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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:56 pm

Topinio wrote:
Toshiba: compared to the other 2 bigger players, the warranty is more annoying to deal with, and the spec sheets' claimed reliability (AFR/MTBF) is 1/3 lower which doesn't inspire confidence.

I've had excellent luck with semi-recent ones. Maybe they're just more conservative with how they compute AFR/MTBF. Also, aren't current Toshiba 3.5" offerings descended from HGST designs?
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:50 am

lol I think I still have a 15k Cheetah in a Pentium 4 Xeon server stored somewhere in my attic. Might pull it out and run some benchmarks next time I do spring cleaning. From the platter density I bet it'll be slower than 5900rpm drives today.
 
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:45 am

just brew it! wrote:
I've had excellent luck with semi-recent ones. Maybe they're just more conservative with how they compute AFR/MTBF. Also, aren't current Toshiba 3.5" offerings descended from HGST designs?

Not really sure how close the drives themselves are to what HGST would have been doing, do you think they're the same or are related to the Fujitsu tech that Toshiba took on earlier? My query is partly as I'm fairly certain that some of the WD Ultrastar's are closely based on the HGST Ultrastar's (and that other WD Ultrastar's are relabelled WD Gold's).

I thought that when Toshiba got help up into being a viable (if much smaller) 3rd player in the newly-3-way market in 2012 it was with the regulators arranging for them to get Hitachi GST's 3.5-inch disk drive production assets and the required IP (and some WD production assets too), not necessarily the actual drive products.
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:58 am

I'm a fan of WD Red's. Can't go wrong, unless you want super-silent.
 
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:11 am

Topinio wrote:
I thought that when Toshiba got help up into being a viable (if much smaller) 3rd player in the newly-3-way market in 2012 it was with the regulators arranging for them to get Hitachi GST's 3.5-inch disk drive production assets and the required IP (and some WD production assets too), not necessarily the actual drive products.

TBH I'm not sure. But IP is a somewhat vague term; it could've included actual drive designs. It seemed like they had drives on the market pretty quickly after that deal closed -- kind of quick to have designed, tested, and ramped up volume production of their own new designs.
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:59 am

just brew it! wrote:
TBH I'm not sure. But IP is a somewhat vague term; it could've included actual drive designs. It seemed like they had drives on the market pretty quickly after that deal closed -- kind of quick to have designed, tested, and ramped up volume production of their own new designs.

Sure, but I don't know how many 3.5" drives Toshiba were producing before and after this deal. It might have been a huge boost to production, or a small one.

While IP covers a lot and it's a bit unclear in this specific case exactly what it was, I'm pretty sure it wasn't needed for Toshiba to produce 3.5" HDD's per se, but it was needed for the ones they made with the kit they bought. I found a news story which says it was:

  1. Manufacturing equipment and IP for desktop PC drives, DVRs and other consumer applications
  2. Manufacturing equipment for nearline drives for servers.
but that doesn't help much.

Toshiba's own website says it started volume production of 3.5" HDD's in 1987, having been in the HDD business since 1967, and that it shipped 100,000,000 HDDs by 2005. My guess would be that a good many of those 100 million were 3.5" ones, and that by 2012 the total was probably more like 200-250 million.
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:02 pm

IIRC (I may be mistaken) they had exited the commodity 3.5" drive market to focus on 2.5" and enterprise segments prior to the HGST/WD/Toshiba deal.
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:10 pm

So... seems like WD got to keep the enterprise (nearline and MC) 3.5" HGST lines and had to sell on the desktop 3.5" HGST lines to Toshiba (both of these would have been derived from IBM disk technology).

A quick check and it looks like Toshiba was in the 3.5" nearline market but not desktop, probably these drives were based on Fujitsu tech from their own merger a couple of years earlier.
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:18 pm

So the current Toshiba drives would likely be based on Deskstar designs then?

FWIW in spite of the "Deathstar" dumpster fire, Deskstar returned to being a solid product line in subsequent years under HGST. Very reliable drives.
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:21 pm

just brew it! wrote:
So the current Toshiba drives would likely be based on Deskstar designs then?

FWIW in spite of the "Deathstar" dumpster fire, Deskstar returned to being a solid product line in subsequent years under HGST. Very reliable drives.

Definitely. I've owned and rec'd them for a good five years now without any issues. Granted, that's only in the tens of drives, but still!
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:24 pm

just brew it! wrote:
So the current Toshiba drives would likely be based on Deskstar designs then?

FWIW in spite of the "Deathstar" dumpster fire, Deskstar returned to being a solid product line in subsequent years under HGST. Very reliable drives.

