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mircato
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high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:05 am

whenever i run any application after windows startup no matter how much time after the startup the disk usage gets to 100% with no actual apps using disk all are around .1 mb/s *it returns to 0-1% after 1-2 mins depending on the app*, if i closed the app and reopened it, it takes like a sec or two to run with no disk usage at all and when i restart the pc and run any app again the same thing happens all over again , this happens with all apps (chrome. leageoflegends, steam, even taskmanager)
my pc specs
cpu ryzen 5 1600
rams 16 gb crucial ballistix sport ddr4 2400
mobo asus prime b350 plus
hdd 1tb western digital wd10eurx

one last thing , crystaldiskinfo states that i have 1934 reallocated sectors which i had in the first 15gb so i isolated the first 20gb and the rest got no badsectors at all
thanks in advance <3
 
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:37 am

Sounds like the Windows disk cache. It's probably pre-fetching stuff it thinks is likely to be needed in the near future. Perfectly normal.

1934 reallocated sectors is not good; it sounds like you've had a head crash which damaged a localized area of the media (possibly due to the drive getting bumped while it was running). If that number has stopped growing and you are not getting read errors it's OK to continue using the drive, but I would not trust it long term.
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mircato
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:44 am

thanks for the quick response <3 . yeah it stopped growing right after i isolated the part with badsectors, yet the high disk usage make the pc almost unusable any idea how to solve this? or a workaround maybe, i'm saving to buy a ssd in near future but right now i can't stand the hdd running like that
 
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:57 am

I think you may be kind of stuck. That particular drive is intended for AV applications (i.e. streaming media), and is optimized for low power usage, not performance. Definitely non-ideal as an OS drive.

Perhaps someone else will jump in with some suggestions for mitigating the issue (I'm more of a Linux guy these days). But the bottom line is you're gonna want that SSD for your OS (and use the current drive just for storing data).
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mircato
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:08 am

okay thanks a bunch, i'll buy an ssd in a while but for now i'll wait to see if there'll be any other suggestions , thanks again <3
sorry for bothering but i got another question , if i bought another hdd for now , will i face the same problem? or it will work good
 
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:39 pm

A 7200 RPM HDD would help some. But if that's gonna mean it takes you longer to save up for the SSD it's not worth it.
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:00 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Sounds like the Windows disk cache.
Sounds like superfetch in action.

I second that the drive is turning bad. How old is it? I would run WD's diagnostic (I think the "quick" test will not erase data, forgot if the extended test does) and see if you can get an error code. If it is still within warranty, use it if you have a spare for backup.

As for getting an SSD, what can your budget spare? Cheap SSDs are now very affordable. If you must have one the next day and the pay cheque has not come yet, perhaps you can wait just a few more days?
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:10 pm

superfetch, prefetching,indexing, and microsoft windows defender are all disabled already :/
 
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:00 pm

You have 16GB RAM, turn off pagefile and also hibernation, which would also turn off fastboot(as it sits inside hibernation file). That can help rule out some issues. Especially the Windows fastboot feature. It causes hard to pin point issues all the time.

You could be just having bad luck with poor critical file fragmentation. Or maybe try booting with network disconnected, maybe its SmartScreen(MS AV) issues.
 
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:51 pm

blahsaysblah wrote:
You have 16GB RAM, turn off pagefile

The other suggestions are fine, but disabling the pagefile is a mistake.
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:15 pm

Absolutely not for multiple reasons. I have a very good and thorough understanding of how its works and all the rare implications it has through no fault of mine. :(

The only safe way to use storage backed memory is when it is the primary source of memory. You obviously haven't faced the true horrible nature of the beast. I will give its name: chaos aka randomness. It is fickle and cruel. It strikes whenever it is the most inconvenient and improbable. Seriously, using a page/swap file is just a clear indication of big failure somewhere in the organization.

At best, it should be opt in on desktops.
 
