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DancinJack
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:39 am

Milo Burke wrote:
In other news, I've read that when the new Dell Ultrasharp OLED has a black background, the blacks are so deep it looks like the monitor is off.


Nothing to do with Dell, that's OLED for you.
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Milo Burke
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:52 am

DancinJack wrote:
Nothing to do with Dell, that's OLED for you.


Doesn't mean it isn't cool. :)
 
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:33 am

Milo Burke wrote:
DancinJack wrote:
Nothing to do with Dell, that's OLED for you.


Doesn't mean it isn't cool. :)


OLEDs have perfect black uniformity, infinite contrast & almost perfect color reproduction, that means any OLED TV is going to amaze you with picture quality. Ofcourse ghosting, refresh rate, input lag, panel life & power consumption depends upon manufacturer.
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Milo Burke
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:29 pm

I'm still not seeing any news posts referencing UHD and Redbox. You guys?
 
Milo Burke
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:15 pm

Pagey, maybe this is the TV you're looking for?

http://4k.com/news/a-closer-peek-at-his ... 400-11910/

Smallest model is 43" diagonal. It's got HDR, but not sure about WCG.
 
southrncomfortjm
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:59 pm

Jigar wrote:
Milo Burke wrote:
DancinJack wrote:
Nothing to do with Dell, that's OLED for you.


Doesn't mean it isn't cool. :)


OLEDs have perfect black uniformity, infinite contrast & almost perfect color reproduction, that means any OLED TV is going to amaze you with picture quality. Ofcourse ghosting, refresh rate, input lag, panel life & power consumption depends upon manufacturer.


I can't help but stare at OLEDs every time I see one. This may be the year I spring for a 60-65 inch one since it seems like the standards are locked down and TVs now have Hdmi 2.0 *and* HDCP 2.2 ready to go. I will be pushed to buying an OLED for sure if my 9 year old 46inch Samsung living room TV dies on me. It's been having fits lately, so I think it's trying to go into retirement. If it dies, my 60 inch 1080p LG goes to the living room and I get that 60inch LG OLED for the basement.

The thing I love most about OLED is that it looks so realistic, people thing even the 2 year old 1080p one from LG is 4K.
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localhostrulez
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:07 pm

Milo Burke wrote:
In other news, I've read that when the new Dell Ultrasharp OLED has a black background, the blacks are so deep it looks like the monitor is off.

I mean, it basically is - that's how AMOLED/OLED works.

I love my IPS displays, but backlight bleed on the Windows boot screen (black background) is usually a noticeable problem. That OLED ultrasharp ought to be good, assuming the wear I had on my AMOLED galaxy nexus isn't an issue with it. The newer OLED screen on my Moto X has been fine so far, so that's a good sign.
 
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:34 pm

Since there's no backlight in an OLED display, then yeah that is pretty much how it works. My next TV will probably be an OLED, and it'll probably be 1080p instead of 4k. My current one is 8 years old now, so I'm thinking it'll soon be time for an upgrade.
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:24 am

There's several reports floating around that image retention is an issue on OLED monitors tho - Which I was quite surprised to see, and apparently isn't a problem on phones that use them.

I'm all for an OLED screen (and at 4K - They look amazing), but we've not had to deal with that problem since the CRT days unless I'm missing something?
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Sat Jan 23, 2016 11:20 am

I wish OLED monitors were cheap and out now. I hate colour shift so I don't like TN/VA and such....but I hate grey blacks too so IPS also has negative things about it. I'd say CRTs are great because they don't have that problem, but the flickering really bothers me. Same with plasma.

OLED might be the first display tech that I don't have a problem with. Looking forward to it.
 
credible
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:08 pm

I'll be honest and admit I have not read much about this, nor do i really care to be honest as whats out there is fine by me for now but I have to wonder how this is going to work as well because most cable companies, if not all, do not give us true HD as it is, how on earth are they going to get 4k to homes especially if and when a majority decide to use it.
 
Lordhawkwind
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:21 pm

IMHO 4k is still way off becoming main stream. For a PC you currently need dual GPU's for decent frame rates and both SLI and Xfire are riddled with issues making game play very poor. As regards TV's it's not a big enough step up from 1080p for people to really notice and want to pay the premium price. As there is currently no real content it's a waste of time anyway, much like 3D.

