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HERETIC
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:26 pm

just brew it! wrote:
HERETIC wrote:
840EVO was not Sammys last planer TLC-They still selling 750EVO............

Isn't that one based on previous-gen (larger cells) flash though? The leakage issues with TLC didn't become unmanageable until the last process shrink pushed things over the edge. That's why V-NAND/3D-NAND is such a big deal -- it allows flash chip storage densities to keep increasing, while keeping the size of individual cells large enough to prevent leakage from wreaking havoc with long-term data retention capabilities.


Sammys No system would suggest it's older-but it's newer and smaller.Best I can tell-
Samsung 840 released approx Oct 2012. 19nm process.
Samsung 750EVO released April 2016 approx. 16nm process.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/10258/the ... lanar-nand
My guess when the 750 came out was that it was a tweaked 840Evo with firmware fix.
As much as we love to knock Sammys uncaring attitude,the 750 is probably the best planer TLC drive out there,
problem is Sammy knows that,and that's why it's not cheaper...................................
EDIT
The 750 has a newer MGX controller that has LDPC error correction-
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/sam ... ,4467.html
 
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:24 pm

840 vanilla is 21nm TLC, 840 Pro is 21nm MLC
840 Evo is 19nm TLC so slightly finer meant problems showed up in half the time
750 Evo is 16nm TLC, what could go wrong? They needed a candidate for the race to the bottom and period reviews actually said Samsung should have an advantage over other 15/16nm planar TLC drive manufacturers because they were so used to dealing with ECC performance issues from the 840 series...
 
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:56 pm

Ugh... OK, so even if Samsung manages to get off my sh*t list, I'm avoiding the 750 series. What could go wrong, indeed!
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HERETIC
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:33 pm

bfg-9000 wrote:
840 vanilla is 21nm TLC, 840 Pro is 21nm MLC
840 Evo is 19nm TLC so slightly finer meant problems showed up in half the time
750 Evo is 16nm TLC, what could go wrong? They needed a candidate for the race to the bottom and period reviews actually said Samsung should have an advantage over other 15/16nm planar TLC drive manufacturers because they were so used to dealing with ECC performance issues from the 840 series...


Thanks for the correction.
LDPC error correction seems to have solved the problems with planer TLC.
The race to the bottom now continues with ram-less drives.
 
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:52 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Ugh... OK, so even if Samsung manages to get off my sh*t list, I'm avoiding the 750 series. What could go wrong, indeed!


It's a product that is not aimed at "us"originally it was aimed at the white box market.
It sits just above a huge bunch of low end drives you'd think twice before putting in granny's lappy.
With prices going up and the race to the bottom, it's getting hard to find good budget drives these days.
Where I live I'm limited to 850EVO,MX300 and a bunch of rubbish...........
Oh and WD blue and green-where someone thinks the WD blue is worth more than 850EVO haha.............
 
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:56 pm

Biggins wrote:
I'm planning on purchasing a new monitor in the next few months and the Samsung C27FG70 was on my list. It was low on the list because of the low 1920x1080 resolution for a 27 inch monitor. I'm looking for one with 2560x1440 resolution and Freesync like the Asus MG278Q, 279Q or Nixeus EDG 27. The Samsung didn't check enough boxes for me but I'm going to avoid that brand in the near future. I had a 20" Samsung monitor back in 2005 and it lasted a several years without any problems. Hopefully they can get their QA problems worked out and become a reputable company again.

Also, I bought a Samsung 840 SSD (non EVO) and it's been very dependable. I saw there are new drivers for both versions of the 840. I might download those in case I'm having SSD issues and haven't noticed it. Thanks for all the info!
Absolutely. Thanks for the read. I have a friend with an MG279Q and the contrast is absolutely mediocre. I might be spoiled by VA displays, though. :)

HERETIC wrote:
With prices going up and the race to the bottom, it's getting hard to find good budget drives these days.
That's no joke. You can still find cheap Mushkin Reactors though.
 
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:26 am

HERETIC wrote:
LDPC error correction seems to have solved the problems with planer TLC.

I'd say "solved". With scare quotes.

That's like saying you "solved" the problem of chunks of concrete coming off the facade of a decrepit old building by installing a safety net over the street below to keep the falling chunks from damaging cars and killing pedestrians.

HERETIC wrote:
The race to the bottom now continues with ram-less drives.