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:18 pm

blahsaysblah wrote:
Absolutely not for multiple reasons. I have a very good and thorough understanding of how its works and all the rare implications it has through no fault of mine. :(

The only safe way to use storage backed memory is when it is the primary source of memory. You obviously haven't faced the true horrible nature of the beast. I will give its name: chaos aka randomness. It is fickle and cruel. It strikes whenever it is the most inconvenient and improbable. Seriously, using a page/swap file is just a clear indication of big failure somewhere in the organization.

At best, it should be opt in on desktops.

I'm well aware how it works. There's no reason to do so and plenty of reasons to leave it enabled. Just like disabling swap in *nix, it's fraught with peril.
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:19 pm

Waco wrote:
blahsaysblah wrote:
Absolutely not for multiple reasons. I have a very good and thorough understanding of how its works and all the rare implications it has through no fault of mine. :(

The only safe way to use storage backed memory is when it is the primary source of memory. You obviously haven't faced the true horrible nature of the beast. I will give its name: chaos aka randomness. It is fickle and cruel. It strikes whenever it is the most inconvenient and improbable. Seriously, using a page/swap file is just a clear indication of big failure somewhere in the organization.

At best, it should be opt in on desktops.

I'm well aware how it works. There's no reason to do so and plenty of reasons to leave it enabled. Just like disabling swap in *nix, it's fraught with peril.

There are plenty of reasons to do so. It's just a waste of storage. Telling folks to get 8GB of memory is the faulty advice. That's the problem. Any general/semi-professional user getting 16GB RAM should never run into a problem of high memory pressure. It gives any non-technical user a bad user experience that they associate with crappy computer. If someone does run into issue, get more RAM first.

The only reasons to keep it are for kernel dumps and you should not have that issue in first place.

Storage backed RAM is why folks think computers get rusty. They should just be guided to get proper amount of RAM.

Not saying absolutely everyone. Sure, if its not worth it, or cant, to extend life of computer, go ahead and opt-in.

Sorry, ive spent a lot of time, getting applications pinned, kernel re-tuned to hit 5 9s and other requirements during maintenance,... and its near impossible. Proper engineering in first place... Swap/page file should not exist. Except as last resort, (unless costs/architecture requires it as primary RAM) is only time it should be used, not as a default option. As if its a magical cure with no negative implications.

Not saying you are saying that at all. Ive read your other posts on TR.
 
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:47 pm

mircato wrote:
superfetch, prefetching,indexing, and microsoft windows defender are all disabled already :/

So....you disabled pretty much everything Windows would normally use to load and cache frequently-used files in order to speed up the launch of programs and features, and now you're wondering why Windows has to bang on the disk for a while to launch new instances of programs and features?

Windows tries to be like a housekeeper who notices you putting on a business shirt and tie five mornings in a row, so it starts laying those out for you the night before. At first that will result in some wasted effort on weekends, but eventually it picks up on that pattern as well and starts holding the polo shirt and flip-flops in reserve for Saturdays. Disable those predictive features and you have to go to the closet every single morning to find a change of clothes, which takes more time.
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:56 pm

blahsaysblah, I used to think that way, when PCs started getting more RAM and SSDs became a thing around 2008.

Removing VRAM/Swap never helps anything and can hurt. I had my personal laptop set up with lots or RAM (16GB) and no page file, worked great. Then my wife got her hands on it, loaded 32 Chrome tabs and BAM! the PC froze, no response. I suppose it would have come back eventually but she had to reboot it.

Instead of arguing about Chrome memory inefficiency (or how someone could possibly need that many tabs open) I enabled an automatic page file and never experienced any other issues.
 
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:22 pm

No page file is OK if the usage pattern of the system is completely predictable, and the working set never exceeds physical RAM. In order for this to be the case, you need to guarantee that no application on the system will ever have a memory leak, or even an unexpected large spike in memory usage.

Without a page file, running out of physical RAM results in an unstable system. With a page file, the system bogs down, but continues to run. In the former case, you're screwed; in the latter, you may be able to save your work and do a clean shutdown and reboot.

Under conditions of high RAM usage, lack of a page file can also hurt performance relative to a system with a page file, even if an out-of-memory condition never occurs. If the system is prevented from paging out infrequently used data (because there's no page file), it must resort to dropping memory pages containing executable code (maybe even frequently used code!) instead. This will result in that code getting reloaded from disk the next time it is executed. Keeping infrequently used data in RAM also means less RAM available for the disk cache, which (depending on the pattern of disk accesses) can hurt performance significantly.

