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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:28 am

I thought mine was defective as well, but lowered voltage and a good cooler was the solution. You experience instability when lowering voltages, I had some of that too, but partly it came from the extreme temps the cpu was dealing with. Now it is stable at a voltage it wasn't when reaching 100C. Honestly your cooler looks too small. Sadly this cpu produces way more heat than the claimed 65Wtdp indicates. By the way, mine also showes 120w turbo boost short power max in intel extreme tuning utility and 95W turbo boost power max.
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:02 am

Thanks for the details. As long as the CPU stay below 80 in stress test, I think the cooler is fine. However why a 65w TDP CPU needed so much power or powerful CPU coolers is my point. That is why I buy 8700 instead of 8700K. From all I found so far, my 8700 is using even more power than 8700K. I need an answer to this from either ASRock or Intel.

Is the 95w limit from your AUTO bios setting or default value there?

My short term limit shows as 140w when AUTO PL2 in bios.

If I use AUTO for PL1, both are shown as 120W in intel extreme utility.

This high TDP does not make any sense to me. Even if I can use a monster cooler to cool it, it doesn’t mean it meets the specification.
 
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:03 pm

flyxman007 wrote:
HERETIC wrote:
Leave your RAM voltage on AUTO for now.
Experiment with lowering your POWER LIMIT.


Thanks. i tried that with no luck. limit the power limit 1 to 65 W, leave ram AUTO, the max TDP is capped to 65w and power liimit hit is reported. whatever power limit I set, it will hit that when running intel extreme utility to stress the CPU. The core frequency dropped by a lot.

another people's 8700 is just using 77 TDP at max.

i tried voltage 1.285, ran aida 64, system froze.

There isnot many things i can chaning in bios. i think i have tried all the poosible choice i can think of now.

i am seriously suspecting my i7-8700 is defective. I will see what Intel will say. I am going to contact ASRock raegarding this too. Howevrer, it looks like either get replacement or switch to AMD platform such as 1700.

i am using low profile Noctua L9i CPU Cooler with a case fan to cool thr CPU. it is capble to keep it under 80 in Aida64 test if i set the power limit 1 to 95w, and keep the pc quiet. this 8700 is more like a 8700k in terms of power consumption to me.


The "problem" is almost certainly with your choice of CPU cooler.

The list of disclaimers and comments published by Noctua regarding this cooler is pretty scary:

https://noctua.at/en/nh_l9i_tdp_guidelines

I would give serious consideration to switching to a different cooler, if the physical dimensions of your case etc permit. If you go to Asrock or Intel and say "I'm using this cooler, which has this list of caveats and disclaimers attached to it", they'll point to that and say that's the problem. Even Noctua themselves say that the cooler is only usable on 65w TDP chips on four assumptions:
    That you're using the supplied fan (you said you're using a case fan rather than Noctua's fan)
    Allowing the supplied fan to run at 100% under PWM control where necessary.
    Have a well ventilated case.
    Have a 25c or lower ambient.
... and that any deviations from this ideal set of conditions means you should chose a lower TDP CPU.

Intel and Asrock will almost certainly say the solution is working as intended (throttling back at high temperatures under high artificial/benchmark load) under the thermal conditions the chip finds itself in. If you read up on TDP (even on something as basic as Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_design_power) you'll see such statements as:

"The TDP is typically not the largest amount of heat the CPU could ever generate (peak power), such as by running a power virus..."
"Some sources state that the peak power for a microprocessor is usually 1.5 times the TDP rating."

Just food for thought. It does sound to me like you're expecting to cool a modern hex-core, dodeca-threaded CPU under a heavy artificial benchmark load with a very marginal cooler and wondering why it's struggling. I mean it's not crashing, it's limiting itself because you've put an insufficient cooler on it, ultimately.
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:27 pm

Yeah, that's an awfully small cooler for such a CPU. It's probably less effective than Intel's stock HSF.
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:07 pm

bthylafh wrote:
Yeah, that's an awfully small cooler for such a CPU. It's probably less effective than Intel's stock HSF.

I agree the cooler is a problem. That cooler looks like it is right at the hairy edge of its capabilities with a 65W TDP CPU, and if ambient temps creep up during the summer you're going to be in even more trouble.
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:40 pm

Thanks Mentawl!