If you're referring to the 750 specifically, they're not RAM-less. They integrated the RAM onto the controller. I have no problem with that; if you have the die space, it makes sense.

What I have a problem with is using flash that has such lousy inherent data retention characteristics that you have to resort to extreme measures with additional layers of ECC to make it usable.
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:25 am

As an aside, the SSD tangent in this thread prompted me to go do a little reading about LDPC. Interesting stuff. They're essentially applying tech that started out as a way to transmit data over noisy/lossy communication networks (e.g. cellular), and using it to reconstruct data from "lossy" flash chips instead. IOW, they're treating flipped bits in the flash as if they were communication errors on a network.

It's a pretty clever (or sick, depending on how you look at it) hack.

More and more these days, I find myself saying "It's amazing that this stuff works at all".
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HERETIC
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:58 am

just brew it! wrote:
As an aside, the SSD tangent in this thread prompted me to go do a little reading about LDPC. Interesting stuff. They're essentially applying tech that started out as a way to transmit data over noisy/lossy communication networks (e.g. cellular), and using it to reconstruct data from "lossy" flash chips instead. IOW, they're treating flipped bits in the flash as if they were communication errors on a network.

It's a pretty clever (or sick, depending on how you look at it) hack.

More and more these days, I find myself saying "It's amazing that this stuff works at all".


Agree 100% with that last statement-which takes us back to RAGEPRO's original post which I apologies we've hijacked a little,
Everything is rushed to market for fear of someone else beating them to it.

SSD's have been a classic example-Sandforce and OCZ used customers as "crash test dummies" for years-I get the same impression
with Phison these days.
 
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:12 am

just brew it! wrote:
HERETIC wrote:
LDPC error correction seems to have solved the problems with planer TLC.

I'd say "solved". With scare quotes.

That's like saying you "solved" the problem of chunks of concrete coming off the facade of a decrepit old building by installing a safety net over the street below to keep the falling chunks from damaging cars and killing pedestrians.

HERETIC wrote:
The race to the bottom now continues with ram-less drives.

If you're referring to the 750 specifically, they're not RAM-less. They integrated the RAM onto the controller. I have no problem with that; if you have the die space, it makes sense.

What I have a problem with is using flash that has such lousy inherent data retention characteristics that you have to resort to extreme measures with additional layers of ECC to make it usable.


No, I was aware the smaller sizes of the 750 had the Ram in the controller. The 750 sits way above the ram-less.
On the bottom of the pile you have the Ram-less drives,then the planer TLC then you have the 750,the San disk Ultra2 and the Hynix 308.
Those 3 are the best of the TLC drives,before you get to MLC.
 
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:57 pm

slavik6 wrote:
RAGEPRO, I have the exact same monitor and had the exact same "purple in the black" issue. I'll tell you how i fixed it but you're not going to like the answer... once I stopped running at 144hz and switched to 120hz, I have not had it happen again.

"But you can't use 144hz!" - yeah I know, but like RAGEPRO said, it's such a good looking monitor and even at 120hz, I'm a happy camper. In the grand scheme of things, only being able to use 120hz is a pretty good problem to have.


I have one of these (24" version as well, downgraded due to desk size), and it works fine.... but I've only ever used it in FreeSync mode. Which may be why I haven't seen the problem.

But something else interesting is going on, so I thought I'd ask for some help/advice: There's a stupid "LED lamp" feature on the monitor stand. Supposedly, it can blink/flash in time with audio input.

This doesn't really matter to me, but I'm curious about it, so I passed sound through to it and plugged in a headset. Cleaned up some wiring to have my headset come out of the monitor as well.

No sound, none. Weird, so I reverse the input/output. No sound. So I then re-connect my headset directly to my sound card and test it as working. I checked the male/male 3.5 cable, working. I test the monitor one more time. No sound. I then notice that the monitor has a volume control (why?!) and play with that a bit, but no change. I don't really care about the light strobing feature, but it would be nice to run my audio cables via the monitor.

Anyone have any ideas on this?
 
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:21 pm

What input are you using for the video? If you're on HDMI or DisplayPort maybe it is expecting to see the audio come from there instead of the 3.5mm jack?

