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Rapster
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Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:36 am

Anybody able to help with NAS advice?  My media collection size and streaming needs have finally grown to the point where a real solution is needed.  The Synology 1815+ seems just about right, but the market offers lots of choices so I’d be interested to hear if there's something better that I overlooked.
Specifically I'm looking to:
1) Provide redundant storage for media collection
2) Stream to 1 (maybe 2) devices
3) Offload storage duties from my main computer
4) Occasionally access media from remote locations

In anticipation of this purchase, I already own 2 WD RED 6TB drives that will be added to a RAID 5 (or SHR) volume for a total of 6 matched drives (along with a couple long rebuilds).  This will leave two bays available for SSD, hot failover, or additional expansion down the road.  Any concerns about this?

Synology’s compatible UPS list is a bit dated. The APC unit (see below) comes up in reviews but is not on their list.  Anybody have experience with this?

As a practical reality, I'm just not willing to futz with FreeNas (etc). This is my precious data we're talking about and it has to "just work" all the time without having to read the tea leaves to get it right.

Finally, I've read *all* the recent NAS forum posts both here and just about everywhere else I can find, but times change so i'm asking this question again just in case.  Hopefully it's not seen as redundant.

Thanks!
rapster

Synology Disk Station 8-Bay Network Attached Storage (DS1815+)
https://www.amazon.com/Synology-Station-Network-Attached-DS1815/dp/B00P3RPMEO/ref=s9_simh_gw_g147_i1_r?_encoding=UTF8&fpl=fresh&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=&pf_rd_r=660J9J10BHE7D8J1G3QM&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=a6aaf593-1ba4-4f4e-bdcc-0febe090b8ed&pf_rd_i=desktop
$830

Kingston ValueRAM 4GB 1600MHz PC3-12800 DDR3 Non-ECC CL11 SODIMM SR x8 Notebook Memory (KVR16S11S8/4)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008CP5R8K/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
$26

WD Red 6TB NAS Hard Disk Drive - 5400 RPM Class SATA 6 Gb/s 64MB Cache 3.5 Inch - WD60EFRX
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LO3KR96/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
4 x $235 + 2 existing drives

APC Battery Backup & Surge Protector (BE750G) - 750VA 10-outlet Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000Z80ICM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
$83

$1879 + tax
 
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:57 am

A little surprised/disappointed it doesn't have ECC RAM, at that price point.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Duct Tape Dude
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:15 am

Not an expert on NAS devices and my setup is too convoluted to recommend but:
Rapster wrote:
6TB drives that will be added to a RAID 5 (or SHR) volume for a total of 6 matched drives
Rapster wrote:
This is my precious data we're talking about and it has to "just work" all the time without having to read the tea leaves to get it right.
Suppose a lightning strike, rodent, flood, robber, or errant beer mishap takes out 2+ drives. What are you doing for backup?
 
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:28 am

I'd build my own at that price point. I wouldn't trust my data to a RAID 5 with a standard FS either...
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:57 am

I absolutely love my Synology setup at home. I have an DS1512+ paired with a DX510 (primary backup). Offsite backup is handled by external USB 3.1 Gen 1 drives.

I use SHR. I've had drives fail and I have also expanded the capacity on the fly, I've had no issues (touch wood) installing replacement drives and having the NAS rebuild the array.

The NAS ties in nicely to my UPS via a USB connection.

I'd also look at QNAP products.
 
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:03 pm

Edit: Double post
Last edited by End User on Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
DragonDaddyBear
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 1:49 pm

I'm loving my Plex app on FreeNAS. I think some nas units in this price range offer it but I don't think that model does. If you are remotely considering it in the future I recommend you look into it. The transcoding is hardware based in many models and consumers much less power.
 
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:40 pm

I tried running Plex on a few different Synology NAS units and didn't have great results.  Not enough CPU power to really make it worthwhile.  I settled on a DS216se and put Plex on an old NUC I had been planning to sell.  The NUC handles all the transcoding and media storage while the DS216se is just for backups.  The machines on my network send their nightly backups there, and I'm using an app from Synology to sync it against an S3 bucket at AWS.

