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Lore
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I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:40 am

A couple of days ago i put together my new computer. A MSI Z370-A Pro, 16GB of DDR4 2666 crucial ram, Samsung 960 EVO 500GB, and a non k I7 8700, a 65W processor. My old computer was a I5 4670k, a 84W processor cooled by a Akasa Nero 3, your run of the mill 12cm fan 4 heatpipes with direct base contact tower cooler. Reached around 75C when stress testing from memory.

I used the same type of cooler on the new one, but a different unit since I had two of them. When testing with prime95,occt or just using handbrake temp jumps from 32C idle to over 70 in a heartbeat. It then quickly continues to 90C in a minute, and 100C in a little while, and then the I7 will throttle back a little bit, from 4.3 down to oscillating between 3.8/4.2. I of course tried another cooling paste, and then the pathetic stock cooler that came with the processor. That just gave me more noise and the same high temps. Motherboard bios is updated.

The base of the akasa gets so hot you can hold your finger there for less then a second. The heatpipes barely get body temp, and the fins feel cool, this may be to the fan ramping up to max from the heat, or has this cooler somehow run dry of whatever is in the heatpipes from lying around in storage for 4 years ? Another explanation may be the core voltage being as high as 1.4V reported by occt, since I have a non k processor I get no control over this in bios. The strange thing is that it is stable at this temp, no faults if you disable the automatic stopping of testing over 85C in occt. Still, it feel very wrong to continue like this.
https://imgur.com/a/DkjQr
 
Wren
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:12 am

I know recent Intel processors do get hot because of the thermal packaging (paste under the IHS) but that does seem a tad too warm. 1.41V seems way too high for this part. I don't think the cooler is at fault since those heatpipes are likely just solid metal. As for stress testing: I know later versions of prime95 use FMA3 on supported CPUs and this Instruction seems to heat up Intels very quickly in my own testing. Not sure about OCCT or Handbreak, maybe they are using AVX, I dunno.

It might be worth a shot opening a ticket with MSI support and asking them if that voltage is normal. I have only limited experience with Coffee Lake processors but 1.41V seems just far too high. I know all CPUs are different but my i3 8350K needed 'just' 1.32V for 4.9 GHz.

Could you download Prime95 V26.6 and give it a shot and see how hot it gets? This version doesn't use AVX or FMA3.

Are you using XMP profile by any chance, since that can do wacky things to the voltages in my experience. Might be an idea to disable XMP and run the memory at 2133 and see if it still gets super hot.

You could also have a defective CPU. It might have bad contact under the Heatspreader. But I don't think this is likely tbh.
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:31 am

Probably busted heatpipe. Get a new HSF, they're a dime a dozen.

Edit - missed the bit about the stock HSF.

The CPU may be rated for 65W but it's still a 6-core CPU that turbos to over 4GHz and you're running a synthetic workload designed to heat the CPU up as much as possible. IOW: it's probably running hotter than that. You could always hook up a kill-a-watt meter and check power consumption at idle, then after a couple minutes of P95. Guarantee the delta is > 65W (+ PSU inefficiency so say 70W).

Sounds like you've already checked your mount by re-applying thermal paste so at this point the only logical conclusion is that cooling is inadequate to keep the CPU temps below TjMax whilst running this workload at max turbo speed.
Last edited by techguy on Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:40 am

My 8700K never broke 70C on a Cryorig H7.
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Lore
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:49 am

Tried disabling xmp, clocking down the memory and using the older version of prime. Didn't make a difference. The motherboard doesn't ramp up voltage as much with prime, old or new(1.2V over time, 1.3V max) as with occt (1.3V over time, 1.41V max) but the same 100C is reached by both.
 
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:02 am

Coffee Lake chips are toasty chips when pushed hard just like Skylake-X chips. You are going to need a beefer HSF if you intended on running them hard. It is probably poor contact (only off by a few millmeters) that is the source of your issues. The CPU shouldn't hit 40-50C when completely idle from a cold boot. Your motherboard is also overvolting the chip for some reason. It probably has some "auto-overclocking" genie non-sense and you should trying disabling that too.
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:41 am

1.4v seems way too high for a stock 8700. From TR's 8700k review they used less than 1.3v to reach 5ghz.

Eventually, I compromised and set a 5-GHz all-core speed with a -2 AVX offset, good for 4.8 GHz on all cores under AVX workloads. Incredibly, that configuration was happy even under Prime95 loads with an observed 1.284-1.296V using dynamic Vcore on our Aorus motherboard, so it wasn't difficult to cool at all— 80° C or so was the order of the day with a Corsair H115i on top.