If you can, try temporarily switching to DVI and see if that activates the 3.5mm audio input. Or switch your system's audio config to route audio to HDMI/DisplayPort.
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:16 pm

just brew it! wrote:
What input are you using for the video? If you're on HDMI or DisplayPort maybe it is expecting to see the audio come from there instead of the 3.5mm jack?

If you can, try temporarily switching to DVI and see if that activates the 3.5mm audio input. Or switch your system's audio config to route audio to HDMI/DisplayPort.


I haven't tried HDMI because the monitor specs say that input caps out at 100FPS (this is from memory, it might be either 60 or 75 Hz max), but that's a good thought.

Still, it has 3.5mm inputs and outputs, you'd expect that they would work? I'll try connecting via HDMI tonight and make sure, although IIRC the 390 series can't use FreeSync over that interface...
 
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:40 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
What input are you using for the video? If you're on HDMI or DisplayPort maybe it is expecting to see the audio come from there instead of the 3.5mm jack?

If you can, try temporarily switching to DVI and see if that activates the 3.5mm audio input. Or switch your system's audio config to route audio to HDMI/DisplayPort.

I haven't tried HDMI because the monitor specs say that input caps out at 100FPS (this is from memory, it might be either 60 or 75 Hz max), but that's a good thought.

I was just suggesting it as a temporary measure to see if input switching is indeed the issue.

Vhalidictes wrote:
Still, it has 3.5mm inputs and outputs, you'd expect that they would work? I'll try connecting via HDMI tonight and make sure, although IIRC the 390 series can't use FreeSync over that interface...

My working theory is that the 3.5mm analog input may only be active if you're using a video input source that does not natively support digital audio. Otherwise the audio input is expected to come over the video connection.

You could also try digging around in the monitor's menus to see if there's a setting to switch the audio input independently of the video input.
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:51 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Ugh... OK, so even if Samsung manages to get off my sh*t list, I'm avoiding the 750 series. What could go wrong, indeed!


For all of the things I think Samsung cheaps out on, the 850 EVO line has proven to be doggone good. Amazing performance for what has been a very decent price-point. I agree, the 840 EVO turned out to be a dud, sadly. I feel the worst for the people who got the OEM Dell version, because they never got any firmware updates to attempt to resolve the issue. But as Crucial has trended downward some from the vaunted M500/M550 drives from several years ago, the 850 EVO has been rock solid for us, and we regularly use it as the go-to for client systems because they're fast and we don't have issues with them. And unlike some of the midrange offerings, it supports OPAL encryption in hardware.
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:04 am

LoneWolf15 wrote:
But as Crucial has trended downward some from the vaunted M500/M550 drives from several years ago

At the risk of going off-topic, aren't the MX300 drives from Crucial really good? I've been buying dozens of the 525GB variants and they've been both fast and flawlessly reliable so far.
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:03 am

The HDMI input on the CFG70 supports 120-Hz operation, but not 144-Hz. It'll do FreeSync over HDMI too. The 1/8" audio jack only works when you're using DisplayPort with a device that doesn't support sending audio over DisplayPort.

Anyway, no response from my Executive Care Administrator. I'll give her 'til the end of the day and e-mail her tomorrow, I guess.
 
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:15 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
LoneWolf15 wrote:
But as Crucial has trended downward some from the vaunted M500/M550 drives from several years ago

At the risk of going off-topic, aren't the MX300 drives from Crucial really good? I've been buying dozens of the 525GB variants and they've been both fast and flawlessly reliable so far.


Yes and No. It depends on what you mean.

MX300's are reliable, low-power, large (odd bigger sizing) and inexpensive for the presumed product level.

They are also very slow (excepting cached writes which are good). There are theories that they don't have good longevity, but I've only seen theories, not facts on that score.

That might be the reason that people are all over the map regarding them. I prefer planar MLC because it's fast and cheap, but for laptops I'd recommend the MX300 for the power savings.

TLDR; IMO they are fine drives but other people get annoyed by the slow read performance.
 
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:05 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
LoneWolf15 wrote:
But as Crucial has trended downward some from the vaunted M500/M550 drives from several years ago

At the risk of going off-topic, aren't the MX300 drives from Crucial really good? I've been buying dozens of the 525GB variants and they've been both fast and flawlessly reliable so far.