Saying "just get more RAM" to handle infrequent spikes in RAM usage is also uneconomical, since RAM is a lot more expensive than HDD or SSD space.

Disabling the page file may be beneficial for certain specific use cases. Normal desktop PC usage is not one of them.
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:38 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
blahsaysblah, I used to think that way...

What you describe is not a symptom of memory pressure/starvation in most any modern OS. That sounds like a bug. Chrome is pretty bleeding edge in how it does things. Not first time its caused issues. Mostly with relation to Intel graphics drivers.


JBI, i guess i see it differently. First, while you lose ability to page out working memory you also gain the fact that no transaction will have non-linear and hard to pinpoint failure. Also, most persistent memory is not "code", it is "text". I had a lot more written, but im derailing OP. Definitely wont see eye to eye. I see pagefile as a bandaid. An active measure. For most any regular desktop user, large working memory set is not the norm at all and their behavior should be fixed to use what they have properly.

...
I really think from what OP said, that a clean install of Windows with fastboot(the Windows feature fastboot makes it so that a reboot/power off-on is not what you think it is. it caches stuff for you. it is not pristine new clean environment) off is in order before any more time is spent. Some of the things like search index being disabled could very likely be root cause or making it worse at very least. Get a normal environment. Give the system a night to churn through background setup. Even windows 10 needs a good while after install/setup is complete to be in "real" usable state.
 
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:04 am

blahsaysblah wrote:
Waco wrote:
blahsaysblah wrote:
Absolutely not for multiple reasons. I have a very good and thorough understanding of how its works and all the rare implications it has through no fault of mine. :(

The only safe way to use storage backed memory is when it is the primary source of memory. You obviously haven't faced the true horrible nature of the beast. I will give its name: chaos aka randomness. It is fickle and cruel. It strikes whenever it is the most inconvenient and improbable. Seriously, using a page/swap file is just a clear indication of big failure somewhere in the organization.

At best, it should be opt in on desktops.

I'm well aware how it works. There's no reason to do so and plenty of reasons to leave it enabled. Just like disabling swap in *nix, it's fraught with peril.

There are plenty of reasons to do so. It's just a waste of storage. Telling folks to get 8GB of memory is the faulty advice. That's the problem. Any general/semi-professional user getting 16GB RAM should never run into a problem of high memory pressure. It gives any non-technical user a bad user experience that they associate with crappy computer. If someone does run into issue, get more RAM first.

The only reasons to keep it are for kernel dumps and you should not have that issue in first place.

Storage backed RAM is why folks think computers get rusty. They should just be guided to get proper amount of RAM.

Not saying absolutely everyone. Sure, if its not worth it, or cant, to extend life of computer, go ahead and opt-in.

Sorry, ive spent a lot of time, getting applications pinned, kernel re-tuned to hit 5 9s and other requirements during maintenance,... and its near impossible. Proper engineering in first place... Swap/page file should not exist. Except as last resort, (unless costs/architecture requires it as primary RAM) is only time it should be used, not as a default option. As if its a magical cure with no negative implications.

Not saying you are saying that at all. Ive read your other posts on TR.

If you know your workload perfectly, by all means disable swap.

Nobody here is talking about that very specific situation that affects almost nobody.

Your argument is that you don't need it in a perfect world that doesn't exist...
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mircato
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:32 am

ludi wrote:
mircato wrote:
superfetch, prefetching,indexing, and microsoft windows defender are all disabled already :/

So....you disabled pretty much everything Windows would normally use to load and cache frequently-used files in order to speed up the launch of programs and features, and now you're wondering why Windows has to bang on the disk for a while to launch new instances of programs and features?

Windows tries to be like a housekeeper who notices you putting on a business shirt and tie five mornings in a row, so it starts laying those out for you the night before. At first that will result in some wasted effort on weekends, but eventually it picks up on that pattern as well and starts holding the polo shirt and flip-flops in reserve for Saturdays. Disable those predictive features and you have to go to the closet every single morning to find a change of clothes, which takes more time.