I am trying to understand what it should be and what I should expect.

My point is more should an i7-8700 use 117W package TDP when running intel Extreme Utility to stress test the CPU given PL1 is auto set to 120W?

Is more powerful CPU cooler lowering the max power consumption too? Thus powerful cooler cools the CPU more, at the same time, it means the CPU uses less power.

Mentawl wrote:
https://noctua.at/en/nh_l9i_tdp_guidelines

I would give serious consideration to switching to a different cooler, if the physical dimensions of your case etc permit. If you go to Asrock or Intel and say "I'm using this cooler, which has this list of caveats and disclaimers attached to it", they'll point to that and say that's the problem. Even Noctua themselves say that the cooler is only usable on 65w TDP chips on four assumptions:
    That you're using the supplied fan (you said you're using a case fan rather than Noctua's fan)
    Allowing the supplied fan to run at 100% under PWM control where necessary.
    Have a well ventilated case.
    Have a 25c or lower ambient.
... and that any deviations from this ideal set of conditions means you should chose a lower TDP CPU.


I believe any CPU cooler will have some conditions like that.

- I am using the orignal heatsink plus the original fan, additionally, I am using another case fan over it to help.
- I am allowing the fan to go 100% when CPU temp goes over 78C. It stays mostly around 77C when running aida64 stress test. For Intel test, it stays under 76 as far as I remember.
- my ambinent is around 18-19C.
- well, it is ventilated.

I am expecting my setup to cool a 65W TDP CPU not a 95W TDP CPU, or now a CPU using 117W. It is capble to cool the CPU under 80 when aid64 test, with P1 set to 95W, but not so good when AUTO settings which set the P1 to 120W.

Therefore I feel my CPU cooling setup is doing its job as it should be, the CPU itself is using too much power, thus producing too much heat. That is why I am blaming the CPU / motherboard, not my CPU cooling. This is my logic there.
 
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:27 pm

Your CPU cooling setup is indeed doing the job it's supposed to do - the CPU isn't melting into a heap under load. Thanks for clarifying your setup, there hasn't been much detail of it. However I stand by my previous comments regarding your heatsink being inappropriate for the load you're putting it under.

TDP is an icky (technical term) measure of thermal output from a CPU, and Intel are as guilty as anyone else of fudging numbers to look good. If you check Intel's product page for the 8700:

https://ark.intel.com/products/126686/I ... o-4_60-GHz

and click on ? next to TDP, you will see the following description:
"Thermal Design Power (TDP) represents the average power, in watts, the processor dissipates when operating at Base Frequency with all cores active under an Intel-defined, high-complexity workload. Refer to Datasheet for thermal solution requirements."

So basically, 65w is an average if you had all 6 cores loaded up at just 3.2ghz (base freq for an 8700), and does not take into account things like Turbo boost (which takes cores above Base Frequency) nor is it likely that their testing involves using a "power virus" type test as previously mentioned (things like Prime95 and IntelBurnTest fall into this category). It should thus be taken as an best guesstimate of heat output under reasonable standard load conditions, not a maximum under artificial load nor a minimum.

Your CPU cooler is barely capable of cooling a 65w CPU under ideal conditions, as the Noctua page I linked indicates. It will manage to cool an 8700 under non-power-virus type tests, but it is likely that the CPU will still throttle under sustained heavy loads (Handbrake encoding or such). This is per design - Intel wouldn't use use phrases like Turbo Boost if they could have all the cores in an 8700 running at 4.6ghz under load in under 65w - they'd sell it like that! Instead Turbo Boost should be seen as what it is - a boost in performance if the power and heat circumstances that the CPU finds itself in are suitable. From Intel's Datasheet for the 8th Gen CPUs (https://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/ ... vol-1.html) :

"Intel Turbo Boost Technology 2.0 allows processor IA cores to run faster than the base frequency. It is invoked opportunistically and automatically as long as the processor is conforming to its temperature, voltage, power delivery and current control limits"

You are providing an environment that is not suitable for Turbo Boost to do its job, as you have provided the CPU with a very marginal cooling solution. As such the CPU is lowering its maximum frequency to limit package thermals/power consumption under your artificially high load - though I note you were still getting above-base-clock speeds, so it was trying its best to deliver Turbo speeds despite your poor cooling solution. Voltages as well as power/current limits also are set by the motherboard generally, not the CPU - motherboard manufacturers seem to have gotten more liberal with the voltages/power limits they're feeding to CPUs in recent years, which again breaks the Intel spec and takes you above the marketed TDP. Who knows how XTU purports to measure package power etc when every motherboard supplies differing values/LLC/etc to the CPU.