They're already testing 5K & 8K so that might make a difference in a few years. A bit like VR really. That will take another 5+ years to possibly take off if ever.
 
Airmantharp
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:32 pm

Lordhawkwind wrote:
IMHO 4k is still way off becoming main stream. For a PC you currently need dual GPU's for decent frame rates and both SLI and Xfire are riddled with issues making game play very poor.


This may still be true for Crossfire (or not), as it was certainly true for my pair of HD6950's, but it isn't true for Nvidia. Ran GTX670 SLi previously and running GTX970 SLi now, and literally the only differences are faster framerates and more heat ;).
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kamikaziechameleon
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:50 pm

I'm amazed how much Blur ray is lagging from a production side. HDMI 2.0 is barely on any 4K TV on the shelf this past fall. Simply amazing. Beyond that no Stereo receivers have it still. Forget content, who cares about content when the hardware can't even drive a proper 4K signal. What a joke. Also Display port is not being widely enough adapted, so I can't short cut with a 40" 4K tv for the desktop... so annoying.

I have seen the light, I've seen how different games and movies look at 4K and its crazy different IMHO weather on a 27" pc monitor or on a 80" LCD panel. But the most annoying thing is the bad bill of goods the average 4K adopter is getting right now.
 
kamikaziechameleon
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:53 am

Guys, 5K 21:9 TV sets and Monitors!!! Can't wait for those to become a thing. :) A 40" monitor of that would be great!!! Not sold on the 34" monitors, they are still a bit small for me. I feel like 4K needs to be on a larger format to really be useful, I like to sit back from the panel more than the average person.
 
Milo Burke
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:06 am

Distance from screen and screen size has all been covered. It doesn't make a difference if the two scale together: it just matters how much of your field of vision is covered by the screen. That, and your eyesight.

I hear some Best Buys are now shipping UHD Blu-ray players, and a very small selection of UHD Blu-ray discs. That's something.

I really do feel bad for all the people who bought early 4k TVs, though. Sure, they can finally get some use out of that resolution, but they're missing out on 10-bit color, HDR, WCG, etc.


Any news on when we'll get receivers that can throughput all the goodness? Or is that much less of an issue than players and displays?
 
Pagey
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:18 am

AVS Forum has a good post on Dish's exhibit at CES 2016. http://www.avsforum.com/forum/286-lates ... 016-a.html The comments therein might give you some insight as to where the receiver industry, in general, is as with 4K, even though the video and thread are Dish-oriented.
 
Pagey
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:20 am

Milo Burke wrote:

I really do feel bad for all the people who bought early 4k TVs, though. Sure, they can finally get some use out of that resolution, but they're missing out on 10-bit color, HDR, WCG, etc.



This. I thank those folks, as their early-adopter nature will fund the next round of products, but unless they bought high end Samsung or Sony last year (Samsung SUHD series; Sony 850 and up series), all they bought were "more pixels" and not "better pixels". I'm hoping this year will be the year that all 3 features (resolution, HDR, and WCG) trickle down to the mid-range tier of displays from reliable manufacturers.
 
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:11 pm

A whole page without talking about Rec2020 and HDR, and even no mention of improved black levels which is pretty damn important, in my mind. That is progress for this thread :)
Anyway - I've finally seen/tried (through work ofc, I'm not dumb enough to waste my own money) all the 4K screen types worth considering:

Large format OLED TV
Large format VA TV
Small format VA monitor
Small format TN monitor
Small format IPS monitor

From what I can tell, they're all a sham. Maybe the 4K VA monitor looks worthwhile, because for games it offers contrast and sharpness that nothing else can match.

But generally, I say it's a sham because for the large format stuff, you have to get so close to the TV to see the extra pixels that you're literally too close to see the whole TV; Sitting at arms length from an 80" screen is utterly pointless, and at a more comfortable distance of ten feet or something it's really hard to see the extra clarity. Movies and TV content are already antialisaed by a factor of infinity because of the way it's captured, so seeing a pixel or aliasing artifact is already almost impossible. OLED looks nice but you have to be sitting off-angle in a pitch black room to really notice the benefits.

As for the small-format stuff, 2560x1440 is already pretty damn sharp at 27" and at 24" you're going to be all squinty unless you make use of DPI scaling in your OS which (whether you agree with me or not) is still an undisputed mess. 4K is 50% more pixels again. 50% more squinting. 50% more DPI scaling mess.125% more bandwidth needed, 125% more GPU power needed.