I wouldn't call them amazing, but they're fine IMO. Plusses include a good Marvel controller, and onboard encryption support (something I'd always prefer in a mobile environment, not as big of a deal for a desktiop, once again, IMO), plus they're on the less expensive side for a full-featured SSD at current flash-shortage prices. Con includes it not being fast relative to other drives, including the Samsung 850 EVO. If you want a speed demon, the MX300 isn't it. If you want "fast enough", the 1TB MX300 is one of the better values. Though I'd still buy an 850 EVO over one if you can find similar pricing.
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:26 am

LoneWolf15 wrote:
But as Crucial has trended downward some from the vaunted M500/M550 drives from several years ago,


You don't need to go back that far-In 2015 we had the BX100 a really good budget drive and well priced.
Sadly that was replaced with the BX200-A real lemon.........................................................
 
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:00 pm

HERETIC wrote:
LoneWolf15 wrote:
But as Crucial has trended downward some from the vaunted M500/M550 drives from several years ago,


You don't need to go back that far-In 2015 we had the BX100 a really good budget drive and well priced.
Sadly that was replaced with the BX200-A real lemon.........................................................


While that's certainly possible, I tend to measure by the M-series because there are some extra features that are important to me. TCG Opal encryption (much better performance in a BitLocker environment for laptops, where you'll probably make the most of this) and either at-rest or in some cases full power-loss data protection, these actually separate drives from the pack these days. The absolute cheapest drive for the money to feature these is currently the Crucial MX300, and the next less expensive is the Samsung 850 EVO, which is currently quite a jump up in price (but is also considerably faster overall).

If neither of these features are of interest, then the truth is, a Silicon Motion controller drive like the Mushkin Reactor will do you, being plenty fast. But the Crucial M and MX lines have been the variants with the extra features, and the BX has always been the value drive, which while not bad, can be equaled or bettered by other value drives (though Crucial's customer support may be better) in performance and cost.
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:01 am

So predictably I didn't hear from "Karen" again until I e-mailed her on the 14th. She didn't respond for more than a day, and when she did she said this:
I Apologize for the delay, I waiting for approval to proceed with the refund. Unfortunately I cannot proceed until I get approval from the regional manager. I just reached out to him again .
About an hour after I got that e-mail, she then told me this:
A refund order has been placed under order number Service order: [redacted]. the refund is for a total of 253.50​.

The refund team will be proceeding with your exchange, once the ticket is approved they will contact you .
I'm sorry, what? I didn't pay $253 for the monitor, I paid upwards of $300. I redirected her attention to my Newegg invoice, which I had already sent, and she replied promptly and curtly that the amount had been updated to the correct $313. Alright then.

That was on the 15th. I have again heard nothing from this company for a week. So, yesterday I e-mailed "Karen" one more time asking her how long this process usually takes. She replied:
I Apologies for the Inconvenience, Unfortunately this is no longer my department . I do not know how long it usually takes. All I can see is that your order is still on the approval process. they should be contacting you as soon as it is fully approved. You can try calling 1800-Samsung and provide them with the refund order number [redacted]​, and tell them to transfer you to the refund department.
Lovely.

Calling up 1-800-Samsung I ended up being on hold for a surprisingly long time—just five or six minutes, but in the past I had gotten to a representative immediately. The person I ended up speaking to had such heavily-accented speech that I could hardly understand him. I gave him my ticket number and he put me on hold. He gave me a reason, but I have no idea what he said. After that, he came back and spoke to me at length; again, I don't really know what he was saying but after some back-and-forth I figured out that he was telling me there was nothing he could do and that I had to wait for the refund team to contact me.

He assured me that I would hear from them "within twenty-four to forty-eight hours," so we'll see what happens, I guess. Note that I started all this mess in March and it is about to be July. Oh, and my aforementioned friend's monitor broke again. She's getting a refund through Newegg, though. Another friend of hers has several of these monitors, and some of his show the problem too. A quick glance at Amazon reviews indicates that this is a pretty widespread issue with the monitor.

As I mentioned before the most frustrating thing about all of this is that I just want the monitor to work. It's so fabulous when it's working properly. Amusingly, the monitor has come down in price quite a bit since I bought it, and now Samsung is bringing out a new revision with a different stand. (Amazon UK; the C24FG73 doesn't appear to have hit the 'States yet.) I wonder if they've resolved the issue that's causing all the problems on this monitor, though? The LC24FG73 seems to use the same panel and everything.

