Personal computing discussed

Moderator: Starfalcon

 
synthtel2
Gold subscriber
Gerbil XP
Topic Author
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:30 am

PSA on fan control

Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:51 pm

A lot of CPU HSF arrangements don't have very good cooling returns on high fan speeds. SPCR's testing shows that pretty well. Their numbers on my HSF (the single-fan D9L) show sharply diminishing returns past ~60%, for the example I'm most familiar with. When I've run into noisy but otherwise well set up rigs, it has most often been either solvable with little thermal penalty by adjusting fan profiles to better match the performance of the heatsink or not solvable due to bad fan control options. YMMV of course, but a lot of rigs out there are noisier than they need to be, and I thought I'd give it a mention.

Before figuring this out, my fan control curves would generally resemble linear between idle and whatever max temp the mobo would allow, with optional curvature to represent noise versus temperature priorities. My standard template is now 30% at <5C over idle, 50% at 15C over idle, 70% at 10C below max, 100% at max (where max is either 90C or mobo-enforced max). The main problem with that is the sudden jump once it hits the ramp on the top end, which isn't ideal perceptually (but mobo makers could fix that).
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 48303
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: PSA on fan control

Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:20 am

The diminishing returns at high RPMs kind of makes sense; you're probably getting a lot more turbulence, which means the fan needs to work harder to push the air through the fins of the heatsink. The turbulence also means more noise.

Last week when I fired up the Folding@home client on my secondary system (FX-8320), the fan kept ramping all the way up and backing off again every few seconds, based on just a 1 or 2 degree temperature change. The sound of it constant ramping up/down was pretty annoying! Had to tweak the fan profile to prevent the constant shifts in fan speed...
If the world isn't making sense to you, you're either drinking too much or not drinking enough.
 
Heiwashin
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3944
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:21 pm
Location: Denham Springs, LA

Re: PSA on fan control

Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:16 am

You guys and your silence. My computer sounds like two hair dryers.:lol:
Looking for Knowledge wrote:
When drunk.....
I want to have sex, but find I am more likely to be shot down than when I am sober.
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 48303
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: PSA on fan control

Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:32 am

Heiwashin wrote:
You guys and your silence. My computer sounds like two hair dryers.:lol:

I can tolerate a steady drone. The problem I had with the previous fan control profile on my FX-8320 was that under load it would constantly ramp up and down as the CPU heated up, and the fan spooled up to full speed. At full speed the temps would quickly drop, causing the fan to slow down, and the cycle repeated endlessly.
If the world isn't making sense to you, you're either drinking too much or not drinking enough.
 
Chrispy_
Gold subscriber
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3926
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: Europe, most frequently London.

Re: PSA on fan control

Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:55 am

I actually set my fans curves with 60% as the upper limit. I'd rather my CPU throttled back the boost by a couple of bins than for it to make annoying noises.

In reality, on a stock-clocked Haswell, the 120mm Noctua cooler never gets much beyond 50% even with the GPU running too (it is a blower, mind you). Just remember that you don't have to cool beyond the rated TDP of the chip. They will boost higher if there's thermal and power headroom available, but if you don't provide the thermal headroom it will stick closer to base clocks for much lower noise levels.
Congratulations, you've noticed that this year's signature is based on outdated internet memes; CLICK HERE NOW to experience this unforgettable phenomenon. This sentence is just filler and as irrelevant as my signature.
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 48303
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: PSA on fan control

Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:22 am

Normally my fans idle along at around 40%. They only become noticeable when I'm using my PCs as space heaters running Folding@home or doing massive media encodes. The primary rig is acceptably quiet even with the fans ramped all the way up; it was really an issue only with the secondary rig, as it has a smaller (92mm) CPU fan that makes some noise at full throttle.
If the world isn't making sense to you, you're either drinking too much or not drinking enough.
 
Bauxite
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 705
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:10 pm
Location: electrolytic redox smelting plant

Re: PSA on fan control

Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:12 am

Main problems I see are people with bizzare/tiny/cramped cases with poor airflow makes everything work too hard to stay cool.