And here's the kicker (for gaming): You can use 4K monitors with or without AA and your brain STILL notices texture shimmer and pixel crawl despite the resolution. It's like running certain types of AA on a lower-res screen. There comes a point when the GPU horsepower is wasted if you use it to increase resolution because the real issue is about making more efficient use of the ample pixels you already have. Even if you don't have a 4K monitor, the effects of aliasing are still prevalent even with DSR added to the in-game FXAA or whatever it uses.

So, gaming suffers from bandwidth issues, framerate issues and all kinds of cost issues to get to 4K and you still fail to eliminate jaggies in any meaningful way. Sure, it's a little bit better, but *barely* worth the performance/cost/implementation headaches and whatever it was that annoyed you at 1080p or 1440p will still be there at some level when you run it at 4K.

What about 4K native content, you may ask?
Well, it doesn't exist yet - as far as I'm concerned. All the 4K content I've ever seen from Youtube, broadcast etc is full of compression artifacts. Even H265 content at 4K shows compression artifacts enough for you to notice - and lets face it - if you're the sort of person who can notice the sharpness difference between native 1080p at sofa distance and 4K at sofa distance, you're REALLY going to notice the compression artifacts. They're like an order of magnitude more obvious. So, once again - the extra bandwidth and effort and decoding power needed for 4K is wasted because the real issue is about making more efficient use of the ample pixels you already have.

Until the industry can provide a lossless compression at 1080p, extra pixels are just added hassle and complexity for no real world gain.
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Airmantharp
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:26 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
From what I can tell, they're all a sham. Maybe the 4K VA monitor looks worthwhile, because for games it offers contrast and sharpness that nothing else can match.


And then you either have input lag from pre-charging, or you have smearing from slow transitions... OLED, 4k or not, seems to be the way to go here.

Chrispy_ wrote:
And here's the kicker (for gaming): You can use 4K monitors with or without AA and your brain STILL notices texture shimmer and pixel crawl despite the resolution. It's like running certain types of AA on a lower-res screen. There comes a point when the GPU horsepower is wasted if you use it to increase resolution because the real issue is about making more efficient use of the ample pixels you already have. Even if you don't have a 4K monitor, the effects of aliasing are still prevalent even with DSR added to the in-game FXAA or whatever it uses.


For gaming, higher resolution without artifact reduction is still a plus if view distance is a 'thing'; playing shooters wound me up with my 30" IPS a few years back literally for the extra detail on distant objects, aliasing and pixel crawling be damned.

Overall, we're not even close. We don't yet have the GPU power to reasonably push 8.3MP, let alone increasing graphical requirements on future titles that will make each of those pixels even harder to render, and we don't have decent 4k media sources (minus a small and slowly growing 4k Blu-ray library).
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Pagey
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:13 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
A whole page without talking about Rec2020 and HDR, and even no mention of improved black levels which is pretty damn important, in my mind. That is progress for this thread :)
Anyway - I've finally seen/tried (through work ofc, I'm not dumb enough to waste my own money) all the 4K screen types worth considering:

Large format OLED TV
Large format VA TV
Small format VA monitor
Small format TN monitor
Small format IPS monitor

From what I can tell, they're all a sham. Maybe the 4K VA monitor looks worthwhile, because for games it offers contrast and sharpness that nothing else can match.

What about 4K native content, you may ask?
Well, it doesn't exist yet - as far as I'm concerned. All the 4K content I've ever seen from Youtube, broadcast etc is full of compression artifacts. Even H265 content at 4K shows compression artifacts enough for you to notice - and lets face it - if you're the sort of person who can notice the sharpness difference between native 1080p at sofa distance and 4K at sofa distance, you're REALLY going to notice the compression artifacts. They're like an order of magnitude more obvious. So, once again - the extra bandwidth and effort and decoding power needed for 4K is wasted because the real issue is about making more efficient use of the ample pixels you already have.

Until the industry can provide a lossless compression at 1080p, extra pixels are just added hassle and complexity for no real world gain.


When the prices on OLED come down a little further, I would consider one as a "home theater room" purchase. I don't think I'd use one for just watching "broadcast" (IP TV in my case) stuff. I have seen several 4K TVs on display, but none that offer WCG and/or HDR.

