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rinshun
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Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:19 pm

Hello,

I live in Brazil, so SSD prices are completely different from the rest of the world it seems.

What I can afford is the mentioned Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB. It is "really cheap" in brazilian SSD standards. But I want advice if this SSD is garbage or I can go for it.

Thanks in advance!
 
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:43 pm

Kingston is famous for switching the flash chips used in their SSD for lowering performing async flash chips compared to what they send out to reviewers, so there on my list of hardware to avoid buying. Do they still do it though I haven't checked.
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:53 pm

I own a few. They're not stellar performers, but they're reliable.

As budget SSD options go, they're OK.
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Waco
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:56 pm

What jbi said - if they're cheaper than everything else and performance isn't a primary concern (and generally when talking SSDs, we're talking write performance, which almost nobody *really* cares about), they're good drives.

I'm kicking myself for not buying one of the Sandisk 960 GB drives for $200 on Black Friday still...they aren't the fastest drives at writing but they're reliable and quick for reads.
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:16 pm

I wouldn't buy a Kingston SSD just on principle, ESPECIALLY the V300. If you need something super-cheap, consider the Sandisk SDD Plus, or something on sale from Crucial (Microcenter is currently discounting the excellent BX100 drives).
 
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:57 pm

I'm with JBI on this. They're absolutely fine, as long as you don't think you're buying a speed-demon. Not only do they have a good reliability track record, Kingston are also fantastic for customer support based on my experience with them for RMAs.

Sure, they got "caught" swapping toggle-mode NAND for async NAND and there's a reduction in peak bandwidth for benchmarking figures, but the reality is that they never actually lied about the specs and their focus for the Vx00-series drives is lowest cost/GB. Assuming a V300 is cheaper than other drives and cost is your biggest concern, then go for it. The async NAND in a current V300 means it won't saturate the SATA3 bandwidth for peak reads and writes, but unlike a cheap TLC NAND model, the MLC NAND in a V300 gives it lower latencies and better low-queue-depth performance which is what you really want in an OS drive.

What worries me about the Sandisk SSD plus is that there are absolutely zero reviews, absolutely nobody knows what controller or NAND it uses, my Google-fu can't even find any images of one dismanted so we can see what sort of product it is. All we know from Sandisk is that they're being coy about it's performance because unlike any of their other products they're refusing to publish either its IOPS or its 4K read/write performance. Add all that to the low advertised write performance of the 120GB model and I suspect the drive is a turd best avoided.

The Sandforce-powered V300 is a dated design and a mediocre performer but it's absolutely fine and has a proven track record as a decent disk for your operating system.
The Sandisk SSD Plus is a mystery SSD that has vital 4K/IOPS performance so low that Sandisk are ashamed to put them on their product page.
This is why brand loyalty is a problem; a brand that you trust will use that trust to sell you a lemon (Crucial V4, Samsung 840/840EVO, and purportedly, Sandisk SSD Plus)
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:48 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
This is why brand loyalty is a problem; a brand that you trust will use that trust to sell you a lemon (Crucial V4, Samsung 840/840EVO, and purportedly, Sandisk SSD Plus)

Another way to put it is your setting yourself up for your own monopoly by sticking to one brand and not being open to other brands assuming you have a choice.
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:06 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
The Sandisk SSD Plus is a mystery SSD that has vital 4K/IOPS performance so low that Sandisk are ashamed to put them on their product page.

Nobody, I repeat, nobody, should really care about 4K write performance these days for desktop use. Every single drive you can buy is orders of magnitude faster than the busted first-generation drives with the JMicron controller.

Beyond that, filesystems in general are pretty good at not actually presenting that type of workload to any drive. If the sequential writes are decent and the random write are simply *not abysmal* it will perform perfectly well in 99.999999% of the workloads in consumer machines.
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:12 pm

The V300 is a cheap-and-cheerful SSD using commodity components to keep the cost down, it should do fine for your needs. It's true that Kingston made some questionable marketing decisions concerning this product, but bear in mind that the controversy was about how they listed the specs, not what the specs actually were, and nobody has produced convincing proof that the drive won't do what it's rated for. If there was a comparable known-quantity performer with a comparable price, such as flag-waving Mushkin here in the US, I might favor them but it sounds like there's not.
 
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:40 pm

Waco wrote:
Chrispy_ wrote:
The Sandisk SSD Plus is a mystery SSD that has vital 4K/IOPS performance so low that Sandisk are ashamed to put them on their product page.