Cleaning up the rats nest and getting a case with some actual design behind it works wonders.
E5 1680v2 4.5Ghz - "Yes Virginia, they are unlocked"
E5 2696v4 Because Reasons™
 
Heiwashin
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3944
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:21 pm
Location: Denham Springs, LA

Re: PSA on fan control

Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:33 am

My problem is my favorite case fan is the vantec tornado. Some guys quick demo of them, https://youtu.be/hRTAU6T_RFY?t=1m2s .
Looking for Knowledge wrote:
When drunk.....
I want to have sex, but find I am more likely to be shot down than when I am sober.
 
SuperSpy
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2191
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 9:34 pm
Location: TR Forums

Re: PSA on fan control

Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:55 pm

I've found the best thing for airflow is finding a case with the largest-diameter fan ports possible. The difference between my old Chieftec and it's zillion 80mm fans and my new Fractal Design case and it's 140mm is astounding.

Currently my machine cycles between 'near silent' and 'almost hair dryer' but that's because I'm abusing the snot out of my CPU. I should probably tweak the fan profile a bit and see how much worse it performs.
Desktop: i7-4790K @4.8 GHz | 32 GB | XFX Radeon 6950 | Windows 10 x64
Laptop: i7 740QM | 12 GB | Mobility Radeon 5850 | Windows 10 x64
 
DPete27
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2983
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:50 pm
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Re: PSA on fan control

Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:19 pm

I've seen my fair share of behemoth cases with fans stuffed into every available mount running at full tilt because....?  EXTREME.....  :roll:
Main: i5-3570K, ASRock Z77 Pro4-M, MSI RX480 8G, 500GB Crucial BX100, 2 TB Samsung EcoGreen F4, 16GB 1600MHz G.Skill @1.25V, EVGA 550-G2, Silverstone PS07B
HTPC: A8-5600K, MSI FM2-A75IA-E53, 4TB Seagate SSHD, 8GB 1866MHz G.Skill, Crosley D-25 Case Mod
 
Noinoi
Gerbil First Class
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:31 pm
Location: Somewhere, anywhere!

Re: PSA on fan control

Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:37 pm

Honestly I think I'm struggling to find something that would require me to put any fan beyond 60% on my desktop PC no matter what I load it with despite its sub-optimal fan configuration. 60% seems like a good place to cap the fan speed on high-speed fans, leaving the extra 40% for "just in case". (In fact, my motherboard allows me to set whatever fan speeds I want with its three points, but if the motherboard's CPU temperature sensor (not the CPU's own temperature sensor, this seems to be measuring something close to IHS temps) sees 75C, it's instant 100%. This can't be changed.

I'd need to set all fans to minimum, even the CPU, for that to even happen. Even having 30% on the H60 is enough to prevent this from happening on very high loads.
i5-4590 | Kingston 2x8GB | Asus Strix GTX 970 | Asus Z97-Pro Gamer | Kingston Fury 240GB + WD Black 2TB | Windows 10 Anniversary Update
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 48303
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: PSA on fan control

Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:47 pm

Noinoi wrote:
(In fact, my motherboard allows me to set whatever fan speeds I want with its three points, but if the motherboard's CPU temperature sensor (not the CPU's own temperature sensor, this seems to be measuring something close to IHS temps) sees 75C, it's instant 100%. This can't be changed.

I have read somewhere (maybe in these forums?) that the CPU temperature reported by many Asus motherboards is from a sensor under the CPU. So yeah, I imagine it would be fairly close to IHS temps, once everything reaches thermal equilibrium.
If the world isn't making sense to you, you're either drinking too much or not drinking enough.
 
bthylafh
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3822
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:55 pm
Location: Southwest Missouri, USA

Re: PSA on fan control

Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:18 pm

DPete27 wrote:
I've seen my fair share of behemoth cases with fans stuffed into every available mount running at full tilt because....?  EXTREME.....  :roll:


You haven't lived until you watch and hear a 7200 RPM (oh yes) CPU cooler spin up. That was a K7 Athlon system, IIRC.
Hakkaa päälle!
i5-2500K@4.3|Asus P8P67-LE|8GB DDR3-1600|Powercolor R7850 2G|SanDisk Ultra II 480GB|1988 Model M|Saitek X-45|Logitech MX 518 & F310|Dell 2209WA|Sennheiser PC151|Asus Xonar DX
 
Noinoi
Gerbil First Class
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:31 pm
Location: Somewhere, anywhere!