It is interesting to note that of the 4K UHD Blu-ray releases scheduled for March 1st, most of them have 2K Digital Intermediates (DI)...if IMDB is to be believed in the "technical" link on each movie. If the studios are in fact simply upscaling a 2K DI to 4K, I am not sure how much this benefits the end user. All the top tier sets (Sony, Samsung) have great 4K upscalers in them already...and a 2K DI is not much larger than a 1920x1080 Blu-ray. Now, for stuff captured with 5K or 4K RAW (or whatever the camera's native "RAW" format), I can see the studio doing a new, true 4K DI/remaster and also adding the HDR meta-data and the higher bit-depth color.

Sadly, a lot of stuff will probably never see a true 4K release, as the technology at the time limited the material to a 2K DI (see The Lord of the Rings, for example).
 
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:50 am

Yeah, I'm still a little worried about OLED.

They're amazing when they're new but I'm on my third OLED phone now; Of the first two (one personal and one for work) both suffered from burn-in and yellowing over time as the blue diodes wore out faster than the R and G ones. Given how I used my phone far less than I'd use a television or a monitor, it doesn't bode well. We're still obviously stuck with the main problem that was holding back OLED in the market 10+ years ago, namely the blue diodes wear out prematurely :(

I've not (knowingly) seen a quantum dot display yet. I'll have to make an effort next trade show....
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Pagey
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:07 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
Yeah, I'm still a little worried about OLED.

They're amazing when they're new but I'm on my third OLED phone now; Of the first two (one personal and one for work) both suffered from burn-in and yellowing over time as the blue diodes wore out faster than the R and G ones. Given how I used my phone far less than I'd use a television or a monitor, it doesn't bode well. We're still obviously stuck with the main problem that was holding back OLED in the market 10+ years ago, namely the blue diodes wear out prematurely :(

I've not (knowingly) seen a quantum dot display yet. I'll have to make an effort next trade show....


This is what stops me from buying into OLED at the current price point. Don't get me wrong. Prices have dropped substantially since LG introduced them (e.g., $15,000 down to about $1,800 for entry level 1080p stuff). But, still, when I can pick up a perfectly capable $400 Sony LED LCD TV which I can configure to BT.709 in 15 minutes and start enjoying fabulous, current Blu-ray content...you're going to have to prove your technology's longevity to me before I invest nearly $2,000 in a display device which I will ONLY use for movies on shiny discs.
 
kamikaziechameleon
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:59 am

4K is pretty awesome if you've seen it running the right game. Its great. Dota 2 is a great example, highly recommend it.
 
kamikaziechameleon
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:25 am

This was a sweet option:

http://techreport.com/news/29793/acer-x ... b7f815d2#0

Then I saw this finally dropped:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/3018710/ ... ezels.html

WOW!

As IPS replaces TN and OLED shifts to become the new IPS it will be interesting to see what happens. In the 30-40" market (were I think the average consumer lives) I'm eager to see mixups of the 21:9 ultra wide, 4k, 5k, OLED, IPS, G-Sync etc. So exciting.
 
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:58 am

southrncomfortjm wrote:
I can't help but stare at OLEDs every time I see one. This may be the year I spring for a 60-65 inch one since it seems like the standards are locked down and TVs now have Hdmi 2.0 *and* HDCP 2.2 ready to go. I will be pushed to buying an OLED for sure if my 9 year old 46inch Samsung living room TV dies on me. It's been having fits lately, so I think it's trying to go into retirement. If it dies, my 60 inch 1080p LG goes to the living room and I get that 60inch LG OLED for the basement.

The thing I love most about OLED is that it looks so realistic, people thing even the 2 year old 1080p one from LG is 4K.


Agreed, my LED is now 5 years old but I will hold my next purchase till OLED's are affordable. I just can't think myself getting a LED TV again, its going to be OLED TV or nothing.
Image
 
localhostrulez
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:33 am

A random thought I had, going back to the 4K bit... download Big Buck Bunny (https://peach.blender.org/) in 4K 60fps, and see how well your machine can do it. I'm especially curious about laptops - my desktop (HP 8200/i5 2400/GT730/16GB/Win7) uses about half the CPU and half the GPU, but does it smoothly in MPC-HC. (Yeah, I know most of you have actual gaming GPUs. :wink:) It's almost unreal having animation at 60fps - it almost feels a bit unnatural (because I'm so used to choppy motion/unevenly divided 24fps). Kinda cool (though it's on a 2560x1600 monitor). WMP doesn't recognize the codec, VLC and Firefox are choppy, and Chrome lags a bit.