Your CPU is not faulty, nor is your motherboard. You are assuming that a heatsink marketed as "65w capable" under ideal conditions is able to keep up with a very fast/high core count CPU with a multitude of technologies designed to give the user as much power as possible under any given thermal and power conditions, and your conditions are not the same as Intel uses to carry out their TDP estimates.

Please, for the sake of your CPU, buy a better heatsink :) your PC will thank you and you'll likely get more out your CPU.
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:45 pm

Thank you very much for that long reply. If it is the problem with the CPU cooler indeed, I am happy to limit PL1 to 95W or keep 1.300v and LLC 4. The latter seems to be better, it still gives 1360 in Cenebench while the former gives 1250. For normal use, it doesn't give any problem.

I am still not sure about that. I am not expecting it use 65W when running at 4.6Hz, but I am not expecting it use 117W either.
Mentawl wrote:
Intel's Datasheet for the 8th Gen CPUs (https://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/ ... vol-1.html) :

In that document, page 81, it says PL1 should be TDP though. However Intel extreme utility use that's as max turbo boost power limit. That conflicts each other.

Here is what core temp shows when I stress test the CPU with Intel Extreme utillity, vcore voltage 1.300, LLC set to 4, the rest AUTO in BIOS. The max package power reported in Intel is 105W though.


https://imgur.com/E6s6e11

Here when everything is set to AUTO in bios including voltage, LLC.
https://imgur.com/b2Clak9
 
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:07 pm

flyxman007 wrote:
I am still not sure about that. I am not expecting it use 65W when running at 4.6Hz, but I am not expecting it use 117W either.

And you are still 100% missing the point. You're fixated on the 65W TDP rating and your concomitant belief that you have enough HSF. You're wrong on both counts.

If you need to keep the HSF for space purposes, back down to a CPU with a nominal 45W rating. If you persist in pushing your "65W" CPU to its limits, for Bob's sake go get a proper heatsink and use the fan that's recommended. FWIW, I can keep an "88W" 4790K quite cool with a decade-old Thermalright Ultra-120 Extreme and a yum-cha 120mm PWM fan.
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:27 pm

AGAIN- TDP is an approximate of the power wasted by a CPU-converted in to heat.
NOT-TOTAL POWER USAGE..................

That voltage reading in CoreTemp is frightening and a CPU killer-hopefully it's reading something wrong.
Would certainly explain high power useage.

I hope after all this your not trying to run this beast of a CPU in some tiny under-ventilated case.................
good luck
 
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:55 pm

If you're not going to listen to our advice, what's the point of asking?
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:12 pm

HERETIC wrote:
AGAIN- TDP is an approximate of the power wasted by a CPU-converted in to heat.
NOT-TOTAL POWER USAGE..................

Umm... other than power used to drive the external interfaces (RAM and PCIe), all of the power consumed by the CPU is converted into heat that needs to be removed by the CPU HSF.
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:14 am

just brew it! wrote:
HERETIC wrote:
AGAIN- TDP is an approximate of the power wasted by a CPU-converted in to heat.
NOT-TOTAL POWER USAGE..................

Umm... other than power used to drive the external interfaces (RAM and PCIe), all of the power consumed by the CPU is converted into heat that needs to be removed by the CPU HSF.


No argument that the voltage drop across those millions/billions of transistors ends up as heat.
There are outputs through,and while links to SB and DVI/HDMI might not draw much-they do.
Perhaps a little pedantic,my point was TPU will always be more than TDP (waste power)
Could be a couple of Watts,could be several-perhaps some day someone will come up with a No.
 
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:20 am

HERETIC wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
HERETIC wrote:
AGAIN- TDP is an approximate of the power wasted by a CPU-converted in to heat.
NOT-TOTAL POWER USAGE..................

Umm... other than power used to drive the external interfaces (RAM and PCIe), all of the power consumed by the CPU is converted into heat that needs to be removed by the CPU HSF.


No argument that the voltage drop across those millions/billions of transistors ends up as heat.
There are outputs through,and while links to SB and DVI/HDMI might not draw much-they do.
Perhaps a little pedantic,my point was TPU will always be more than TDP (waste power)
Could be a couple of Watts,could be several-perhaps some day someone will come up with a No.


Meant to hit edit-
Anyway-back to the topic-What's your view on that 1.45Volts reading in CoreTemp?????
 
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:30 am

bthylafh wrote:
If you're not going to listen to our advice, what's the point of asking?


Frankly, I'm not sure what's the logic of using a low profile cooler on a full size ATX board. He could just have got a much beefier Cryorig H7 for cheaper.
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:03 pm

HERETIC wrote:
No argument that the voltage drop across those millions/billions of transistors ends up as heat.
Perhaps a little pedantic,my point was TPU will always be more than TDP (waste power)
Could be a couple of Watts,could be several-perhaps some day someone will come up with a No.

That's not how TDP is defined. TDP is a design guide of an "average maximum power"(*) for a CPU, or in other words, how much heat the cooling solution needs to remove to support a moderately strenuous, sustained workload while holding the CPU temperature at some reasonable threshold.

(*) And even then, Intel and AMD have different definitions...
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:01 pm

First of all, thanks to all the people here who have replied my questions here.

Before posting here / finding the high reported TDP number, I have tried three coolers and none of them gave me sigificant difference in terms of temperature.


I understand that the consensus here is my CPU cooler is not good enough. However, I am not going to replace CPU or the cooler, this is because:

- The machine works fine in normal use. The CPU temperature is under 80C as long as I set PL1 to 95W. It is between 50-75 C when I play very demanding game at 4K resolution with my 1080ti card. For everything else, it stays lower that. Aida64 test, it stay around 77C. As Lore posted, his PL1 is set to 95W too. I assume that is from the default settings of his BIOS. However my BIOS set that to 120W automatically. Most people here probably have overclocked CPUs and powerful CPU coolers keeping the CPU temperature under 65. In my case, sub 80 under stress test is fine. I can let the fan spin at 100% to reduce it further but I'd like to balance it with noise.

- My setup is ITX board in a HTPC case, I cannot use any AIO or beefy coolers.

- I noticed that CenebenchR15 score drop from 1350/200 to 1250/190 with the 95W limit. Since it is an HTPC, I am happy to accept that as long as the CPU is not defective.


Having said that, The reason I am concerning about the CPU is that the high TDP number. I still don't understand Why I saw other people's i7-8700 showing max TDP under 90W at full load while mine is at 120-130W? Will a beefy CPU cooler reduce that number for me to 90W?

I am not expecting my setup to handle 120-130W heat, that is why I didn't buy i7-8700k. For example, this picture from one online review of i7-8700k shows the i7-8700k reports max 130W package TDP when running at 5.11GHz, 95C, why my 8700 shows that too with cores run at 4.3Ghz at 76C
(from this page: http://www.legitreviews.com/intel-core- ... e_198473/3)
Image
 
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:20 pm

Well, I'm glad you consider it settled. As you can clearly observe by now, you are NOT cooling a 65W CPU. Neither am I when running a Ryzen 5 - the latest Ryzen 5 I installed is a 65W CPU, everything on Auto, no OC, and according to HWMonitor the CPU alone pulls 115W with uncore pushing it up to 120W. For the record, my Kaby Lake i5-7600K only sucked down 75W even when OC'd to 4.8GHz, but that's 4 cores, 4 threads, and never used the iGPU. It stands to reason that whether it's Intel or AMD, when you add half again the number of cores and triple the number of threads available, along with raising the amount of cache present, and upping base and turbo clocks, you have more to cool than you did before.

I understand you have a small case, but why did you select such a hot-spot CPU for such a small case, and then cool it with such small cooling? It's like you want it to throttle.

HERETIC has said it several times -- TDP means nothing anymore! That number does not matter to the end user. Look at the series the chip is from, consider the clock speeds you hope to run, and cool that.
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:07 pm

8700 and a 1080Ti in a HTPC case-without water.
YOU DO LIKE A CHALLENGE DON'T YOU.
My advice-downclock/undervolt both a LITTLE to match the case/cooling system you have---ENJOY.
Another option is to get a larger case..........

All silicon is a lottery-some chips are better than others........................
 
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:23 am

HERETIC wrote:
8700 and a 1080Ti in a HTPC case-without water.
YOU DO LIKE A CHALLENGE DON'T YOU.

Seems like a pretty basic setup to me - you just have to accept that high temperatures are the norm under heavy load. I have a (now outdated but still very useful) 2700K and GTX 780 in my HTPC. It's all but silent unless I crank up the GPU, but I expected high temps from the get-go.
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:45 pm

HERETIC wrote:
8700 and a 1080Ti in a HTPC case-without water.
YOU DO LIKE A CHALLENGE DON'T YOU.
My advice-downclock/undervolt both a LITTLE to match the case/cooling system you have---ENJOY.
Another option is to get a larger case..........

All silicon is a lottery-some chips are better than others........................


Yes, I limit the power to 95W for CPU. The 1080ti is fine, it stays under 75C at 99% load, fan spinning around 65%. I need it be small, quite but powerful. In case anyone is interested in, here is my build log.
https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/b/F3mqqs
 
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:54 pm

MOSFET wrote:
I understand you have a small case, but why did you select such a hot-spot CPU for such a small case, and then cool it with such small cooling? It's like you want it to throttle.

I selected it based on TDP figures on the specfication. Intel doesn't say it will produce more heat because of it is a morden CPU but just the TDP number and its performance. Anyway, it will be good to see it run with 120W power limit but 95W gives me the balance among performance, heat and noise in my case.
 
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:28 pm

curtisb wrote:
Heat pipes don't work that way. They are actually copper tubes (or pipes if you will) that have a liquid in them.


Wanted to post here to lol at this, then did some background reading and :o

HERETIC wrote:
8700 and a 1080Ti in a HTPC case-without water.
YOU DO LIKE A CHALLENGE DON'T YOU.


I'm in pretty much exactly the same situation, with an i7 8700k and GTX 970 in a mini ITX Lian Li case. I'm using a silverstone NT-06 cooler with the included fan, and the CPU temps hit 100ºC with Prime95. The system will shut itself down if I try to play the witcher or other demanding titles.

I already tried reducing the power limit in BIOS to no avail. I'll give it another shot and reseat the heatsink this evening, then start another thread if it doesn't work. Sounds like a PSA is in order for people trying to do SFF builds with 8xxx series parts (idiots).

Edit: grammar
 
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:47 pm

Atradeimos wrote:
curtisb wrote:
Heat pipes don't work that way. They are actually copper tubes (or pipes if you will) that have a liquid in them.

Wanted to post here to lol at this, then did some background reading and :o

They also contain a wick material which helps pull the condensed liquid back to the base of the HSF. Otherwise they'd only work when oriented with the CPU down (since the coolant would only be able to flow back by gravity).

It is basically a closed-loop heat pump which uses the energy of the heat you are trying to remove to drive the loop...
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:09 pm

just brew it! wrote:
It is basically a closed-loop heat pump which uses the energy of the heat you are trying to remove to drive the loop...


Seems like calling it "air cooling" is really underselling the whole thing.

Atradeimos wrote:
I'll give it another shot and reseat the heatsink this evening, then start another thread if it doesn't work.


Somewhere in this whole process my GTX 970 decided to stop powering up. The good news is there were four months left on the warranty, and MSI's customer support was surprisingly responsive.
 
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:46 pm

Atradeimos wrote:
Seems like calling it "air cooling" is really underselling the whole thing.


Heatpipes are also commonly used on spacecraft since they require no power to operate, very little or no maintenance, can transport heat long distances, and like JBI said do not require gravity to function properly(which is a definite plus when there isn't any). To my knowledge, nobody in marketing has ever played that up which has always kind of surprised me.

Hey guize! It's a heatsink with technology from outer space! :o
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:50 pm

Atradeimos wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
It is basically a closed-loop heat pump which uses the energy of the heat you are trying to remove to drive the loop...

Seems like calling it "air cooling" is really underselling the whole thing.

It's still "air cooling" from the user's perspective. It's a bunch of metal fins with a fan on it, with no external hoses.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

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