Nobody, I repeat, nobody, should really care about 4K write performance these days for desktop use. Every single drive you can buy is orders of magnitude faster than the busted first-generation drives with the JMicron controller.

Beyond that, filesystems in general are pretty good at not actually presenting that type of workload to any drive. If the sequential writes are decent and the random write are simply *not abysmal* it will perform perfectly well in 99.999999% of the workloads in consumer machines.

You'd be surprised - I compared a Sandisk Ultra II 120GB and an M500 120GB in identical machines. HP 6530b/C2D P8700/Win7. The machine has AHCI, but the usual Intel SATA II controller of the era. And yet, the M500 performed decently (as in, meh, that's nice compared to a HDD), while the Ultra II made the machine quite zippy to boot, just like newer stuff with SATA III (as in whoa, the boot times are comparable to my Sandy Bridge machine with SATA III). And I've also had some funky firmware issues with numerous Crucial drives - Lenovo BIOSes not detecting them, HPs where the drive randomly disappeared, etc. Multiple drives there. The Sandisk Ultra II 120GB and Extreme Pro 240GB I have are rock solid though. The Toshiba Q Pro 256GB in the laptop has been quite solid as well. That's basically all I care about on SSDs nowadays.
 
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:22 pm

I have SanDisk SSDs from a handful of model lines. The SSD Plus numbers are good, and in my very unscientific tests they are nearly on par with my Ultra II numbers. For a guy like me that can't tell the difference between first gen Sandforce and the Extreme series the SSD Plus is a fine product.

The title of this thread still bugs me, as if the Kingston is a rip off. SSD prices in general may be a rip off in your country, I get that. The kingston isn't a bad drive and isn't dramatically less reliable nor will it be noticeably slower than other cheap SSDs in that price range.

As for the grudge against Kingston for swapping NAND, I get it but I don't believe that it's prudent advice to tell the OP he has to spend more money on a different SSD because the company once did something that they shouldn't have but which does not affect the drive in question.
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:43 pm

localhostrulez wrote:
And I've also had some funky firmware issues with numerous Crucial drives - Lenovo BIOSes not detecting them, HPs where the drive randomly disappeared, etc. Multiple drives there.

I have two M500s that I brought in middle of 2013 when I built my system, and never had a problem with them. Do Crucial SDDs have issues with prebuilts and not DIY builds?
 
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:47 pm

Ask the guy that won the desktop in TR giveaway about Kingston SSDs being reliable. :P
Sure the one out the two drives was bad but still.
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:23 am

i have an older kingston v100+ drive (different controller). it works fine (and has for a couple of years i've had it), and was a huge step up from a mechanical hard drive.
 
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:21 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
What worries me about the Sandisk SSD plus is that there are absolutely zero reviews, absolutely nobody knows what controller or NAND it uses, my Google-fu can't even find any images of one dismanted so we can see what sort of product it is. All we know from Sandisk is that they're being coy about it's performance because unlike any of their other products they're refusing to publish either its IOPS or its 4K read/write performance. Add all that to the low advertised write performance of the 120GB model and I suspect the drive is a turd best avoided.

I noticed that a few months ago when I installed one in my dad's old netbook (had a hard limit of $50), but user reviews are very positive and it seems to be reliable enough. Consider that at $44, it's about the least expensive brand-name SSD you can buy, so I wouldn't expect the world.

As I said, I refuse to buy or recommend Kingston SSDs on principle alone. Bait and switching customers is not acceptable, and judging by sales, they probably have not learned their lesson (if anything it might encourage them to do it again).
 
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:19 am

rinshun wrote:
Hello,

I live in Brazil, so SSD prices are completely different from the rest of the world it seems.

What I can afford is the mentioned Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB. It is "really cheap" in brazilian SSD standards. But I want advice if this SSD is garbage or I can go for it.

Thanks in advance!

My opinion is that drive sits on the bottom of the pile (best avoided) with the likes of-
Patriot Blaze/Blast.
OCZ Trion.
Toshiba Q300.
Crucial BX200.
How much is the cost of stepping up to the next level?
Crucial BX100
Transcend 370
Samsung 850 EVO.
Sandisk Ultra 2.
The biggest problem with 120/128 GB SSD's is performance has dropped with Nand shrinks.
The only 120 I feel i could recommend is Samsung 850 EVO.
Once you move up to 240/256 GB there's plenty.
Here in AUS it costs about 60% more to go to 240/256 GB model.
 
