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LostCat
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Re: Samsung FreeSync TVs in 2018

Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:05 pm

Redocbew wrote:
LostCat wrote:
All that open source code for their game tech vs PhysX/Gameworks kinda speaks for itself.


I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "all that open source code", but FreeSync 2 requires LFC, and LFC is a "secret sauce". Whether it's done in hardware or software I don't think is particularly important. The point(Ryu can slap me with a trout if I get this wrong) is that if you want to make the stance of "open source good, proprietary bad", then you should be aware that AMD isn't completely on the open source side here at all.

I wasn't referring to Freesync 2 there. I was referring to this - https://gpuopen.com/ as a counterpoint to 'AMD only cares about the bottom line' stuff (which may be true, but at this point NV are the ones being dinks about things elsewhere.)

AMD is doing something I don't entirely approve of with FS2 (though much of it is available in Freesync for DisplayPort, which is not closed off.) NVIDIA is doing something I don't approve of with G-Sync. And once HDMI 2.1 is widely available nobody is going to care about either standard except for the kit they already have.
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LostCat
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Re: Samsung FreeSync TVs in 2018

Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:07 pm

The Egg wrote:
@ the
While you may end up being right about Intel, from a logical standpoint, people using those integrated GPUs have almost zero impact on the sales of gaming displays, nor care anything of VRR. The two major consoles, as pure gaming machines, should be the real 800lb gorillas.

Of course things don't always work logically.

Intel does have processors integrated with Vega now, so those do count as Intel gaming machines even without their GPUs in them.

It's a start as far as VRR goes. Beyond that, we'll have to see.
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Ryu Connor
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Re: Samsung FreeSync TVs in 2018

Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:08 pm

the wrote:
Certain features can get back ported in specs as optional extensions. Often it is little things like 4k30 support on devices that are only rated for HDMI 1.3 for example. Easy to add as that doesn't change the core signaling of HDMI 1.x.

Agreed but HDR is a mess everywhere in general. This will eventually sort itself out long term as it always happens when a dozen competing standards rush to market to gain the early adopter market share. The idea that nVidia could launch their own HDR standard should just be a punchline but it is something I can see happening.


The TV in the opening post is an example of what you're saying. The controller for said Samsung TV speaks HDMI 2.0, but their engineers implemented 2.1 VRR and AMD's vendor-specific extensions. So, yeah, HDMI VRR can be backported, but I don't see anything that implies that it can be done in software and we know it's cost prohibitive to release a new revision of Pascal just to get 2.1 VRR into the silicon.

NVIDIA has announced GSync HDR displays.

https://images.nvidia.com/content/gsync ... epaper.pdf

At a glance, it appears NVIDIA will be sticking to TV HDR standards with DCI-P3, HDR10, and 1000 nit peak brightness.

We'll see at release, but for the moment it seems like GSync HDR will adhere to more common standards than FreeSync 2 HDR.
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Redocbew
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Re: Samsung FreeSync TVs in 2018

Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:17 pm

LostCat wrote:
I wasn't referring to Freesync 2 there. I was referring to this - https://gpuopen.com/ as a counterpoint to 'AMD only cares about the bottom line' stuff (which may be true, but at this point NV are the ones being dinks about things elsewhere.)


If that was purely altruistic, then it wouldn't have AMDs name all over it. :P

It's basically the same thing as giving stuff away to film crews hoping they'll use some of it in the movie. Marketing people don't look at these things as gifts. It's just money spent as part of their budget for promoting the company.
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LostCat
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Re: Samsung FreeSync TVs in 2018

Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:47 pm

Redocbew wrote:
If that was purely altruistic, then it wouldn't have AMDs name all over it. :P

It's basically the same thing as giving stuff away to film crews hoping they'll use some of it in the movie. Marketing people don't look at these things as gifts. It's just money spent as part of their budget for promoting the company.

If AMD wasn't developing it and releasing it, then it wouldn't have AMDs name all over it.

Either way the point was they don't block people from optimizing their code for NVIDIA cards or other similar nonsense.
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Re: Samsung FreeSync TVs in 2018

Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:07 pm

LostCat wrote:
If AMD wasn't developing it and releasing it, then it wouldn't have AMDs name all over it.