I'd say the reason to go with a Synology NAS is their software.  DSM is made exactly for those who don't mind missing a few features if it means they don't have to think about how to set it all up.  At that price point though, I'd want more control over the system than DSM can easily provide.
Last edited by Redocbew on Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:01 pm

Redocbew wrote:
I tried running Plex on a few different Synology NAS units and didn't have great results.  Not enough CPU power to really make it worthwhile.

I totally agree. I have an 8 core Ubuntu based Plex server VM to handle my video streaming. High quality media (uncompress HD content) can really hammer the server. Far beyond the CPU power available in a NAS.
 
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:05 pm

Yeah, with me as the only user maybe the Atom in the 1815+ would have been better suited to the task.  I could have scheduled the transcoding to be done during off-hours which might have made things workable, but once you start doing stuff like that the boundaries put in place by DSM start to become a hindrance rather than a help, and I didn't want to spend that much for an all-in-one box when I already had hardware which would do the job.
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Rapster
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:11 pm

just brew it! wrote:
A little surprised/disappointed it doesn't have ECC RAM, at that price point.

Yeah I agree.  It seems a natural fit for this application.  Frankly, I haven't seen ECC memory listed on any of the units I've looked at.
 
Rapster
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:16 pm

Duct Tape Dude wrote:
Suppose a lightning strike, rodent, flood, robber, or errant beer mishap takes out 2+ drives. What are you doing for backup?

All the things you mention are a real concern, especially beer and lightning. ;) Backups are currently a mix of external HDDs and cloud storage.  All the really important stuff is in the cloud, but storing a full media collection there is impractical given my internet bandwidth.  If I lose the NAS, then much of the media I've ripped will be lost; since I own all my media on disc it'll just mean re-ripping (this will take weeks-months).
Any advice on how to backup a 20TB disk array?
 
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:21 pm

Waco wrote:
I'd build my own at that price point.  I wouldn't trust my data to a RAID 5 with a standard FS either...

Many folks here seem to have *lots* of hardware sitting around, making this a viable option for them.  But I'd have to buy everything. When I looked into this, it seemed like I'd save about $300-400 on a DIY project, but it could well eat up a week or two of my evenings researching, setting up, and then tuning and testing.  I'd rather pay the cash and have my evenings free.
The only caveat to this is that it seems like a DIY NAS would have much more power, be more flexible, and more upgradeable.  The commercial offerings seem to generally be underpowered for much "real" work.  To compensate for this, I might have to eventually add some type of transcoder box.
 
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:23 pm

End User wrote:
I absolutely love my Synology setup at home. I have an DS1512+ paired with a DX510 (primary backup). Offsite backup is handled by external USB 3.1 Gen 1 drives.

I use SHR. I've had drives fail and I have also expanded the capacity on the fly, I've had no issues (touch wood) installing replacement drives and having the NAS rebuild the array.

The NAS ties in nicely to my UPS via a USB connection.

I'd also look at QNAP products.

Thanks End User.  I especially appreciate hearing your experience with the rebuilds.  Can I ask what type of UPS you use?
 
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:25 pm

Losergamer04 wrote:
I'm loving my Plex app on FreeNAS. I think some nas units in this price range offer it but I don't think that model does.  If you are remotely considering it in the future I recommend you look into it. The transcoding is hardware based in many models and consumers much less power.

This is my one real concern.  I'm only expecting to transcode 1 video at a time, so unless my needs change (they might) then this should work.  There's a good chance a separate transcoder box is in my future.
 
DragonDaddyBear
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:29 pm

Well, maybe but those boxes but some have hardware transcoding or a slightly more powerful system with a Core CPU. I'm rolling my own so I'm only suggesting based off my research before I did my own project. Maybe something like this would work? It's more money but it may serve you better.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00S0XSH ... th=1&psc=1

The system you likened is not a plug and play Plex system and needs some hackery to work. It would struggl even with a single transcode stream.
 