Re: PSA on fan control

Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:36 am

bthylafh wrote:
DPete27 wrote:
I've seen my fair share of behemoth cases with fans stuffed into every available mount running at full tilt because....?  EXTREME.....  :roll:


You haven't lived until you watch and hear a 7200 RPM (oh yes) CPU cooler spin up.  That was a K7 Athlon system, IIRC.

I'd suspect I could hear it a room away or two if it's a decently-sized one on top of that speed.
At full blast, my desktop's fans are tolerable (2000 RPM for CPU (nominal - I usually get more like 2100), 1650 RPM for the case fans (I swapped the lone case fan out for pair AF120s - back when I bought them it was either that or a bunch of unknown quantities)) while pushing plenty of air, but it's clearly audible through open-air headphones - I have a pair around for general music listening uses, so I can't run the fans at maximum speed all the time even if I'm otherwise fine with it. Setting them all to 60% of maximum makes them quiet enough to be inaudible for the most part.
Honestly, though, I think a personal computer system shouldn't make a racket if it doesn't have a need to. I like how fan controls are getting there on more and more motherboards, though I do still see some motherboards that can barely control things... usually on the very low end, so probably doesn't matter too much for folks here.
i5-4590 | Kingston 2x8GB | Asus Strix GTX 970 | Asus Z97-Pro Gamer | Kingston Fury 240GB + WD Black 2TB | Windows 10 Anniversary Update
 
Starfalcon
Gerbilus Supremus
Posts: 11922
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 10:43 am
Location: Evergreen Park, IL
Contact:

Re: PSA on fan control

Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:20 am

bthylafh wrote:
DPete27 wrote:
I've seen my fair share of behemoth cases with fans stuffed into every available mount running at full tilt because....?  EXTREME.....  :roll:


You haven't lived until you watch and hear a 7200 RPM (oh yes) CPU cooler spin up. That was a K7 Athlon system, IIRC.



Psh, I had a cpuFx heatsink on my 1.4 athlon with the big daddy 60mm 8K rpm Delta hearing destroyer, along with 6 of the 80mm 7k rpm "case" fans.

Game.Set.Match

Needless to say, my computer gave me a blinding headache after 30 mins of so from the extreme noise. That is what lead me down the road to quieter and less noisy fans.
Image
Abit BP6 2X 300A@450 mhz, 1.5 GB PC133 ECC, Renditon Verite V2200, SB AWE32, Adaptec 2940U2W, 4.3GB Quantum Atlas 10K, Plextor Ultraplex
 
Waco
Gold subscriber
Gerbil Jedi
Posts: 1854
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: Los Alamos, NM

Re: PSA on fan control

Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:39 am

I just leave all of mine at minimum on a manual fan controller (Yate Loon medium speed fans running at somewhere south of 1000 RPM). There's one real advantage to a bigass custom loop - it's incredibly hard to actually stress it. It may cost a lot, but my computer's noise profile *never* changes unless I load up the GPU, and Nvidia has done a decent job at making the fan profiles not suck in the past few years.

I used to watercool everything, but full cover blocks vary wildly in quality and always cost a pretty penny. There was the absolute bliss of zero noise changes regardless of load though...

I don't miss my Tornadoes. I still have a handful of the 80mm and 92mm version in the basement, but I can't bring myself to use them on anything. They have such an obnoxious drone thanks to the fixed fin array that you can't make them sound nice no matter how slowly you spin them.

I used to run Nidec Beta Vs that have a nice tone (the triple bladed version...TA450s I think), but they sucked for anything that required high static pressure.
Z170A Gaming Pro Carbon | 6700K @ 4.5 | 16 GB | GTX Titan X | Seasonix Gold 850 | XSPC RX360 | Heatkiller R3 | D5 + RP-452X2 | Cosmos II | 480 + 240 + LSI 9207-8i (128x8) SSDs
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 48303
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: PSA on fan control

Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:24 am

Starfalcon wrote:
bthylafh wrote:
DPete27 wrote:
I've seen my fair share of behemoth cases with fans stuffed into every available mount running at full tilt because....?  EXTREME.....  :roll:

You haven't lived until you watch and hear a 7200 RPM (oh yes) CPU cooler spin up. That was a K7 Athlon system, IIRC.