Maybe a BIOS issue on your board putting too much vcore in?
 
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:28 am

Your chip doesn't support overclocking, but your motherboard chipset does -- and a lot of the motherboard makers are turning Multi-Core-Enhancement on by default, which will try to make all 6 cores run at max single-thread clock all the time (i.e. it would try to run all 6 physical cores at 4.6 GHz even though that is only in-spec for single core).

Check for Multi-Core-Enhancement in the BIOS and make sure it's disabled. (I know with my ASUS it was set to "Auto" by default, and in this case Auto == On.)
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Lore
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:55 am

Since it isn't a k processor i don't have access to that part of the bios. Just greyed out text. It isn't running a multi core enhancement anyway. Have never seen it running 4.6, sometimes 4.5 on light loads, but on heavely multithreaded loads it runs a max of 4.3, and that is correct for this processor. It never runs 3.2 either, so the 3.2 or 4.6 you may imagine from reading a store page is the fartherst from the truth you can get. I could of course turn off the intel turbo setting, but then it would run a max of 3.2 even on light loads like gaming. Running doom in vulkan 1920x1080 (R9 Fury) gets me around 60% prosessor load and 60-70C. Only in these extremely heavy tests does it become a problem. Personally I think the bios supplying too much voltage and perhaps not throttling enough on heavy loads is most likely at fault here. I mean, it should actually run at 3.2 or close when loaded with avx on every core shouldn't it ? 3.6 is the minimum under load I've seen so far.
 
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:05 pm

Wren wrote:
since those heatpipes are likely just solid metal

Heat pipes don't work that way. They are actually copper tubes (or pipes if you will) that have a liquid in them. This is why they have the soldered point on the end of the pipe. The liquid used has a low boiling point so that it circulates through the pipe. So the liquid goes down to the bottom when it's cool, cooling the plate touching the CPU. The CPU heats it up, liquid boils and moves as a gas up through the pipe to the fin area of the HSF where it gets cooled back to a liquid and moves back to the plate area. Wash, rinse, repeat.



With regards to the high CPU voltage, there has to be a setting somewhere. You really want to find that because high voltage and the resulting high heat will shorten the lifespan of your CPU. I was going to look through the BIOS settings in the manual, but well, MSI's site is failing to load anything but the main page...at least for me. It seems to be on their side as it was initially returning a 504 Bad Gateway error, and now is coming up with Service Unavailable.
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mcarson09
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:22 pm

Lore wrote:
A couple of days ago i put together my new computer. A MSI Z370-A Pro, 16GB of DDR4 2666 crucial ram, Samsung 960 EVO 500GB, and a non k I7 8700, a 65W processor. My old computer was a I5 4670k, a 84W processor cooled by a Akasa Nero 3, your run of the mill 12cm fan 4 heatpipes with direct base contact tower cooler. Reached around 75C when stress testing from memory.

I used the same type of cooler on the new one, but a different unit since I had two of them. When testing with prime95,occt or just using handbrake temp jumps from 32C idle to over 70 in a heartbeat. It then quickly continues to 90C in a minute, and 100C in a little while, and then the I7 will throttle back a little bit, from 4.3 down to oscillating between 3.8/4.2. I of course tried another cooling paste, and then the pathetic stock cooler that came with the processor. That just gave me more noise and the same high temps. Motherboard bios is updated.

The base of the akasa gets so hot you can hold your finger there for less then a second. The heatpipes barely get body temp, and the fins feel cool, this may be to the fan ramping up to max from the heat, or has this cooler somehow run dry of whatever is in the heatpipes from lying around in storage for 4 years ? Another explanation may be the core voltage being as high as 1.4V reported by occt, since I have a non k processor I get no control over this in bios. The strange thing is that it is stable at this temp, no faults if you disable the automatic stopping of testing over 85C in occt. Still, it feel very wrong to continue like this.
https://imgur.com/a/DkjQr


This is your air cooler

http://www.akasa.com.tw/update.php?tpl= ... del=AK-967


The product design has been refined to ensure ultra quiet and exceptional cooling for CPU’s up to 150W TDP (Thermal Design Power).

[...]