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:49 pm

Losergamer04 wrote:
Well, maybe but those boxes but some have hardware transcoding or a slightly more powerful system with a Core CPU.  I'm rolling my own so I'm only suggesting based off my research before I did my own project. Maybe something like this would work?  It's more money but it may serve you better.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00S0XSH ... th=1&psc=1

The system you likened is not a plug and play Plex system and needs some hackery to work. It would struggl even with a single transcode stream.

Thanks! That QNAP unit looks nice.  Initially I thought i'd need an 8-bay unit, but this is really making me reconsider.
 
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:48 pm

Rapster wrote:
Can I ask what type of UPS you use?

I'm currently using 4 CyberPower units. I'm not saying they are the best but they have performed well, lasted a number of years, and I can order replacement batteries if the need arises.
 
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:00 pm

Rapster wrote:
Waco wrote:
I'd build my own at that price point.  I wouldn't trust my data to a RAID 5 with a standard FS either...

Many folks here seem to have *lots* of hardware sitting around, making this a viable option for them.  But I'd have to buy everything. When I looked into this, it seemed like I'd save about $300-400 on a DIY project, but it could well eat up a week or two of my evenings researching, setting up, and then tuning and testing.  I'd rather pay the cash and have my evenings free.
The only caveat to this is that it seems like a DIY NAS would have much more power, be more flexible, and more upgradeable.  The commercial offerings seem to generally be underpowered for much "real" work.  To compensate for this, I might have to eventually add some type of transcoder box.

I bought mine straight up, and yes, the huge advantage is the flexibility and power. That, and running FreeNAS (which is fairly straightforward) lets you run ZFS, which is awesome. If you care about your data, ZFS is the only filesystem that I'd personally trust. I have about 40 petabytes of ZFS-backed storage at work and it's saved my ass (and by my ass, I mean my user's data) more times than I can count.
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:04 pm

I use QNAP. Their software improved a lot over the years.  I'm not using streaming services over NAS and just enabled SAMBA file sharing. 
 
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:40 pm

Rapster wrote:
All the things you mention are a real concern, especially beer and lightning. ;) Backups are currently a mix of external HDDs and cloud storage.  All the really important stuff is in the cloud, but storing a full media collection there is impractical given my internet bandwidth.  If I lose the NAS, then much of the media I've ripped will be lost; since I own all my media on disc it'll just mean re-ripping (this will take weeks-months).
Any advice on how to backup a 20TB disk array?

Personally I'd build a second server, seed it with your existing data, and keep any new data in sync. I do this at a smaller scale (just a TB or so, hundreds of thousands of smaller files) with a remote server sitting at my parent's place and Resilio Sync/Crashplan. Any large changes would require sneakernet or waiting a month to resync but it's nice to have. If you're bandwidth-strapped, having a second server somewhere else in the house is better than nothing, plus the speeds are great!
Alternatively, keeping cold storage is another option. Making a backup once per year and then storing it away somewhere is usually more feasible than clogging your internet upload speeds to some third party service.

As Waco points out, ZFS is the gold standard of filesystems these days. It lets you do almost anything except shrink a pool. But really, RAID-5 is so 2010. Pooling is the new hip thing, whether it's via ZFS, btrfs, FlexRAID, DrivePool, Drive Bender, etc. They all allow you more flexibility, resiliency, and recoverability than standard RAID. So hot right now.
 
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:54 pm

I wanted to say thank you to all who provided thoughtful advice.  In the end I ordered the Synology 1815+, but am going to build a second server next year after I move and have more space for the option to use ZFS, and have better transcoding capabilities; the Synology will then become a backup server.  The QNAP just about beat out the Synology unit, but in the final analysis I "need" room for 8 bays (vs the QNAP 6 bays) and at that price I would rather just build a server.  Cheers.
 
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:05 am

When you get the point of building your own, start a thread! There are a lot of things you can do wrong without realizing it, especially if you jump into ZFS land.
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:51 am

I thought about using ZFS on my last file server build and chickened out. Just went with straight MD RAID instead.
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:27 am

After losing files to bitrot and/or filesystem corruption in the past, I dove head-first into it. :P

That, and stupid human admin mistakes, once things are set up properly, become easy to fix.
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:35 am

FreeNAS is a viable route to ZFS.

http://www.freenas.org

Edit: one option moving forward is to use the Synology as the primary server (ease of use) and then setup a ZFS based server for backups.
Last edited by End User on Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
DragonDaddyBear
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:38 am

ZFS is awesome.  It's my understanding that Oracle won't open up the license and that's what's really holding it back.  I remember using it with Solaris 10 and zones.  It's awesome stuff.