My laptop, on the other hand (HP Zbook 14g1/i5 4300U/12GB/Win7/switchable M4100/1080p) can't do it at all, whether I use the dGPU or IGP. (Funny enough, the AMD software refuses to run the media player on the GPU unless you rename the exe, which I did to fool it.) Just goes to show what decent software and a faster CPU can do. Just goes to show that a good 'ol Sandy Bridge CPU still packs a good punch compared to a Haswell ULV (power consumption, not so much).
 
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:18 am

From DP website: Will DisplayPort 1.3 enable further performance enhancements to 4K UHD displays?

Yes, when including the new HBR3 link rate option, DisplayPort 1.3 will enable a 4K UHD display to operate at a 120Hz refresh rate using 24-bit pixels, or a 96Hz refresh rate using 30-bit pixels.

...
You need DP 1.3 to get 10 bit color support. Display port 1.4 does not change any physical characteristics.

DP 1.4 adds support for Rec 2020 color space. DP 1.4 screens wont be ready for a while.

From AMD Reddit AMA: Will the cards come with DP1.4?

They will come with DP1.3. There is a 12-18 month lag time between the final ratification of a display spec and the design/manufacture/testing of silicon compliant with that spec. This is true at all levels of the display industry. For example: DP 1.3 was finished in September, 2014.

...

HDMI 2.0 adds Rec 2020 support, HDMI 2.0a adds HDR support but it does not have the bandwidth beyond 4k@30/10 bit w/o tricks.



TL;DR:
HDMI 2.0a gets you access to the new colors for movie viewing rates.
DP 1.3 gets you bandwidth for gaming but not Rec 2020 color space.
 
Chrispy_
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:51 am

Had a play with 5K the other day; If the jump from 2560 to 4K seemed ridiculous at 27", the jump to 5K at 27" is just a waste of pixels.

Naturally, all I could see was that my framerate took yet another massive nosedive for no appreciable gain in image quality. Admittedly I don't play DOTA2 but for the most part games just aren't made with that resolution in mind. As with OS GUI scaling issues, a lot of modern-games are raster based so they either scale badly or don't scale which makes them unusably tiny
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:39 am

blahsaysblah wrote:
From DP website: Will DisplayPort 1.3 enable further performance enhancements to 4K UHD displays?

Yes, when including the new HBR3 link rate option, DisplayPort 1.3 will enable a 4K UHD display to operate at a 120Hz refresh rate using 24-bit pixels, or a 96Hz refresh rate using 30-bit pixels.

...
You need DP 1.3 to get 10 bit color support. Display port 1.4 does not change any physical characteristics.

DP 1.4 adds support for Rec 2020 color space. DP 1.4 screens wont be ready for a while.

From AMD Reddit AMA: Will the cards come with DP1.4?

They will come with DP1.3. There is a 12-18 month lag time between the final ratification of a display spec and the design/manufacture/testing of silicon compliant with that spec. This is true at all levels of the display industry. For example: DP 1.3 was finished in September, 2014.

...

HDMI 2.0 adds Rec 2020 support, HDMI 2.0a adds HDR support but it does not have the bandwidth beyond 4k@30/10 bit w/o tricks.



TL;DR:
HDMI 2.0a gets you access to the new colors for movie viewing rates.
DP 1.3 gets you bandwidth for gaming but not Rec 2020 color space.


Assuming that GPU power scales up enough, I might jump on the 4K hype train once DP 1.4 monitors ship to be able to have 4K 120Hz HDR

http://techreport.com/news/29790/vesa-r ... 4-standard
i7-8700k, Custom Water Loop | ASRock Fatal1ty Gaming K6 | 16GB DDR4 3200 CL16
GTX 1080 | BenQ 24" 120Hz | 2x Samsung 840 250GB | 2x2TB HDKPC09 | Win 10 Pro x64
X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro | Sennheiser HD555 | Seasonic SSR-850FX | Fractal Arc Midi R2
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