Either way the point was they don't block people from optimizing their code for NVIDIA cards or other similar nonsense.


https://developer.nvidia.com/physx-source-github

https://developer.nvidia.com/gameworks-source-github

This aside, picking a white knight between these organizations, is only gonna get you burned one day.
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LostCat
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Re: Samsung FreeSync TVs in 2018

Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Ryu Connor wrote:
https://developer.nvidia.com/physx-source-github

https://developer.nvidia.com/gameworks-source-github

This aside, picking a white knight between these organizations, is only gonna get you burned one day.

Those links are useless unless I register. I'm no developer, so no thanks.

The only thing I'm being burned by is the crypto manufacturing crunch. (I currently own a 1070 because Vega still doesn't really exist in cards as far as I'm concerned.)

If this mining craze is ever over we'll all be much happier. :(

But as for right now there's nothing AMD has done in a long time that I can complain about except not quite being as good with heat and power. I will allow on the NV side the 10 series is the first thing I've been really impressed by since the 6 series. Can't argue with my current kit other than wishing it supported Freesync.
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DPete27
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Re: Samsung FreeSync TVs in 2018

Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:21 am

Ryu Connor wrote:
The HDMI standard allows for vendor-specific extensions to the specifications. AMD used that to create HDMI FreeSync. HDMI FreeSync is 100% an AMD creation. NVIDIA can obviously do the same thing, but that will create yet another standard. Do you really want another standard? A standard that will require a whole new spate of monitors with support for the NVIDIA vendor-specific HDMI extensions

So FreeSync displays actually do have proprietary FreeSync hardware inside? From everything I've heard they don't, which would imply that everything AMD is doing with FreeSync is at the driver/GPU level. If that's a "competing standard" then we're into the pool of how AMD vs Nvidia GPUs render games differently both on a hardware and driver level, even on non-VRR displays....

Redocbew wrote:
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "all that open source code", but FreeSync 2 requires LFC, and LFC is a "secret sauce".

Secret sauce?
=if(framerate<min refresh rate,double frame,do nothing)
Doesn't seem that special to me.

It seems that people are losing sight of the problem: That GSync requires a proprietary hardware module inside the display, and without licence to that proprietary key, AMD GPUs cannot enable VRR on any GSync display. Therefore GSync displays are GPU vendor locked. On the other hand, at least to my knowledge, tomorrow Nvidia could utilize VESA Adaptive Sync (there's rumors that they already do this in GSync laptops) to implement VRR on any existing "FreeSync" display on the market. Could Nvidia call it "FreeSync"? Maybe not, but that doesn't have anything to do with the display you own/buy. The only reason it's not just called Adaptive Sync is because AMD wanted/needed a catch phrase to compete against GSync, so they reached out to manufacturers to implement the label. If both companies utilize the same display tech, the FreeSync name becomes meaningless.
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Redocbew
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Re: Samsung FreeSync TVs in 2018

Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:08 pm

DPete27 wrote:
Secret sauce?
=if(framerate<min refresh rate,double frame,do nothing)
Doesn't seem that special to me.


Frame repeating is only our best guess, no? Has AMD ever fully disclosed that's what LFC is doing?

Regardless, I agree that once all this shakes out it'll just be another anonymous bullet point of "variable refresh rate support". I'm just not convinced that AMDs version of it will be verbatim what that means in the end.
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Re: Samsung FreeSync TVs in 2018

Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:30 pm

DPete27 wrote:
So FreeSync displays actually do have proprietary FreeSync hardware inside? From everything I've heard they don't, which would imply that everything AMD is doing with FreeSync is at the driver/GPU level. If that's a "competing standard" then we're into the pool of how AMD vs Nvidia GPUs render games differently both on a hardware and driver level, even on non-VRR displays....


Yes, some FreeSync displays have proprietary FreeSync hardware inside. The TV in this opening post is one such display that posesses proprietary FreeSync hardware.

HDMI VRR is not FreeSync HDMI, they are electrically different.
FreeSync HDMI is not VESA Adaptive Sync, HDMI and DisplayPort are not electrically compatible with one another.
FreeSync HDMI is not free, it is proprietary special sauce enumerated via AMD's HDMI vendor-specific extensions.
FreeSync 2 HDR is not free, it too has proprietary pieces.