Psh, I had a cpuFx heatsink on my 1.4 athlon with the big daddy 60mm 8K rpm Delta hearing destroyer, along with 6 of the 80mm 7k rpm "case" fans.

Game.Set.Match

Needless to say, my computer gave me a blinding headache after 30 mins of so from the extreme noise. That is what lead me down the road to quieter and less noisy fans.

In the running for the loudest piece of computer equipment I've dealt with was an HP 8-cartridge LTO tape library a couple of jobs back. HP somehow managed to cram it into a 1U rackmount enclosure, and the whole rear panel was a row of tiny fans which had to be 10K RPM at least. Everyone on the half of the floor where the server room was located knew when the tape library was in use.
If the world isn't making sense to you, you're either drinking too much or not drinking enough.
 
Anovoca
Silver subscriber
Gerbil XP
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:03 pm
Location: Green Bay, Wi

Re: PSA on fan control

Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:52 am

1U rackmount for a LTO drive? Cripe's sakes my smallest one right now is 4 and we only write 2-6 tapes a day max.  Were you guys that hard up for rack room with that much data to back up that you couldn't use DVD or 2" cassette?
A few minutes with me inside my van, Should be so beautiful if we can
-- Steven Wilson
 
synthtel2
Gold subscriber
Gerbil XP
Topic Author
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:30 am

Re: PSA on fan control

Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:24 pm

Waco wrote:
There was the absolute bliss of zero noise changes regardless of load though...

The lack of this just let me know my computer was infected. 20% CPU load when it was supposed to be idle made just enough noise to let me know something was up, and this alone probably kept it from doing any real damage. (Of course, if I hadn't been running Linux a random burst of CPU load would have been meaningless, but that's a different story.)
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 48303
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: PSA on fan control

Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:52 pm

Anovoca wrote:
1U rackmount for a LTO drive? Cripe's sakes my smallest one right now is 4 and we only write 2-6 tapes a day max.  Were you guys that hard up for rack room with that much data to back up that you couldn't use DVD or 2" cassette?

Purchasing that thing was not my decision. The IT guy at corporate ordered it for us. We typically wrote one tape a day, and the rack it went into was half empty so there was no shortage of space.

I know... makes no sense.

I always wanted to take it apart to see how it worked inside. An 8-tape library in 1U seemed like a pretty magical piece of engineering, in spite of the fan racket.
If the world isn't making sense to you, you're either drinking too much or not drinking enough.
 
TwistedKestrel
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 617
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 4:29 pm

Re: PSA on fan control

Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:29 pm

Was it anything like this?

 
Ninjitsu
Gerbil Team Leader
Posts: 212
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:46 am

Re: PSA on fan control

Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:32 pm

Isn't that why high static pressure fans are supposed to be used for heatsinks, though (as opposed to high air flow)?
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 48303
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: PSA on fan control

Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:58 am

TwistedKestrel wrote:
Was it anything like this?
<snip>

Yes, except instead of a single 8-cartridge magazine in the center it had a pair of 4-cartridge magazines to either side, with the control panel in the center. I really wanted to see what the internal mechanism looked like, because I was having a hard time imagining how they got the tapes loaded and unloaded from the drive in such a limited space.
If the world isn't making sense to you, you're either drinking too much or not drinking enough.
 
Chrispy_
Gold subscriber
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3926
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: Europe, most frequently London.

Re: PSA on fan control

Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:43 am

Tape libraries just seem to be rammed tight. Our dual-LTO6 unit is a 24-slot model but that is only 2U.

My favourite one was an old IBM TL4000 which was a rebadged Quantum. It just used a giant rubber conveyor belt of tapes. Made one helluva racket though (the belt, not just the fans).
Congratulations, you've noticed that this year's signature is based on outdated internet memes; CLICK HERE NOW to experience this unforgettable phenomenon. This sentence is just filler and as irrelevant as my signature.
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 48303
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: PSA on fan control

Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:20 am

Years ago I worked at a place that had a robotic tape library that was nearly the size of a rail car. The tapes were in floor to ceiling racks along both sides, and there was a track up the middle with a huge industrial robot on it. This thing looked like it was big enough to sling auto transmissions around, but it had a tiny little grabber mechanism mounted to the end of the arm so it could mount and unmount tape cartridges from the tape drives. When it rolled from one end of the library to the other, you could feel the floor shake. I found the whole thing rather amusing...
If the world isn't making sense to you, you're either drinking too much or not drinking enough.
 