It's not impossible that I could give Samsung another shot, mostly just because this monitor has no competition in the market right now. If I do, though, I'm gonna be buying an extended warranty from the seller with it. There's no way I'm going through this crap again.
 
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:32 am

RAGEPRO wrote:
It's not impossible that I could give Samsung another shot, mostly just because this monitor has no competition in the market right now. If I do, though, I'm gonna be buying an extended warranty from the seller with it. There's no way I'm going through this crap again.

You're far more forgiving than I am. Any vendor that pulled this kind of crap would be on my "avoid" list for at least a couple of years; given their other recent issues (unfortunately I was one of the unlucky people who bought multiple 840 EVO drives), I'm pretty close to saying "no more Samsung for me, ever".
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:23 am

just brew it! wrote:
RAGEPRO wrote:
It's not impossible that I could give Samsung another shot, mostly just because this monitor has no competition in the market right now. If I do, though, I'm gonna be buying an extended warranty from the seller with it. There's no way I'm going through this crap again.

You're far more forgiving than I am. Any vendor that pulled this kind of crap would be on my "avoid" list for at least a couple of years; given their other recent issues (unfortunately I was one of the unlucky people who bought multiple 840 EVO drives), I'm pretty close to saying "no more Samsung for me, ever".

I totally agree, JBI. While I would still boycott a vendor out of principle I can't see any large corporation behaving much different.
 
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:43 am

DragonDaddyBear wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
You're far more forgiving than I am. Any vendor that pulled this kind of crap would be on my "avoid" list for at least a couple of years; given their other recent issues (unfortunately I was one of the unlucky people who bought multiple 840 EVO drives), I'm pretty close to saying "no more Samsung for me, ever".

I totally agree, JBI. While I would still boycott a vendor out of principle I can't see any large corporation behaving much different.

Sure, most companies push the envelope at some point, cut too many corners, and release a stinker of a product. But if people still buy the products anyway, what incentive (outside of really massive debacles like the Note 7 which result in a recall) do they have to do better? When a company really pisses me off with clearly shoddy product or consistently poor customer service, generally I vote with my wallet -- they essentially get a 1-2 year ban, which gets lifted if it sounds like they're turning things around.

I can't think of a single instance where there was a product that I wanted SO much that I had to break that rule.
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:56 am

just brew it! wrote:
You're far more forgiving than I am. Any vendor that pulled this kind of crap would be on my "avoid" list for at least a couple of years; given their other recent issues (unfortunately I was one of the unlucky people who bought multiple 840 EVO drives), I'm pretty close to saying "no more Samsung for me, ever".
just brew it! wrote:
I can't think of a single instance where there was a product that I wanted SO much that I had to break that rule.
Less "forgiving" and more "stuck". Which is to say that I want a monitor with the qualities outlined in the first post and nobody else seems to be able to deliver. My choices are essentially to either give up on having such a monitor or buy another Samsung, neither of which I'm very happy about. I considered compromising and just getting another 144-Hz TN, but I don't know if I could stand looking at it next to my fantastic LG IPS and my AOC VAs, heh!
 
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:10 am

RAGEPRO wrote:
Less "forgiving" and more "stuck". Which is to say that I want a monitor with the qualities outlined in the first post and nobody else seems to be able to deliver.

FTFY.

If they can't produce it in a way that means it consistently works as advertised, they're not "delivering"; they're effectively selling lab prototypes. Just like they did with the 840 EVO up until the release of the final firmware iteration. Multiple instances of half-baked -- and in some cases, hazardous -- products making it to market over a relatively short period of time is some pretty strong circumstantial evidence that their corporate culture is broken.

Samsung remains on my "avoid" list indefinitely.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:41 am

just brew it! wrote:
If they can't produce it in a way that means it consistently works as advertised, they're not "delivering"; they're effectively selling lab prototypes.
Yeah, you're right, of course. Man, this sucks. It's enough to drive a man to drink! :P
 
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:10 pm

At the end of the day it's just a monitor...
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Re: Samsung C24FG70—best monitor, worst support

Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:25 pm

Just a play on your username, boss. :)

I really hope Samsung calls me today. Actually I'll be surprised if they call me within the next -week- but I'll give 'em 'til next Wednesday I guess. I don't even understand why the phonecall is necessary; can't they just cut me a check? What's the holdup? Why is there all this red tape?

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