backups of my Blu-ray collection (so 1080p)). As far as HDR goes I have yet to notice a difference.

Can anyone recommend content that shows a noticeable HDR difference when compared to the non HDR version?

I may have a crap setup by my Plex content looks amazing as does Amazon Prime/YouTube/MTOD. MKBHD’s 4K content (via my Chromecast Ultra) look so clear it is if he is looking at me through a window - His RED setup can take most of the credit. None of that content uses HDR.


The best HDR content seems to be night scenes in terms of its visual impact. Unfortunately, LG seems to be making LCD's with crappy local dimming probably so that their OLEDs look much better compared to them and they can charge a higher premium. Watching night scenes on your LG UHD TV might cause you to throw a fit of rage coz of the ugly light bleed and you might be forced to get an OLED to see night scenes the way they are supposed to be seen. I was gonna get an OLED too but my impatience got the better of me. A month after buying the X900E, I found the LG B7 selling at a sweet affordable price. You can imagine how I felt at that moment. Oh well. Gonna have to enjoy what I have coz it's quite bearable (light bleed is low enough to be tolerable). Here's a splendid night scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfU0OqbnUAY

You have been warned though...


A friend of mine has a XBR55A1E so I'm going to check out OLED and see if my TV is as bad as you say it is.

The only OLED I have is my phone. While not a good comparison I'll see if I can spot the difference between my iPhone X and my sh*tty :P SJ8500.


Edit: I don't think your video is in HDR - I'm going to try this one as well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO01J-M3g0U

Edit 2: FFS, I don't think YouTube supports HDR on the iPHone X
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Re: 4K HDR madness

Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:07 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Here's a splendid night scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfU0OqbnUAY

You have been warned though...

I'm looking at that video on both my iPhone X (OLED) and my 2017 12.9" iPad Pro (LED-backlit). I don't see any difference (pausing both devices at the same point in the video). Both devices are at max brightness.

I'll watch this video via my Chromecast Ultra when I get home tonight.
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Re: 4K HDR madness

Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:05 pm

That splendid night video was super pixelated for me in the dark areas when I viewed it in "4K" on my U2713H (I think that is the best LCD display I have as far as colour goes).

I may have a crappy 4K HDR TV but this video in 4K via my Chromecast Ultra was amazeballs:

Image
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Re: 4K HDR madness

Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:47 am

Pagey wrote:
60
Finally, TCL has a new P series out that supports WCG and Dolby Vision HDR/HDR-10. Bang for the buck, the TCL P series is very hard to beat right now. Some users on avsforum.com report some blooming/light bleed issues, but still, for the prices, the P series is hard to beat.


Being that 4K specs can change and that 4K material is still rare, I have been telling everyone asking me for advice to not spend a lot on a 4K TV right now, like they did with the 3d Models a few years ago.

I have been recommending the TCL 55P607 (also known as the TCL 55P605 at best buy, and the difference is you get a cheap remote with the best buy option; TV is the same).

Here are the features that has me recommending this model to everyone:
Look at what you get for the price of around$500. looks like it went back up to around $600-$700 after the holidays.

1)Full-array local dimming
2)Support for both HDR-10 and Dolby Vision.
3)Built in Roku interface with features like "4K spotlight" app to help you find 4K stuff to watch
4)Pause function for live TV, using USB storage, for the built in tuner.
5) If you get the better remote in the P607, you get three important clicker extras: a headphone jack, a remote finder and the ability to search with your voice.
( If the TV is off, a voice command like "launch Netflix" will turn it on and launch the app. )

It even games pretty well.
https://www.cnet.com/products/tcl-55p607/review/
https://www.techhive.com/article/319919 ... tream.html
https://displaylag.com/gaming-review-tc ... 4k-hdr-tv/

That is a lot of stuff for the money.
 
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Re: 4K HDR madness

Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:10 am

End User wrote:
That splendid night video was super pixelated for me in the dark areas when I viewed it in "4K" on my U2713H (I think that is the best LCD display I have as far as colour goes).


Download this one: http://4kmedia.org/taipei-fireworks-uhd-4k-demo/

There are plenty of real 4k HDR videos on that site. As for the comparison between your iPhone X and the iPad 2017, the new iPad supports HDR so it probably has some kind of local dimming. But weird that u dont see more vibrant and popping colors on your iphone X. That's the first thing I notice whenever i see an OLED or AMOLED display. The colors are simply way richer than anything else out there.
 
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Re: 4K HDR madness

Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:25 pm

Perhaps I have bad eyes.
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