LMAO, i guess you are pretty right but i just followed the instructions people gave me as i got zero experience with microsoft junk, so now what should i enable again in order to get less time for first run?
---
about the paging files it's set to automatic. hibernation is disabled
---
 
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:14 am

blahsaysblah wrote:
JBI, i guess i see it differently. First, while you lose ability to page out working memory you also gain the fact that no transaction will have non-linear and hard to pinpoint failure.

No, instead of slowing down, the whole system just crashes instead. How is that an improvement?

blahsaysblah wrote:
Also, most persistent memory is not "code", it is "text".

Ummm... what?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_segment

In computing, a code segment, also known as a text segment or simply as text, is a portion of an object file or the corresponding section of the program's virtual address space that contains executable instructions.

They are the same thing.

Just stop, before you embarrass yourself further.
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:50 am

Get a Mac.
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:50 am

mircato wrote:
ludi wrote:
mircato wrote:
superfetch, prefetching,indexing, and microsoft windows defender are all disabled already :/

So....you disabled pretty much everything Windows would normally use to load and cache frequently-used files in order to speed up the launch of programs and features, and now you're wondering why Windows has to bang on the disk for a while to launch new instances of programs and features?

Windows tries to be like a housekeeper who notices you putting on a business shirt and tie five mornings in a row, so it starts laying those out for you the night before. At first that will result in some wasted effort on weekends, but eventually it picks up on that pattern as well and starts holding the polo shirt and flip-flops in reserve for Saturdays. Disable those predictive features and you have to go to the closet every single morning to find a change of clothes, which takes more time.

LMAO, i guess you are pretty right but i just followed the instructions people gave me as i got zero experience with microsoft junk, so now what should i enable again in order to get less time for first run?
---
about the paging files it's set to automatic. hibernation is disabled
---

If you did manage to disable Superfetch or Prefetch, it would probably be through the Services control panel applet and/or registry. See here for a step-by-step on both.

Indexing is more optional, what that helps with is finding files faster when doing searches through Windows Explorer. I do that all the time at work, some people never do it. Either way, this may help.

You may need to reboot (and give Windows a couple minutes to settle afterward) before seeing how much difference these options make. Unfortunately there's still a lot of advice archived on the Internet that tends to be biased by experiences people had with Windows Vista, since Microsoft made major changes to Windows memory and disk management in Vista that were problematic at first, and didn't get cleaned up until a later service pack (if at all). By then most everyone was switching to Windows 7.
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:58 am

Yeah, no thanks. You have outdated knowledge and assumptions. You keep yours, ill keep my actual hands on experience/research solving this very problem across multiple unixes. i meant code=execute region, text=data/read only region, in the classical computer science sense.

also, at home, i havnt used a pagefile except one time(DDR2s 8GB limit and poorly written app) for more than a decade. no halts/no unstable PCs. And DDR4s regular PC limit of 64GB is far far beyond what a normal forget about it RAM size of 10-12GB. Let alone 16GB. And no, only have 16/32(but most used by VMs anyway) And i work mostly in 8GB VM. Not complete stranger to low memory but i've hardly if ever had to change workflow.

pagefile opt-in for advanced/not normal folks running very not normal scenarios. Everyone else, should get 16GB RAM and never even think about it. That's whats best for a normal user. To have a good user experience. You run out of storage, you delete apps/old stuff or buy more. You run out of RAM, you change your behavior or buy more. The band-aid of folder/filesystem compression is not worth it, just like pagefiles negatives.
 
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:13 pm

blahsaysblah wrote:
Yeah, no thanks. You have outdated knowledge and assumptions. You keep yours, ill keep my actual hands on experience/research solving this very problem across multiple unixes. i meant code=execute region, text=data/read only region, in the classical computer science sense.

Not sure what "classical computer science sense" you're referring to, but executable code has been the "text" segment back to the early UNIX days (if not longer).