Fan dimension 120 x 120 x 25mm
Fan speed 500-1500 RPM (PWM controlled)
Max airflow 50.54 CFM
Max air pressure 1.32 mm H2O
Noise level 24.6 dB(A)
Voltage rating DC 12V
Bearing type EBR
Fan life expectancy 40,000 hours
Fan connector 4pin PWM
Product code AK-CC4013EP01



But you are running to high of voltage for Air and expecting good temps. The cooler is rated for 150watts and under load you are probably well over that. You need something like a kill-A-watt metter to see what the system is using under full load.

You could replace the stock fan with something that does a static pressure of 8 mmH2O or higher but your ears will bleed.

Really if you want to use that kind of voltage you should build a water cooler setup that can handle 300 watts of power for cool and "quiet." The Quiet being totally subjective.
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DragonDaddyBear
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:31 pm

This may seem silly, but what is your fan profile like?
 
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:39 pm

mcarson09 wrote:
But you are running to high of voltage for Air and expecting good temps. The cooler is rated for 150watts and under load you are probably well over that. You need something like a kill-A-watt metter to see what the system is using under full load.

You could replace the stock fan with something that does a static pressure of 8 mmH2O or higher but your ears will bleed.

Really if you want to use that kind of voltage you should build a water cooler setup that can handle 300 watts of power for cool and "quiet." The Quiet being totally subjective.


No way is his 65W CPU, even at 1.4V, pulling OVER 150W. No way dude. Might want to rethink your math there.
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:12 pm

While I can understand having no control over the multiplier for that CPU, you should still have access to the voltage controls. I found my MSI Z370 Krait Gaming, if left set to "auto" on voltages, raised them a little higher than I'd like, even at stock. Set them all to what the motherboard states is the "standard" voltage when you mouse/key over them, like this :

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rl8k8gp0jpbkwdd/IMG_20171223_215955.jpg

Note I'm running my 8700k stock aside from letting all 6 cores run at 4.7 ("Multi Core Enhancement"), got lucky enough to be able to do that with a small negative voltage offset which keeps temps in check.

At the moment for example, my flat's at an ambient temp of 20.5c. In windows with just Chrome open typing this up, my 8700k is idling at 26c, 800mhz @0.660v, cooled by an Arctic Liquid Freezer 120 (which is a fat 120mm AIO water cooler). A handbrake encode will raise that to 70c on each core almost instantly, and it'll stay there. P95 will raise it to mid-70s, with all 6 cores at 4.7ghz @ 1.335v according to HWInfo64. And that's with a pair of chunky Corsair fans on the AIO, running at 100% under load.

With voltages set to "Auto", core temps were exceeding 90c with MSI's version of "Multi Core Enhancement" enabled. With them set to stock it's much more manageable. Ultimately though these are really warm chips when you artificially load them up.
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Lore
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:59 pm

mcarson09: I never wanted to have this high core voltage, it is auto set by the bios. The challenge was finding a way to lower it with the limited settings you get with a non k cpu.

Mentawl: Actually I don't have direct control over the voltage in that menu, but your post and picture did set me on the path to the solution so thanks Mentawl :D
What i can do is change the cpu loadline calibration, and that way the voltage got lowered from 1.41V max, to 1.15V max. I originally thought that setting was only for raising the voltage under load so I didn't look into it sooner. The max temp is now ca 80C, and the speed of the cpu is now stable at 4.3Ghz under heavy load instead of dropping to 3.8, and even 3.6 rarely. 80C is still a lot, but a definite improvement.

https://imgur.com/a/consC
Last edited by Lore on Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
DancinJack
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:03 pm

Slightly OT, but oooof, those MSI BIOS/UEFI screenshots are gross.

The Asus UEFI interface can be a little wonky, especially with mouse acceleration, but it does have every single option I need in there. Plus their fan controls are top notch (at least when I bought my board two years ago they were).
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Mentawl
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:12 pm

Lore, 1.15v seems a smidge low, is it stable at that? If so yay :) Did it come with top level load line calibration as stock? If so slightly terrifying!

Also, your screenshot looks identical to mine. Did you try just "typing" values into the fields? E.G. for DRAM just type in 1.20. It's not very obvious when an option is able to be changed in MSI's bios. Just mouse over an option and start typing a value, see if it works.