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:27 am

ERROR
Last edited by HERETIC on Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:55 am

Chrispy_ wrote:

What worries me about the Sandisk SSD plus is that there are absolutely zero reviews, absolutely nobody knows what controller or NAND it uses, my Google-fu can't even find any images of one dismanted so we can see what sort of product it is. All we know from Sandisk is that they're being coy about it's performance because unlike any of their other products they're refusing to publish either its IOPS or its 4K read/write performance. Add all that to the low advertised write performance of the 120GB model and I suspect the drive is a turd best avoided.

The Sandforce-powered V300 is a dated design and a mediocre performer but it's absolutely fine and has a proven track record as a decent disk for your operating system.
The Sandisk SSD Plus is a mystery SSD that has vital 4K/IOPS performance so low that Sandisk are ashamed to put them on their product page.
This is why brand loyalty is a problem; a brand that you trust will use that trust to sell you a lemon (Crucial V4, Samsung 840/840EVO, and purportedly, Sandisk SSD Plus)


Hi Chrispy I've also found it hard finding info on the Sandisk Plus.
Need to translate this one-
http://pc.zoznam.sk/sandisk-ssd-plus-24 ... -potencial
Some extra-
http://shrani.si/f/1M/1S/28Z59AfY/sandisk.png
http://shrani.si/f/18/wb/4jASgoRG/as-ss ... sk-sds.png
Think this portable USB3 is based on same drive-Seems to be MLC and SM controller.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9847/sand ... ssd-review

What puts Kingston on my no go list mainly is they cut and bin their own dies,and who knows how low they are prepared to go.
I like to see flash cut and binned by manufacturer.
Remember that's one of the things that killed OCZ, along with the nightmare that was Sandforce at the time,and being forced into using us as crash test dummies for their own controllers..............................
 
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:26 am

I did take a chance and snagged a PNY CS1211 SSD 120GB for my older AMD system I still have. Working without issue the last 6 months, and performance was better than expected. Unfortunately the south bridge chipset is only capable of up to 300 MB/s so the SSD is being held back, but it still beats a slow Seagate 7200 RPM hard drive.
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:16 am

Hmm, I read that Korean review and the all-important 4K QD1 result for the Sandisk SSD Plus is bad but acceptable for an SSD.

Despite arguments to the contrary, drives that have been unmitigated failures in the past (such as the Crucial V4) have all had poor 4K performance. Beyond a certain point the 4K QD1 IOP performance is irrelevant for consumer use but if either the read or write values are below 2000 IOPS at QD1, then the drive is a dog. The V4 was so bad because its write IOPS was around 500.

The Sandisk's 5K read and 14K write IOPS are fast enough that despite being only half the competition's performance, are still fast enough that it shouldn't be noticeable for consumer use.
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:55 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
Beyond a certain point the 4K QD1 IOP performance is irrelevant for consumer use but if either the read or write values are below 2000 IOPS at QD1, then the drive is a dog. The V4 was so bad because its write IOPS was around 500.

The Sandisk's 5K read and 14K write IOPS are fast enough that despite being only half the competition's performance, are still fast enough that it shouldn't be noticeable for consumer use.

8 MB/s is almost top-end performance in 4K writes from a few years ago. Who cares if the drive is slow in a spec that almost nobody cares about as long as it's reasonably fast in general use and doesn't display randomly high write latencies?
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:13 pm

Waco wrote:
8 MB/s is almost top-end performance in 4K writes from a few years ago. Who cares if the drive is slow in a spec that almost nobody cares about as long as it's reasonably fast in general use and doesn't display randomly high write latencies?

4K write performance isn't just a meaningless synthetic benchmark, it is relevant to many real-world usage patterns. Copying a folder containing lots of small files (or unzipping an archive of small files) will result in a lot of individual small writes, which is exactly what 4K write benchmark is designed to test.
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:58 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Waco wrote:
8 MB/s is almost top-end performance in 4K writes from a few years ago. Who cares if the drive is slow in a spec that almost nobody cares about as long as it's reasonably fast in general use and doesn't display randomly high write latencies?

4K write performance isn't just a meaningless synthetic benchmark, it is relevant to many real-world usage patterns. Copying a folder containing lots of small files (or unzipping an archive of small files) will result in a lot of individual small writes, which is exactly what 4K write benchmark is designed to test.