You guys are concerning me. I feel like I'm having to tell you guys that AMD isn't the unicorn you thought it was. AMD is a business who likes money, you should have seen this coming.
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Re: Samsung FreeSync TVs in 2018

Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:42 pm

I think this should make it A LOT easier for you guys. If you see the word Freesync, it's AMD's own special sauce. End of story. That may be hardware, software, or both, but that word and implementation is AMD, full stop.

HDMI VRR and VESA Adaptive Sync are the underlying technologies that AMD bases its implementations on. Just like Nvidia. (edit: I should clarify - they don't just take these technologies and slap their name on them. hence the special sauce mentioned. they do their own work on top of the ideas underlying HDMI VRR and Adaptive Sync)

https://www.amd.com/Documents/freesync-hdmi.pdf
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Re: Samsung FreeSync TVs in 2018

Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:57 pm

DancinJack wrote:
I think this should make it A LOT easier for you guys. If you see the word Freesync, it's AMD's own special sauce. End of story. That may be hardware, software, or both, but that word and implementation is AMD, full stop.


Probably worth reminding people, even if it is proprietary software, that's no small problem. Oracle v Google has set a precedent that APIs, not just code, are copyrightable. That ruling is not a good consumer outcome for any sort of cross compatibility between these competitors.
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Re: Samsung FreeSync TVs in 2018

Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:58 pm

Ryu Connor wrote:
DancinJack wrote:
I think this should make it A LOT easier for you guys. If you see the word Freesync, it's AMD's own special sauce. End of story. That may be hardware, software, or both, but that word and implementation is AMD, full stop.


Probably worth reminding people, even if it is proprietary software, that's no small problem. Oracle v Google has set a precedent that APIs, not just code, are copyrightable. That ruling is not a good consumer outcome for any sort of cross compatibility between these competitors.

Right you are, sir.

Btw that whole Java suit is infuriating. To the highest degree.
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DPete27
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Re: Samsung FreeSync TVs in 2018

Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:26 pm

@Ryu - Per your comments, I went looking for more info. Turns out it's right here on TR. Since I'm not as knowledgeable in tech as you are, when I read that article back in Dec 2015 (and still today), the whole bit about HDMI vendor-specific extensions went right over my head. Reading it again now, this bit did get my attention:
AMD's use of vendor-specific [HDMI] extensions....If variable-refresh support is included in a future HDMI specification, that spec should be able to coexist peacefully with products that support AMD's extensions. The company expects that its hardware should be compatible with a future HDMI specification for VRR operation, too.

I still can't find anything that says there is special/proprietary hardware inside every FreeSync display though. Also, how are vendor-specific HDMI extensions handled? Are they part of the firmware data for the display? Does a VESA Adaptive Sync display with FreeSync HDMI extensions then lock Nvidia out of using VESA Adaptive Sync in that display? What about Display Port?

However, the original article about Samsung FreeSync TVs states:
Samsung confirmed to us that some of its 2018 TVs will support HDMI 2.1’s VRR (variable refresh rate) as well as FreeSync at up to 120Hz.

What do you make of that? Since HDMI 2.1 spec contains VRR, does that do away with the need for AMDs vendor specific HDMI extensions? It sounded from the 2015 TR article linked above that AMD fully anticipated the need for their HDMI extensions to become obsolete as soon as the HDMI spec included VRR.
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Redocbew
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Re: Samsung FreeSync TVs in 2018

Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:04 am

Freesync 2 was described as proprietary by AMD last year at their tech summit. Video is below complete with really awful background noise.

https://youtu.be/SrrTCz1hyaQ

Of course they were quick to say that they'd be working with the rest of the industry, but we've all seen this movie before, right? Megacorp builds proprietary widget, and then says, "But we want you all to have it. Really. As soon as we can make sure anything you do with it will fit our agenda, then we'll just give it away."
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Re: Samsung FreeSync TVs in 2018

Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:07 am

Redocbew wrote:
Of course they were quick to say that they'd be working with the rest of the industry, but we've all seen this movie before, right?

So basically like Mantle turning into Vulkan?