Not that it really matters for the purposes of this discussion; code and read-only data are equivalent as far as the VM manager is concerned. Either way, they're subject to being dropped from physical RAM when there's memory pressure, since they can be reloaded from the original file if needed.
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:06 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Disabling the page file may be beneficial for certain specific use cases. Normal desktop PC usage is not one of them.


Seriously. It's beyond odd this is a discussion in 2017.

A swap is always beneficial, full stop. Even in a system with more RAM than needed, the kernel uses the swap for sake of efficiency. Not all stale data needs to sit in RAM. Why have unused data languishing in RAM when current data could use it? If you're one of those users who doesn't believe in closing apps or has a million tabs open frequently, this speaks directly to your workload. Additionally, avoiding crashes for running out of RAM is important, nobody wants to return to the days of DOS.

The swap has critical uses in other contexts as well. Linux uses the swap to hold ACPI S4 data. Windows uses it to hold the kernel panic dump.

I'm honestly surprised kernel developers still expose this option. It's clear that urban legend, anecdote, and stubbornness fuel reckless advice about the swap. Perhaps it's time for kernel developers to be the parents we deserve and take the choice away from us.
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:22 pm

Ryu Connor wrote:
I'm honestly surprised kernel developers still expose this option. It's clear that urban legend, anecdote, and stubbornness fuel reckless advice about the swap. Perhaps it's time for kernel developers to be the parents we deserve and take the choice away from us.

The Linux kernel gets used in a lot of embedded devices, where there is no (or very limited) writable mass storage available. Even if it was controlled via a kernel build option, this would only prompt the "swap is evil" evangelists to post How-Tos explaining the procedure for building a custom kernel with that option turned off. Being able to run without swap is also essential for "live CD" type applications, where you don't want to touch any of the mass storage devices attached to the system.

Heck, we run systems without swap all the time at my day job. But this is an "appliance" type of use case, where the environment is tightly controlled and nothing gets installed on these systems that isn't part of the official application image (which goes through a massive suite of regression tests before each release). IOW, about the farthest thing you could imagine from the kind of stuff that happens on a typical desktop PC.
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:29 pm

just brew it! wrote:
The Linux kernel gets used in a lot of embedded devices, where there is no (or very limited) writable mass storage available. Even if it was controlled via a kernel build option, this would only prompt the "swap is evil" evangelists to post How-Tos explaining the procedure for building a custom kernel with that option turned off.


Yeah, there are use cases for it. iOS doesn't have a swap, I believe Android is in the same boat. Linux based home routers don't have a swap, albeit I've seen some people work to turn it back on for them. Heh.

I don't know how you fix the problem for Linux. If you tried to push some sort of upstream change to Linus, I suspect he'd have an expletive filled response that detailed why he wouldn't he accept a fix for stupid.

This is my fault though, I should have been more clear with my final statement. When I said that, I was thinking about Windows. Microsoft has distinct versions of their OS for embedded and server to cover corner cases.
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:58 pm

blahsaysblah wrote:
You keep yours, ill keep my actual hands on experience/research solving this very problem across multiple unixes.


What "problem?"

How is simply having a pagefile a problem?

When you disable it, what did you "solve?"

To be clear, the fact that you are paging is perfectly obvious, and crashing is about as "non-linear" as it gets.
 
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:01 pm

Glorious wrote:
blahsaysblah wrote:
You keep yours, ill keep my actual hands on experience/research solving this very problem across multiple unixes.


What "problem?"

How is simply having a pagefile a problem?

When you disable it, what did you "solve?"


Hey, that's a decent chunk of hard drive space! On a modern Windows system, the pagefile could grow to something like 16GB, which isn't small change if your system drive is a tiny SSD.
(Note: this is /sarc)
 
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Re: high disk usage when running apps for the first time after windows startup

Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:04 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
Hey, that's a decent chunk of hard drive space! On a modern Windows system, the pagefile could grow to something like 16GB, which isn't small change if your system drive is a tiny SSD.


In all seriousness though, I haven't even looked at this on Windows in over a decade, but can't you set it to a certain size if you are religiously compelled to mess with it against all reason? That's still got to be much better than just outright disabling it.

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