DancinJack, yes. I'm pretty disappointed in MSI's BIOS, this is my first MSI board (I've been Gigabyte and Asus in the past) and it's definitely ugly in comparison. It works well enough now I've kinda figured out how they like to do things, but urgh.
Last edited by Mentawl on Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lore
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:30 pm

You were right, 1.15 was too low. Not p95 stable. Going through the loadline levels now to see where it becomes stable, stability testing takes a lot of time so...
Tried just mousing over and typing, god in heaven am I embarrassed now :oops: It actually worked. So used to double clicking and choosing a value from a list :oops:
Thanks for taking the time to help a fool :wink:
 
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:41 pm

It really threw me too, not seen a BIOS work like that before. Glad it works for you too! If you mouse over each option it should tell you what the "stock" voltage is etc in a little popup on the right, so you can set each one appropriately.

MSI, please work on your BIOS to make it a little more user friendly and a little less clunky! And that doesn't mean prettying it up and putting more colours and fancy on it, just give us plain text options that work in an obvious fashion. It's horrible to use at present :(
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DancinJack
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:19 pm

FWIW, that's how the ASUS UEFI works too. There is a dropdown for pre-set values and then an open box that you can type into. It takes a minute or two to get used to, but once you know it's there it can be pretty easy to get things set up properly.

Image
(not my PC)
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:33 pm

Yea, it took me a bit to get used to my x299 sli plus mobo. I will say this, you are probably not wrong about how much line load calibration was on by default.
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:53 pm

DancinJack wrote:
FWIW, that's how the ASUS UEFI works too. There is a dropdown for pre-set values and then an open box that you can type into. It takes a minute or two to get used to, but once you know it's there it can be pretty easy to get things set up properly.

Image
(not my PC)


Aye, the problem is there's no indication on the MSI one that it's an editable field - it doesn't get highlighted, there's no cursor, there's not even a box around the field, the Auto doesn't flash or anything - it only starts getting overwritten when you start typing. Bizarre UX.
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mcarson09
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:19 am

DancinJack wrote:
mcarson09 wrote:
But you are running to high of voltage for Air and expecting good temps. The cooler is rated for 150watts and under load you are probably well over that. You need something like a kill-A-watt metter to see what the system is using under full load.

You could replace the stock fan with something that does a static pressure of 8 mmH2O or higher but your ears will bleed.

Really if you want to use that kind of voltage you should build a water cooler setup that can handle 300 watts of power for cool and "quiet." The Quiet being totally subjective.




No way is his 65W CPU, even at 1.4V, pulling OVER 150W. No way dude. Might want to rethink your math there.


You need to redo the math he said he's running 8700

https://ark.intel.com/products/126686/I ... o-4_60-GHz

The system can be pulling over 150 Watts under full load while overclocking, the 65 watt spec is for stock. That changes once you start overclocking and changing voltages. The only way he can prove the wattage usage of his system is by hooking the power supply to a power meter and taking a picture is the wattage under load. His cooler is rated for up to 150 watts and remember he said that the heatsink was hot to the touch which means he outputting more heat than the heatsink can handle.

The only real difference between the 8700K and 8700 is that the former is full unlocked while the latter is not.

if you put 1.28 volts to get 5.0GHz under a K chip is still can get up to 170 Watts using AVX.



http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/intel-cof ... 37-12.html

My understanding is that OCCT uses AVX instructions.

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/show ... es-use-AVX


Now what do you think a 8700 chip running at 1.41V out in terms of watts? They are the same chip just one is fully unlocked while the other is not. You can still match a K chip with a non K, but you have to use the bclk to get there.
Last edited by mcarson09 on Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:24 am

curtisb wrote:
Wren wrote:
since those heatpipes are likely just solid metal

Heat pipes don't work that way. They are actually copper tubes (or pipes if you will) that have a liquid in them. This is why they have the soldered point on the end of the pipe. The liquid used has a low boiling point so that it circulates through the pipe. So the liquid goes down to the bottom when it's cool, cooling the plate touching the CPU. The CPU heats it up, liquid boils and moves as a gas up through the pipe to the fin area of the HSF where it gets cooled back to a liquid and moves back to the plate area. Wash, rinse, repeat.


Really? I didn't know that! :o Learn something new every day I guess. I honestly thought they are just solid metal pipes that conduct heat.
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:52 am

mcarson09 wrote:
The system can be pulling over 150 Watts under full load while overclocking, the 65 watt spec is for stock.

You're mixing what the entire system pulls with what the CPU alone pulls. Putting a power meter on the system is only going to tell you what the entire system is pulling...including graphics, RAM, hard drives, the motherboard itself, etc. An HSF is rated for what the CPU pulls, not the entire system. Guaranteed he wasn't pulling 150W from just the CPU, even at that voltage. Your Tom's Hardware link shows just that...the entire system was under 130W at 4.8GHz/1.28V.

mcarson09 wrote:
That changes once you start overclocking and changing voltages.