Waco
Gold subscriber
Gerbil Jedi
Posts: 1854
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: Los Alamos, NM

Re: PSA on fan control

Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:02 am

just brew it! wrote:
Years ago I worked at a place that had a robotic tape library that was nearly the size of a rail car. The tapes were in floor to ceiling racks along both sides, and there was a track up the middle with a huge industrial robot on it. This thing looked like it was big enough to sling auto transmissions around, but it had a tiny little grabber mechanism mounted to the end of the arm so it could mount and unmount tape cartridges from the tape drives. When it rolled from one end of the library to the other, you could feel the floor shake. I found the whole thing rather amusing...

We have six SL8500s, three six-frame T950s, and a handful of other IBM/Spectra/Oracle libraries at work. Tape, no matter what drive vendors will try to tell you, is far from dead. I can happily report that the tape libraries are pretty much the quietest things in the rooms they are in though. :lol:

I miss the powderhorns though. Those things *really* moved.
Last edited by Waco on Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Z170A Gaming Pro Carbon | 6700K @ 4.5 | 16 GB | GTX Titan X | Seasonix Gold 850 | XSPC RX360 | Heatkiller R3 | D5 + RP-452X2 | Cosmos II | 480 + 240 + LSI 9207-8i (128x8) SSDs
 
Waco
Gold subscriber
Gerbil Jedi
Posts: 1854
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: Los Alamos, NM

Re: PSA on fan control

Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:03 am

synthtel2 wrote:
Waco wrote:
There was the absolute bliss of zero noise changes regardless of load though...

The lack of this just let me know my computer was infected. 20% CPU load when it was supposed to be idle made just enough noise to let me know something was up, and this alone probably kept it from doing any real damage. (Of course, if I hadn't been running Linux a random burst of CPU load would have been meaningless, but that's a different story.)

I have a taskbar monitor for CPU load, memory utilization, and temperature. I'm glad to see they finally fixed the broken Battle.net client, since it was eating a thread at boot time unless you restarted it for a few months.
Z170A Gaming Pro Carbon | 6700K @ 4.5 | 16 GB | GTX Titan X | Seasonix Gold 850 | XSPC RX360 | Heatkiller R3 | D5 + RP-452X2 | Cosmos II | 480 + 240 + LSI 9207-8i (128x8) SSDs
 
synthtel2
Gold subscriber
Gerbil XP
Topic Author
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:30 am

Re: PSA on fan control

Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:07 pm

That wouldn't have helped, since I was in the room but not using the computer.

Silent computers would be nice, but it would take a long time for me to get used to noise not being load-dependent. I keep htop open all the time, so theoretically I've got all the info right there too, but it'll never be as quick or automatic as just listening.
 
Waco
Gold subscriber
Gerbil Jedi
Posts: 1854
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: Los Alamos, NM

Re: PSA on fan control

Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:01 pm

synthtel2 wrote:
That wouldn't have helped, since I was in the room but not using the computer.

Silent computers would be nice, but it would take a long time for me to get used to noise not being load-dependent. I keep htop open all the time, so theoretically I've got all the info right there too, but it'll never be as quick or automatic as just listening.

It's an awesome feeling when you realize that encoding video and browsing YouTube are the same (silent) noise profile.
Z170A Gaming Pro Carbon | 6700K @ 4.5 | 16 GB | GTX Titan X | Seasonix Gold 850 | XSPC RX360 | Heatkiller R3 | D5 + RP-452X2 | Cosmos II | 480 + 240 + LSI 9207-8i (128x8) SSDs
 
synthtel2
Gold subscriber
Gerbil XP
Topic Author
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:30 am

Re: PSA on fan control

Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:09 pm

I guess if I did more things like video encoding that involve sustained load, I'd probably agree more. As is it's mostly just gaming that results in that kind of noise profile, and if I'm gaming I'm wearing headphones anyway.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest