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Usacomp2k3
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:56 pm

Waco wrote:
I think it's the convenience actually - I bet 90% of consumer drive sales these days are external drives. We're the oddballs.

True. My in-laws have 4, my parents have two. Neither have bought an internal drive ever that wasn’t installed from the OEM.
 
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:12 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
Waco wrote:
I think it's the convenience actually - I bet 90% of consumer drive sales these days are external drives. We're the oddballs.

True. My in-laws have 4, my parents have two. Neither have bought an internal drive ever that wasn’t installed from the OEM.

How does that explain why they are cheaper than internals now, in spite of including a case and power brick?
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:36 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Usacomp2k3 wrote:
Waco wrote:
I think it's the convenience actually - I bet 90% of consumer drive sales these days are external drives. We're the oddballs.

True. My in-laws have 4, my parents have two. Neither have bought an internal drive ever that wasn’t installed from the OEM.

How does that explain why they are cheaper than internals now, in spite of including a case and power brick?


Volume.

If they sell 100x more externals than internals, and only make half the profit on each drive, then they're still making 50x more profit than from their internal drive division.

Also, external drives are front-facing goods. You sell a Seagate external, your friends and relatives see you have a Seagate external, they might think to buy one too. Conversely, if you're Seagate and one of your potential customers buys a WD instead, then /their/ friends and family might now buy WDs instead of Seagates.

The volume is higher, the competition is fiercer, and the loss of mindshare if you lose out to your competitor is more dramatic than with commodity goods like internal hard drives.
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:42 pm

 
Usacomp2k3
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:10 am

So pretty much done. Using Digital Image Mover to finally organize our photo/home video library (It's in the middle of 197k pictures at the moment).
The only thing this can't do that I was hoping it could was run Plex. It just doesn't have the horsepower. Instead, however, I have the desktop setup as the Plex server and it is just using the NAS as a NAS. Gigabit is plenty fast enough, and the desktop is pretty much always on anyway. I haven't tested it, but it should run fine to the AppleTV as well.
In a semi-related note, I just spent $100 on monoprice to buy all new network cables, keystone connectors, wall plates to finally hard-wire everything include 5 rooms, 2 security camera's, and the Access Point. No more random wires running through the ceiling or all on wireless.
 
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:38 am

Voldenuit wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
How does that explain why they are cheaper than internals now, in spite of including a case and power brick?

Volume.

If they sell 100x more externals than internals, and only make half the profit on each drive, then they're still making 50x more profit than from their internal drive division.

Also, external drives are front-facing goods. You sell a Seagate external, your friends and relatives see you have a Seagate external, they might think to buy one too. Conversely, if you're Seagate and one of your potential customers buys a WD instead, then /their/ friends and family might now buy WDs instead of Seagates.

The volume is higher, the competition is fiercer, and the loss of mindshare if you lose out to your competitor is more dramatic than with commodity goods like internal hard drives.

I suppose there may be something to that. However, given that the drives inside are just normal desktop drives, there's no economy of scale advantage on the production side. But I could definitely see them being willing to take thinner profit margins due to intense price competition in the retail space.
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:12 am

just brew it! wrote:
Voldenuit wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
How does that explain why they are cheaper than internals now, in spite of including a case and power brick?

Volume.

If they sell 100x more externals than internals, and only make half the profit on each drive, then they're still making 50x more profit than from their internal drive division.

Also, external drives are front-facing goods. You sell a Seagate external, your friends and relatives see you have a Seagate external, they might think to buy one too. Conversely, if you're Seagate and one of your potential customers buys a WD instead, then /their/ friends and family might now buy WDs instead of Seagates.

The volume is higher, the competition is fiercer, and the loss of mindshare if you lose out to your competitor is more dramatic than with commodity goods like internal hard drives.

I suppose there may be something to that. However, given that the drives inside are just normal desktop drives, there's no economy of scale advantage on the production side. But I could definitely see them being willing to take thinner profit margins due to intense price competition in the retail space.


Well, if you are not capacity constrained, you have fixed costs in your factories and workers. Your BOM costs may scale linearly (less so with volume discounts) per drive, but you are paying your workers $$$/month whether they are making 10 drives or a thousand, and your factory is similarly the same sunk cost whether you make 10 or a thousand.
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:33 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Voldenuit wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
How does that explain why they are cheaper than internals now, in spite of including a case and power brick?

Volume.

If they sell 100x more externals than internals, and only make half the profit on each drive, then they're still making 50x more profit than from their internal drive division.

Also, external drives are front-facing goods. You sell a Seagate external, your friends and relatives see you have a Seagate external, they might think to buy one too. Conversely, if you're Seagate and one of your potential customers buys a WD instead, then /their/ friends and family might now buy WDs instead of Seagates.

The volume is higher, the competition is fiercer, and the loss of mindshare if you lose out to your competitor is more dramatic than with commodity goods like internal hard drives.

I suppose there may be something to that. However, given that the drives inside are just normal desktop drives, there's no economy of scale advantage on the production side. But I could definitely see them being willing to take thinner profit margins due to intense price competition in the retail space.

That simply doesn't make any sense. The external drive contains an internal drive, plus adds a case and power supply. You're literally taking the same thing, adding additional hardware, and selling it for less. There simply is no "volume" that makes that work, logically.