I think so, Hitachi didn't IIRC have any desktop drives before the creation of HGST via bringing in the IBM hard disk business.
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:28 pm

Topinio wrote:
I think so, Hitachi didn't IIRC have any desktop drives before the creation of HGST via bringing in the IBM hard disk business.

"Travelstar" drives included in that? Everything else I can remember was an Ultrastar.
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:57 pm

DancinJack wrote:
Topinio wrote:
I think so, Hitachi didn't IIRC have any desktop drives before the creation of HGST via bringing in the IBM hard disk business.

"Travelstar" drives included in that? Everything else I can remember was an Ultrastar.

Weren't the Travelstar's all 2.5" drives?

HGST certainly owned the 2.5" segment immediately post-creation, but I have no idea whether they continued one or both predecessors' 2.5" lines or if they merged the two sets of technologies.
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:11 pm

Topinio wrote:
DancinJack wrote:
Topinio wrote:
I think so, Hitachi didn't IIRC have any desktop drives before the creation of HGST via bringing in the IBM hard disk business.

"Travelstar" drives included in that? Everything else I can remember was an Ultrastar.

Weren't the Travelstar's all 2.5" drives?

HGST certainly owned the 2.5" segment immediately post-creation, but I have no idea whether they continued one or both predecessors' 2.5" lines or if they merged the two sets of technologies.

A lot of HP laptops I've seen from around that time had Toshiba 2.5" drives in them.
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:21 pm

just brew it! wrote:
A lot of HP laptops I've seen from around that timeshare had Toshiba 2.5" drives in them.

Data I just found says IBM 45% + Hitachi 17%; Toshiba 25% + Fujitsu 12% ... so 62:37 split
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:13 pm

Topinio wrote:
Weren't the Travelstar's all 2.5" drives?

HGST certainly owned the 2.5" segment immediately post-creation, but I have no idea whether they continued one or both predecessors' 2.5" lines or if they merged the two sets of technologies.

Yes, they were all 2.5" but I was using the separation of "consumer" and "enterprise" to kinda illustrate that maybe they had "desktop" (read: consumer) drives before the HGST changeover.
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:14 pm

DancinJack wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
So the current Toshiba drives would likely be based on Deskstar designs then?

FWIW in spite of the "Deathstar" dumpster fire, Deskstar returned to being a solid product line in subsequent years under HGST. Very reliable drives.

Definitely. I've owned and rec'd them for a good five years now without any issues. Granted, that's only in the tens of drives, but still!


Same here, iv had good experience with Toshiba drives and I find I can usually find them for a little less than the competition. For NAS drives iv always used WD Red drives and have had good experiences with them.
 
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:55 am

derFunkenstein wrote:
My backups are on an HGST 6TB drive I bought in November. It's unplugged and turned off except for when I'm backing up. It's on-site still, so that's not great, but it's as good as I can do without "cloud" backups.


Hard drives being so cheap as it is, better invest in a mirror 6TB, maybe of some other "cheaper" brand, just in case. You will thank yourself when disaster strikes. I would hate to lose that much data, and the sinking feeling in my heart when that happens is not something I want to experience if I can avoid that.
 
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:31 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
derFunkenstein wrote:
My backups are on an HGST 6TB drive I bought in November. It's unplugged and turned off except for when I'm backing up. It's on-site still, so that's not great, but it's as good as I can do without "cloud" backups.


Hard drives being so cheap as it is, better invest in a mirror 6TB, maybe of some other "cheaper" brand, just in case. You will thank yourself when disaster strikes. I would hate to lose that much data, and the sinking feeling in my heart when that happens is not something I want to experience if I can avoid that.

Unfortunately the drive I have is up over $300 on Amazon. So is the 8TB variant. Price isn't really any better at Newegg. Doesn't feel all that cheap when I paid only $170 at Black Friday.

Also I should mention that all I've got on it is ROMs and MP3s. The MP3's are replicated across a couple drives along with the 50 MB of actual important documents I have.
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:32 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Hard drives being so cheap as it is, better invest in a mirror 6TB, maybe of some other "cheaper" brand, just in case. You will thank yourself when disaster strikes. I would hate to lose that much data, and the sinking feeling in my heart when that happens is not something I want to experience if I can avoid that.

Unfortunately the drive I have is up over $300 on Amazon. So is the 8TB variant. Price isn't really any better at Newegg. Doesn't feel all that cheap when I paid only $170 at Black Friday.

There's really no need for the mirror to be the same make/model, as long as it isn't slower. Some people even argue that it is better to have a different make/model (or even brand), since any design flaws which might cause the drive to die prematurely likely won't be shared between them.
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:13 am

just brew it! wrote:
Some people even argue that it is better to have a different make/model (or even brand), since any design flaws which might cause the drive to die prematurely likely won't be shared between them.


I bet some data center storage admins swear by this practice. Makes perfect, logical sense. In fact, I would call it a stroke of genius. Tantamount to the age-old adage "Don't put all your eggs in one basket".
 
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:34 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Some people even argue that it is better to have a different make/model (or even brand), since any design flaws which might cause the drive to die prematurely likely won't be shared between them.

I bet some data center storage admins swear by this practice. Makes perfect, logical sense. In fact, I would call it a stroke of genius. Tantamount to the age-old adage "Don't put all your eggs in one basket".

...and while I have not experienced it personally, a co-worker told me about an incident which happened a number years back, before I joined the company. In a cost-saving measure, a large customer installed -- against the advice they were given -- thousands of identical desktop (consumer) hard drives across their entire (rather large) server farm. A year or two later, these drives started to experience unusually high failure rates. The failure rate accelerated rapidly from there, and in spite of a high degree of redundancy built in to the system it became a race against time to replace all of the failing drives before the redundancy was overwhelmed.
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:10 am

just brew it! wrote:
There's really no need for the mirror to be the same make/model, as long as it isn't slower. Some people even argue that it is better to have a different make/model (or even brand), since any design flaws which might cause the drive to die prematurely likely won't be shared between them.

That's a fair point. The idea is just to keep it offline when not actively copying, anyway.
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:02 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
I bet some data center storage admins swear by this practice. Makes perfect, logical sense. In fact, I would call it a stroke of genius. Tantamount to the age-old adage "Don't put all your eggs in one basket".

When it's possible, it is absolutely advisable to do this.
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:55 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
There's really no need for the mirror to be the same make/model, as long as it isn't slower. Some people even argue that it is better to have a different make/model (or even brand), since any design flaws which might cause the drive to die prematurely likely won't be shared between them.

That's a fair point. The idea is just to keep it offline when not actively copying, anyway.

In the past, there was some legitimate concern about different makes/models of the same advertised capacity having slightly different block counts. This would cause problems in RAID configurations if you tried to add a drive to an array that was originally built with slightly larger drives. It seems like around the time we moved to terabyte (and beyond) drive capacities, manufacturers standardized the HDD capacity numbers; I don't think I've seen this sort of capacity discrepancy on mechanical HDDs in quite a few years.
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:40 pm

just brew it! wrote:
In the past, there was some legitimate concern about different makes/models of the same advertised capacity having slightly different block counts. This would cause problems in RAID configurations if you tried to add a drive to an array that was originally built with slightly larger drives. It seems like around the time we moved to terabyte (and beyond) drive capacities, manufacturers standardized the HDD capacity numbers; I don't think I've seen this sort of capacity discrepancy on mechanical HDDs in quite a few years.

SSDs and thumb drives are still plagued with this, though. I even have 3 thumb drives from the same product line bought in a quantity of 3, all at once, that are 3 different sizes.
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:04 pm

Waco wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
In the past, there was some legitimate concern about different makes/models of the same advertised capacity having slightly different block counts. This would cause problems in RAID configurations if you tried to add a drive to an array that was originally built with slightly larger drives. It seems like around the time we moved to terabyte (and beyond) drive capacities, manufacturers standardized the HDD capacity numbers; I don't think I've seen this sort of capacity discrepancy on mechanical HDDs in quite a few years.

SSDs and thumb drives are still plagued with this, though. I even have 3 thumb drives from the same product line bought in a quantity of 3, all at once, that are 3 different sizes.

...and that's why I qualified my observation with "...on mechanical HDDs..." :wink:

And yeah, I've seen the weird thumb drive capacity discrepancy thing too, on drives of the same model.
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:06 pm

It is particularly fun when the OEM has a utility that just like DD's the entire thing and then AS RELEASED they have ssd/flash that doesn't match.

I.e. their utility fails if you take its image from the biggest drive device and then try to use it on devices with smaller drives. (By only a handful of blocks!)

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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:57 pm

I assume that's due to provisioning and killing bad blocks on flash memory?
 
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Re: Blackblaze's 2018 HDD stats

Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:01 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
I assume that's due to provisioning and killing bad blocks on flash memory?

Yes, but generally (just like on HDDs) they're set at fixed sizes and sold as that. SSDs (real SATA/SAS drives) rarely exhibit this, but thumb drives make very little attempt to hit a set capacity. Some end up larger by a significant amount, even in the same model line.
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