Heh. And the jury's still out on whether DX12 was based on Mantle as well.
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DPete27
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Re: Samsung FreeSync TVs in 2018

Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:29 am

@Redocbew - watched the video you linked. Still not sure it answers my question though. I have a Samsung C27HG70 monitor that is FreeSync 2 compatible (more on that later). Are there any licensing hurdles standing in the way of Nvidia pushing VRR on that same monitor (would Nvidia have to pay AMD to implement VRR on my monitor)? I'm not talking about Nvidia having to create their own HDMI extensions (which don't sound like hardware restrictions, so I imagine would be a side-load firmware update to the monitor at most) or any driver/API work/creations they have to do to support VRR on my monitor. My understanding is that the GSync module inside every GSync display acts as a gatekeeper: Qualifier = Does the GPU present the Nvidia-owned licensing necessary to make the module enable VRR? If not [AMD/Intel GPU] then the module still gives you access to the fixed refresh rate of the panel (aka module bypass), but that's basically paying the "GSync tax" for a display thats functioning the same as any other fixed 144Hz display.

Does anyone see the difference I'm trying to describe? Am I completely uninformed here? Why does any of the proprietary stuff outside of the physical display matter? If AMD/Nvidia/Intel can't come to some sort of agreement on a VRR API to use (TressFX and Hairworks comes to mind), let them waste money having to make sure game devs are including their tech so that VRR is possible using their hardware so they remain competitive. Sounds like (and again, maybe I'm wrong here) VESA AdaptiveSync over DP is already standardized, and HDMI2.1 spec negates the need for AMD's extensions altogether (the only reason they needed the extensions in the first place was because HDMI2.0 didn't support Adaptive Sync). This nonsense about vendor-locking GPU customers to VRR displays is the real problem that just needs to end.

On FreeSync2 - At least from the stuff I've read/understand and the video Redocbew linked, the hardware/display side of that classification is nothing more than a spec requirement: The display must have a minimum 2x refresh range, must support ____ color space (HDR), must operate at < ____ms latency, etc etc etc. That's all panel requirements, which from a high level, is approaching/equivalent to the same panel requirements that Nvidia has been requiring in order for a GSync module to be inserted. Whatever AMD is doing with their driver/API to optimize how their GPUs talk to VRR displays is irrelevant IMO.

(Not trying to be combative, just trying to understand)
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Redocbew
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Re: Samsung FreeSync TVs in 2018

Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:17 pm

DPete27 wrote:
Are there any licensing hurdles standing in the way of Nvidia pushing VRR on that same monitor


For a variable refresh rate purely defined by VESA Adpative-Sync without any proprietary extensions I would say no, but it's not in Nvidia's(or AMD's) interest to do that. It could easily be that the proprietary extensions actually makes the variable refresh rate work better than it would otherwise, so I'm not saying this deal has been completely useless, but it is kind of lame and annoying that there's been so much posturing around it all.

would Nvidia have to pay AMD to implement VRR on my monitor


If there was a license available from AMD, then I suppose they could, but I don't believe there is one. For AMD, it's looking like the proprietary bits are all in software, so I suppose they could license the technology and allow Nvidia to implement it in their own drivers, but AMD called it "FreeSync" which makes licensing anything awkward for them. There'd be no reason for Nvidia to buy the license anyway.
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DPete27
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Re: Samsung FreeSync TVs in 2018

Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:44 pm

In the case of FreeSync over HDMI, it seems allowing custom extensions is preferable because it allows vendors (AMD in this case) to implement features (ie VRR over HDMI) without having to wait until they get adopted into the standard. In this case, it took 2 years from the time AMD implemented FreeSync over HDMI2.0 until HDMI2.1 was ratified with VRR over HDMI. I'm sure AMD had a large hand in getting that feature adopted in the HDMI 2.1 specs, after all, AMD laid the groundwork with their vendor specific HDMI2.0 extension. If anything, vendor specific extensions function to propel the underlying standards forward. And with each [VESA] revision, the standards incorporate more and more of the features that were previously implemented in the vendor specific extensions.

Seeing as GSync is still(?) limited to VRR over DP, VRR over HDMI was clearly a marketing token that AMD deemed beneficial to their business growth. Especially since very few TVs have DP, and AMD is in all the consoles. We can see the fruits of that labor paying off now.

As long as a vendor specific extension doesn't lock a competitor out of the base functionality of a display, I see no real reason to worry about whose extension is better (AMD/Nvidia) if they can both co-exist inside the same monitor. Furthermore, competition accelerates innovation.
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Ryu Connor
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Re: Samsung FreeSync TVs in 2018

Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:35 pm

DPete27 wrote:
I still can't find anything that says there is special/proprietary hardware inside every FreeSync display though. Also, how are vendor-specific HDMI extensions handled?


There has to be logic in the controller for VRR and custom HDMI extensions (firmware) of the monitor used to enumerate functionality.

We only know a few details about that custom hardware. We know that HDMI and DisplayPort are electrically different signaling methods and have different enumeration properties. We know the HDMI FreeSync specification isn't public, which is telling. We know that the HDMI FreeSync standard is different and incompatible with the HDMI VRR 2.1 hardware. We really know nothing about the corresponding register or registers enabled in the controller to turn on the VRR or the supporting logic for that VRR. People assume it's VESA VRR logic being enabled, but there is no proof of that, AMD has never claimed that, and frankly even if it were it doesn't really fix things. Software copyrights and patents are a thing.

Are they part of the firmware data for the display?


Yes, they would be, but their function is to manipulate hardware registers and enable functionality in the hardware itself. HDMI did not have hardware VRR logic when FreeSync HDMI came into existence, AMD had to create that themselves. As noted above we only know a few details about that logic. HDMI has since created VRR as part of their 2.1 specification and as noted, that 2.1 VRR does not use the FreeSync HDMI vendor-specific enumeration or the hardware logic AMD built. The Samsung TV in the opening post has two different VRR standards built into the controller and firmware.

Does a VESA Adaptive Sync display with FreeSync HDMI extensions then lock Nvidia out of using VESA Adaptive Sync in that display? What about Display Port?


This question is confusing in its phrasing. I think I know what you're asking. I guess we'll find out.

The Assumptions:
A hypothetical monitor has a controller and supporting firmware that speaks the VESA DisplayPort and the HDMI language. (These are two different languages).
That hypothetical monitor also has the accompanying logic for VESA VRR ("FreeSync") and AMD HDMI FreeSync.
That hypothetical monitor also has a physical connection for DisplayPort and HDMI.
What can NVIDIA do in that situation?

NVIDIA only has one option in that situation, to implement the optional hardware and firmware support for DisplayPort VESA VRR into their cards. That would allow for VESA VRR to function over the DisplayPort. NVIDIA cannot take advantage of the proprietary AMD HDMI FreeSync logic available on the HDMI port.

Keep in mind that it would take more than just hardware and firmware support for VESA VRR in NVIDIA cards. VESA VRR was not built with gaming in mind. LFC is not part of the VESA VRR standard and this functionality would also have to be built by NVIDIA into their driver suite. The GSync module with its CPU and RAM are a hardware solution that has reduced the software management side for NVIDIA.

We'll ignore NVIDIA eDP laptops for now, just to keep the conversation from ballooning, but recognize there's some sort of sauce over there.

Samsung confirmed to us that some of its 2018 TVs will support HDMI 2.1’s VRR (variable refresh rate) as well as FreeSync at up to 120Hz. What do you make of that? Since HDMI 2.1 spec contains VRR, does that do away with the need for AMDs vendor specific HDMI extensions? It sounded from the 2015 TR article linked above that AMD fully anticipated the need for their HDMI extensions to become obsolete as soon as the HDMI spec included VRR.


In premise, yes. HDMI 2.1 VRR means that NVIDIA now has access to an HDMI VRR solution. Now it's just a matter of timing (did the standard finalize in time for their next GPU) and business goals (do they want to support it). We don't know the answer to either of those questions.

In premise that means that AMDs VRR solution could go away, except there's an entire ecosystem of support for HDMI FreeSync. AMD cards and AMD-powered consoles also can't do HDMI VRR yet either. Those cards can do HDMI FreeSync and their is already an installed base of monitors and TVs supporting that proprietary standard. It could take years before HDMI FreeSync exits the market and who knows, standards are funny, HDMI FreeSync may continue to linger longer than any of us expect.
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