Now, the binning thing I can get. If they take drives that don't pass certain tests, or if they have some stale inventory sitting around where inventory planning did not match orders, then pulling random drives from overstock queues makes sense from a cost-reduction perspective.
 
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:38 pm

End User wrote:


At US$1500 (B&H quote), it looks like building your own might be more economical?

But being compact with their software would certainly bring an advantage...
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:32 pm

Buub wrote:
That simply doesn't make any sense. The external drive contains an internal drive, plus adds a case and power supply. You're literally taking the same thing, adding additional hardware, and selling it for less. There simply is no "volume" that makes that work, logically.

Voldenuit already touched on why - nobody is buying internal drives these days, and external drives carry mindshare that even luddites tack on to. Seriously - even tech enthusiasts these days are shucking external drives to save money. I can't remember the last time I bought a new internal HDD, it had to be...at least 6 years ago. Cost per GB is all that matters in this space for enthusiasts. Up front cost and "my tech friend's brother has one" sells all the rest.
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:34 pm

Airmantharp wrote:
End User wrote:


At US$1500 (B&H quote), it looks like building your own might be more economical?

Far more. My whole build cost less than that (minus storage) and it can handle 24 drives and a hell of a lot more functionality.

That's always the rub with high-end NAS appliances.
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:36 pm

Waco wrote:
Airmantharp wrote:
End User wrote:


At US$1500 (B&H quote), it looks like building your own might be more economical?

Far more. My whole build cost less than that (minus storage) and it can handle 24 drives and a hell of a lot more functionality.

That's always the rub with high-end NAS appliances.

NAS OS?

How much storage do you have in your primary pool?
 
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:51 pm

End User wrote:
NAS OS?

How much storage do you have in your primary pool?

FreeNAS. I'm a ZFS zealot. :) 8 TB of mirrored system pool, 40 TB of media / read-heavy storage.
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:06 pm

The core of your NAS is a 1950X?

What is the additional functionality?
 
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:51 am

Plex generally beyond basic NAS duty. 4K transcoding is pretty painful in terms of CPU horsepower needed.
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:56 pm

just brew it! wrote:
How does that explain why they are cheaper than internals now, in spite of including a case and power brick?


Some of it might be warranty length. While the now-being-phased-out WD Mybooks apparently have a 3-year warranty as the bare NAS drives, the newer and cheaper (at least MSRP) WD Elements seem to be only 2.

Some of it could be binning. For instance the 8TB HGST helium drives found in Mybooks were reported to run at 5400 rpm, while the HGST enterprise drives on which they are based run at 7200.

But I would guess the biggest factor is statistical modelling of failure rates across product lines. On average, consumer externals are likely only used occasionally instead of being in an always-on environment. This is related to the two points above in that fewer drives are RMAd and they can get away with putting lower binned drives that they would otherwise not have a market for.

In reality, most higher end platform drives relegated to external models are probably just as good as their enterprise counterparts (or at least, for my usage, I'd never tell the difference) . I guess I'll see if I'm lucky enough to keep believing this when mine arrive.
 
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:26 pm

Waco wrote:
Plex generally beyond basic NAS duty. 4K transcoding is pretty painful in terms of CPU horsepower needed.

Sorry to be obtuse but I am confused. Plex server and NAS? What does the server boot?
 
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:38 pm

End User wrote:
Waco wrote:
Plex generally beyond basic NAS duty. 4K transcoding is pretty painful in terms of CPU horsepower needed.

Sorry to be obtuse but I am confused. Plex server and NAS? What does the server boot?

FreeNAS is the boot OS. There is a Plex (SMB) plugin.
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:39 pm

DancinJack wrote:
End User wrote:
Waco wrote:
Plex generally beyond basic NAS duty. 4K transcoding is pretty painful in terms of CPU horsepower needed.

Sorry to be obtuse but I am confused. Plex server and NAS? What does the server boot?

FreeNAS is the boot OS. There is a Plex (SMB) plugin.

Interesting.
 
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:16 pm

End User wrote:
Waco wrote:
Plex generally beyond basic NAS duty. 4K transcoding is pretty painful in terms of CPU horsepower needed.

Sorry to be obtuse but I am confused. Plex server and NAS? What does the server boot?

FreeNAS. It comes with all sorts of plugins for various NAS duties. Plex is one of the plugins (though I run a custom jail since the plugin for Plex is usually out of date).
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:58 pm

Got my 3x 8TB WD MyBook externals. According to Crystal disk info they are WD80EFZX, which are purportedly based on the HGST He 10-8 helium platform. Serial numbers indicate warranties through Oct/Nov 2021 (which I will probably negate due to my inexperience at shucking. We'll see how that goes.
 
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Re: Synology Nas advice

Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:07 pm

cynan wrote:
Got my 3x 8TB WD MyBook externals. According to Crystal disk info they are WD80EFZX, which are purportedly based on the HGST He 10-8 helium platform. Serial numbers indicate warranties through Oct/Nov 2021 (which I will probably negate due to my inexperience at shucking. We'll see how that goes.

Same drives my buddy just got from shucking his WD externals for a new NAS.
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