I fully understand the use cases (not that filesystems like NTFS usually present that kind of workload to the actual storage).

My point is that 2000 operations per second is still damn near what high end SSDs were doing a few years back. It's also still an order of magnitude faster than the fastest hard drives consumers can buy.
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:02 pm

I've always thought crystaldiskmark is one of the best quick tests you can run on SSD's to sort the wheat from the chaff.

4K reads/writes need to be at least 10MB/s for the QD1 test, ideally 20MB/s. Sequential is sequential but 200+ MB/s is fast enough that it won't be a common bottleneck in daily use.

My first Intel X-25M suffered from slow sequential writes. At 70MB/s it was no faster than a WD green hard drive - but it could also write 4K at 20MB/s (8K IOPS). Later I bought a much larger Indilinx drive which was Intel's first serious competitor and that gave me double the sequential writes but half the IOPS (26MB/s read and 13MB/s write at 4KQD1). The Intel drive felt much faster as an application/OS drive whilst the Indilinx benchmarked better with 160MB/s sequential writes. Ain't nobody got time for benchmarks, it's real world performance that counts!

For what it's worth, the only drives I've ever encountered that has lower than 4K IOPS were the V4 and an old JMicron from before the X25-M (but I didn't experience one until after the X25-M) so 2K IOPS is definitely not good. You have to remember that 2000 evenly spread IOPS is fine but that in a low-IOPS product it probably has terrible consistency too, meaning that a 2000 IOPS result averages latencies from 0.01 up to 500ms(!!!) over the course of several seconds of testing. Just as TR showed us that average FPS numbers for GPU benchmarks mask the presence of huge latency spikes, the same is true of SSD performance and peak service times.

Sadly there's no specification-friendly metric to show performance consistency in terms of 99th-percentile peak service time, but that's what we're really looking for with IOPS numbers more than anything else.
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:10 pm

Thanks for all the replies!

About the title, I wanted to know if the V300 was a rip off or not. (Was not my intention to imply it was).
I don't hold grudges against kingston, I just want the best for my money.

I'm really out of options here. I found the Sandisk SSD PLUS for about the same price as the kingston, but reviews said stuff like "dead on arrival" "stopped working after a week"; while Kingston reviews only mentioned the slow speeds.

What I understood is that the V300 series are reliable, much faster than HDD (but not top rated SSD), and don't come with any unwanted surprises.

So, thanks again, I almost gave up buying it because I thought performance would be similar to HDD
 
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:55 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
For what it's worth, the only drives I've ever encountered that has lower than 4K IOPS were the V4 and an old JMicron from before the X25-M (but I didn't experience one until after the X25-M) so 2K IOPS is definitely not good. You have to remember that 2000 evenly spread IOPS is fine but that in a low-IOPS product it probably has terrible consistency too, meaning that a 2000 IOPS result averages latencies from 0.01 up to 500ms(!!!) over the course of several seconds of testing.

I think that's the thing though - these drives that do 2000 IOPs are actually pretty consistent at those speeds.

The original Indilinx drives (I have two of them still) barely do 3000 IOPs QD1 4K on a good day. They're still more than quick enough for OS use without getting in the way, and they're way more inconsistent than the budget drives of today! No new controller design shows that nasty inconsistency on writes that gave budget SSDs such a terrible reputation.
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:50 pm

Waco wrote:
No new controller design shows that nasty inconsistency on writes that gave budget SSDs such a terrible reputation.


Thanks to TLC NAND, we're still reaching newer lows with every generation. Whilst it's quite hard to buy an unacceptable SSD these days, the race to the bottom means that manufacturers are toeing the line between acceptable and not.
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:39 pm

True, but that's why we have sites like TR to weed out the baddies. :)
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:08 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
Waco wrote:
No new controller design shows that nasty inconsistency on writes that gave budget SSDs such a terrible reputation.

Thanks to TLC NAND, we're still reaching newer lows with every generation. Whilst it's quite hard to buy an unacceptable SSD these days, the race to the bottom means that manufacturers are toeing the line between acceptable and not.

At least V-NAND seems to have mitigated some of the nasty effects of TLC.
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Re: Kingston SSDnow V300 120GB rip off advice

Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:38 am

If only it wasn't priced higher than most MLC and if only I could agree with giving any money at all to the sole current (greedy, immoral, unethical) V-NAND manufacturer! :P
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