I'm glad you got what you wanted, Rapster.  Best of luck on your new and future system.
 
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:00 am

Waco wrote:
After losing files to bitrot and/or filesystem corruption in the past, I dove head-first into it. :P

That, and stupid human admin mistakes, once things are set up properly, become easy to fix.

I have had very few (that I know of... heh) instances of bitrot over the years. Lately I have taken to generating MD5 hashes for all files in a directory tree when I back up or archive it, so I can at least *check* for bitrot. Important files are also backed up multiple times, so in theory the chances of all copies being bad should be very small. Also, all of my home file server builds use ECC RAM running at or below stock speed, to minimize the chances of uncorrected bitflip errors.

Losergamer04 wrote:
ZFS is awesome.  It's my understanding that Oracle won't open up the license and that's what's really holding it back.  I remember using it with Solaris 10 and zones.  It's awesome stuff.

The license under which ZFS is distributed *is* Open; the FSF even agrees! The problem is that the license lacks a strong Copyleft provision, which makes it legally incompatible with code licensed under the GPL, in spite of it being Open itself. Source to ZFS can be freely distributed, but distributing ZFS binaries linked with the Linux kernel is arguably a GPL violation... for the Linux kernel, not ZFS!

Canonical has decided to distribute the binaries anyway, as part of Ubuntu. To date nobody has challenged them in court, but they are in a legal grey area with this move.

Distros that build modules from source when you request installation (e.g. Gentoo and derivatives) are in the clear. You're also in the clear if you compile the ZFS modules yourself from the (freely available) source code.
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:30 pm

JBI wrote:
To date nobody has challenged them in court, but they are in a legal grey area with this move.


That's the beauty of it: no one really can. They don't have the standing.

It's really that fundamental: If Alice has a standard contract with Bob, Carl can't sue Alice when she breaks it with Bob just because Carl happens to like using that standard contract himself and he's vaguely worried that all is not well.

Nope, he can't do squat. Only Bob can. And if Bob doesn't care, that's it. Full stop. It's his contract, and his problem.

All of these licenses are contracts layered on top of copyright law. That's *why* we call them licenses: They operate around the concept of privilege. It's fundamentally different than contract, which is predicated upon the concept of promise.

That is, these licenses confer to the licensee, in the manner of a contract in which you make promises, the government-granted privilege of the copyright of the licensor.

But if you are neither one, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter either way, in fact, because if a contractual promise is broken a third party has no standing, and if the privilege is violated, the government has said that only the privileged party (the original author) has legal redress.

I've always thought people have conflated all of this into a false synergy in which together they become more than their constituent parts, but this is just not true.

This is exactly why the FSF and the GNU projects, despite promoting the GPL license, actually require that any author to their various projects personally assign copyright over to those institutions.

Strange, huh? All this hub-bub about licenses and assorted nonsense, but if you actually want to contribute to any of RMS's various efforts *you* don't license crap. It becomes theirs, and *they* license it.

---

The courts, in at least this country, are quite literally constitutionally-bound to evaluate only cases & controversies. It isn't an ironclad law, nothing legal exactly is, but the general principle has to be uphold.

Therefore there is simply no way they are going to drawn into the interminable nerdfest of CDDl v. GPLv2 §2(b) involving no conceivable harm when they can just "NOPE!" their way right out of the entire mess by noting the plaintiff is neither LinuxTM(or whatever) nor Oracle and dismissing under rule 17.
 
Rapster
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Re: Synology 1815+ or other?

Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:25 pm

Waco wrote:
When you get the point of building your own, start a thread!  There are a lot of things you can do wrong without realizing it, especially if you jump into ZFS land.

Thanks Waco.  Will do.

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