Personal computing discussed
Moderators: renee, morphine, Steel
just brew it! wrote:Assuming you stick with lower RPM, I don't think you will get a comparable speed boost this time, as I believe the 8TB models use more platters with only modest increase in linear bit density.
Also make sure you get a PMR drive, not SMR. Performance of SMR drives for non-sequential writes is abysmal (they are intended mainly for archival/backup use).
Waco wrote:Two points:
1. Density has gone up quite a bit, so even the lower RPM drives still reach nearly 200 MB/s sequential at the beginning of the platters.
Waco wrote:2. Seagate is the only company shipping SMR drives that are drive-managed. That said, bursty writes (less than 30 GB at a time) on SMR drives are actually quite a bit *better* than traditional HDDs. They just suck if you hammer them.
just brew it! wrote:I will likely be dealing with HGST host-managed SMR drives in the medium-term, unless SMR as a tech falls out of favor.
Vhalidictes wrote:Does anyone have details about the specific terribleness of SMT drives? Other than obviously the horrible re-write speeds.
I'm asking in part because I mostly use my large drive for media storage and playback, the contents haven't changed (other than adding a few large files) for years and I'm looking for a replacement.
Waco wrote:Does "drive-managed" mean they're zeroing out empty space like TRIM on an SSD?just brew it! wrote:Assuming you stick with lower RPM, I don't think you will get a comparable speed boost this time, as I believe the 8TB models use more platters with only modest increase in linear bit density.
Also make sure you get a PMR drive, not SMR. Performance of SMR drives for non-sequential writes is abysmal (they are intended mainly for archival/backup use).
Two points:
1. Density has gone up quite a bit, so even the lower RPM drives still reach nearly 200 MB/s sequential at the beginning of the platters.
2. Seagate is the only company shipping SMR drives that are drive-managed. That said, bursty writes (less than 30 GB at a time) on SMR drives are actually quite a bit *better* than traditional HDDs. They just suck if you hammer them.
evilpaul wrote:Does "drive-managed" mean they're zeroing out empty space like TRIM on an SSD?
just brew it! wrote:evilpaul wrote:Does "drive-managed" mean they're zeroing out empty space like TRIM on an SSD?
No... SMR drives don't have wear leveling issues, but (like SSDs) some trickery is required to make them look like a "normal" random-access disk device. SMR drives are divided into "zones", which are typically a few hundred MB in size. Within a zone, data must be written sequentially. Reads can still be done randomly, like on a normal drive.
So updating a sector requires reading the entire zone into a buffer, replacing the modified sector, then writing the entire zone out again.
In a drive-managed SMR drive, this behavior is hidden from the host system by the drive firmware. Random writes get redirected to a cache; this cache is several GB in size, and typically kept on a non-SMR part of the disk. In the background, the drive performs the (slow) process of updating the SMR zones with the newly written data. Of course, reads of recently written data also need to be redirected to the cache, since that data is not in its final location yet.
There are also host-manged and host-aware SMR drives. Host-managed drives don't have the extra logic to "hide" the underlying storage layout, requiring that the host rearrange write operations to be sequential within each zone; this requires a SMR-aware file system on the host. Host-aware SMR drives allow random writes from the host (using a caching algorithm like drive-managed SMR), but also expose the zone geometry to facilitate more efficient operation for hosts which have SMR-aware file system support.
I suppose you could draw some analogies with SSD TRIM for host-managed and host-aware SMR drives. The host explicitly tells the drive "I am about to start rewriting zone X", which is sort of like TRIMming that entire zone. I believe reading beyond the rewritten portion of a zone on a host-managed drive results in a read error though (not zeroes).
Waco wrote:This is spot-on, but I'll note that the zones are nowhere near a few hundred MB in size on drive-managed drives (think tens of MB). It's not a published spec, but it's been determined experimentally on the commonly available drives via a few very interesting papers (and those numbers hold true from my experiments as well).
just brew it! wrote:That's somewhat surprising. Modern drives store on the order of 2 MB/track; if we assume a 5 platter design (10 surfaces), that's 20 MB per cylinder. With only "tens of MB" per zone, you'd be overlapping only 2-4 cylinders in each SMR zone, leaving a lot of potential capacity on the table.
It'll certainly help performance though, since doing the read-modify-write operation on a zone will be a lot faster.
JustAnEngineer wrote:I'll mention that TiVo Bolt is one of the many applications for which Seagate's problem-plagued SMR drives are totally unusable. After several hours or a few days on-line, the Seagate drive corrupts the file system and makes the DVR completely unusable. I'll be sticking to other brands of drives from now on.
JustAnEngineer wrote:I hate the company because Seagate obfuscates which of their drive models have the inferior SMR technology and which will actually work for common applications. If the fact that certain models or revisions in a series of drives use SMR technology were available in the marketing materials for that drive, I would have been able to avoid the aggravation and lost time by using the models or versions that did not have the problematic SMR.