If you bothered to read the thread you would know that he isn't overclocking and was not intentionally running the voltage that high. He started the thread asking for help in finding out why.

mcarson09 wrote:
he said that the heatsink was hot to the touch which means he outputting more heat than the heatsink can handle.

Run any modern CPU at max load for a few minutes and then immediately try to touch the heat sink base (which is what he actually said). If it was more than the HSF could handle, then the heatpipes and fins would have also been hot to the touch, and he said they were cool.

mcarson09 wrote:
The only real difference between the 8700K and 8700 is that the former is full unlocked while the latter is not.

That's like oversimplifying it and saying the only difference between an i5 and an i7 is Hyper-Threading. While that is true, there are other things to take into account. The 8700K has a 500MHz higher base clock, and a 100MHz higher turbo clock, and is therefore rated for a 95W TDP instead of 65W TDP.







Wren wrote:
curtisb wrote:
Heat pipes don't work that way. They are actually copper tubes (or pipes if you will) that have a liquid in them. This is why they have the soldered point on the end of the pipe. The liquid used has a low boiling point so that it circulates through the pipe. So the liquid goes down to the bottom when it's cool, cooling the plate touching the CPU. The CPU heats it up, liquid boils and moves as a gas up through the pipe to the fin area of the HSF where it gets cooled back to a liquid and moves back to the plate area. Wash, rinse, repeat.


Really? I didn't know that! :o Learn something new every day I guess. I honestly thought they are just solid metal pipes that conduct heat.

Glad I could help! There's more that goes into it than my explanation, but that gives you the gist. And if they were solid, they wouldn't really be pipes then. :D I would think they would be called a heat bar or something in that case. :lol:
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:14 am

As others have said, 1.4v does sound high for stock 4.3ghz at 6C/12T... obviously it depends on the chip, but Tom's Hardware above found their example could do 1.28v... and yes, Prime95 in current builds does use AVX.
 
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:42 am

curtisb wrote:
And if they were solid, they wouldn't really be pipes then.

That's very true lol. I feel stupid now xD
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:27 pm

curtisb wrote:
That's like oversimplifying it and saying the only difference between an i5 and an i7 is Hyper-Threading. While that is true, there are other things to take into account. The 8700K has a 500MHz higher base clock, and a 100MHz higher turbo clock, and is therefore rated for a 95W TDP instead of 65W TDP.


We are not comparing an I7 to an i5. We are comparing an I7 to another I7 of the same model type an 8700 to 8700k.

You are people are assuming that there's no difference if you run the same voltage between non and K chips when even the S model chips run like the standard versions.

Techspot has done third party testing showing the S (65W )chips run at the same power draw as the normal models (84W).

https://www.techspot.com/article/960-in ... rformance/

So why would this not also apply to the K vs non K?

Third party testing is showing that the spec sheet is likely wrong and thus pointing to a spec sheet that is likely incorrect is not much of an argument.

It would be nice if Lore obtained a power meter and told us how much his system is actually using. The heatsink he is trying to use can't handle the load with that 1.30V let alone 1.41V.
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:31 am

mcarson09 wrote:
curtisb wrote:
That's like oversimplifying it and saying the only difference between an i5 and an i7 is Hyper-Threading. While that is true, there are other things to take into account. The 8700K has a 500MHz higher base clock, and a 100MHz higher turbo clock, and is therefore rated for a 95W TDP instead of 65W TDP.


Techspot has done third party testing showing the S (65W )chips run at the same power draw as the normal models (84W).

Third party testing is showing that the spec sheet is likely wrong and thus pointing to a spec sheet that is likely incorrect is not much of an argument.


GUYS-Why is everyone still miss-using TDP as power usage?
TDP (Thermal design power) is there for heatsink manufacturers to know how much waste heat they have to design for.
 
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Re: I7 8700 reaching 100C

Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:12 am

I'm kinda curius about total system power usage myself, but that doesn't really tell me exactly how much of that is used by the cpu. Money is also low after buying these parts, buying presents and having to order a better cooler for this hot cpu and a new receiver for my speakers since the old one died after only 5 years of use on thursday. The bad news is even with a normal core voltage(1.19Vmax) and all 3 case fans running at max it still reaches 100C in the end, it just takes much longer to reach that temp than it did with the higher voltage. I'll report back on the temps when the new cooler is here.
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