TR Forums

just brew it! wrote:

Will they really cease, or will they just cease to be free for the people who decide not (or can't figure out how) to roll back after it happens? That's a pretty important distinction, given what we really care about is the annoyance factor of the aggressive updater!

Oh. noes.

Microsoft couldn't think it could get away with that, could it? Surely it'd be too risky, both in potentially incurring legal entanglements with user classes and regulators, and in putting the very concept of EULA's as we know them before the judiciary.

Almost hoping it is tried now, will bring popcorn.

... and it gets worse: Microsoft has begun to auto-schedule PCs to upgrade to Windows 10 with or without consent from end users.

With consent, because the big prominent OK button will count as consent; without because this is being scheduled for the very near future and it's certain that there will be machines where the user clicks OK and the administrator next sees the box with Windows 10 on it (kids or parents' machines, yay).

There is an opportunity to opt out, if the user sees and understands the implications of the message, reads it all, clicks through and selects to cancel the scheduled upgrade -- so some wriggle room in any class action...

Plenty more accidental OS upgrades to come then (plenty more advertising information available to Microsoft). As the article says

If you wish to stay with your older OS, however, you should check your Windows 10 update pop-up daily to ensure that it does not force you to upgrade without your knowledge.

Time to go around to all my PCs and family's PC's and just disable updates all together and do it manually.

anotherengineer wrote:

Time to go around to all my PCs and family's PC's and just disable updates all together and do it manually.

Or you can try this "Never 10" utility. It seems to have worked for me.

localhostrulez wrote:

It's more setting things up - ex. You need CLI to set up nvidia drivers, and you need prereqs (that they don't tell you about) to install VMware workstation.

That's all dependent on the distro. openSuSE (and many others) for example does not need to drop to cli to install nvidia or ATI proprietary drivers and VMware workstation installs without issue as well. Those shortcomings are the the distorts fault, not linux's.

Mr Bill wrote:

anotherengineer wrote:

Time to go around to all my PCs and family's PC's and just disable updates all together and do it manually.

Or you can try this "Never 10" utility. It seems to have worked for me.

This ongoing kerfuffle is getting really annoying. Everyone on Windows 7/8 has two options:

1) Upgrade to Windows 10 - it is a solid OS
2) Never 10 gets rid of the nagging update message

To all the complainers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRifKEf0xr8

End User wrote:

This ongoing kerfuffle is getting really annoying. Everyone on Windows 7/8 has two options:

1) Upgrade to Windows 10 - it is a solid OS

Except when you lose the capability of running your installed software when it removes it for you.

2) Never 10 gets rid of the nagging update message

Should not even be needed. Like your dates say "No, means no." It doesn't not mean just not now, it does not mean later, it means "NO!". All it should take is "Would you like to upgrade to Windows 10?" with three selections, Yes, let's do it now, Yes, but remind me later, and No, PFO and never hassle me again.

End User wrote:

Mr Bill wrote:

anotherengineer wrote:

Time to go around to all my PCs and family's PC's and just disable updates all together and do it manually.

Or you can try this "Never 10" utility. It seems to have worked for me.

This ongoing kerfuffle is getting really annoying. Everyone on Windows 7/8 has two options:

1) Upgrade to Windows 10 - it is a solid OS
2) Never 10 gets rid of the nagging update message

To all the complainers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRifKEf0xr8

It's more about the principle of the thing, I think (or at least it is for me). I don't want to support a company that does such stuff, even if I could arrange to make it not a big deal for myself.

Deanjo wrote:

That's all dependent on the distro. openSuSE (and many others) for example does not need to drop to cli to install nvidia or ATI proprietary drivers and VMware workstation installs without issue as well. Those shortcomings are the the distorts fault, not linux's.

While factually correct, that doesn't help the user who is looking for a single distro that "just works" for their use case, and can't find one because every distro is missing something that they consider essential.

That said, I find the resistance to learning CLI here somewhat puzzling, given that this is a tech enthusiasts' forum.

Sure, you don't want to teach your 80-year-old grandparents CLI, but you probably don't want them trying to upgrade their GPU drivers even with a GUI installer!

Deanjo wrote:

End User wrote:

This ongoing kerfuffle is getting really annoying. Everyone on Windows 7/8 has two options:

1) Upgrade to Windows 10 - it is a solid OS

Except when you lose the capability of running your installed software when it removes it for you.

I would focus on that piece of software rather than Windows.

Deanjo wrote:

End User wrote:

2) Never 10 gets rid of the nagging update message

Should not even be needed. Like your dates say "No, means no." It doesn't not mean just not now, it does not mean later, it means "NO!". All it should take is "Would you like to upgrade to Windows 10?" with three selections, Yes, let's do it now, Yes, but remind me later, and No, PFO and never hassle me again.

I totally agree with you. Fortunately there is a solution the takes care of the problem. That is all I care about.

If I let everything that bothers me about Microsoft get to me I would disappear in a puff of smoke. Ultimately my needs win out over Microsoft's stupidity.

End User wrote:

Deanjo wrote:

End User wrote:

This ongoing kerfuffle is getting really annoying. Everyone on Windows 7/8 has two options:

1) Upgrade to Windows 10 - it is a solid OS

Except when you lose the capability of running your installed software when it removes it for you.

I would focus on that piece of software rather than Windows.

Huh? This seems like a variation of "blame the victim" to me.

End User wrote:

Deanjo wrote:

End User wrote:

2) Never 10 gets rid of the nagging update message

Should not even be needed. Like your dates say "No, means no." It doesn't not mean just not now, it does not mean later, it means "NO!". All it should take is "Would you like to upgrade to Windows 10?" with three selections, Yes, let's do it now, Yes, but remind me later, and No, PFO and never hassle me again.

I totally agree with you. Fortunately there is a solution the takes care of the problem. That is all I care about.

If I let everything that bothers me about Microsoft get to me I would disappear in a puff of smoke. Ultimately my needs win out over Microsoft's stupidity.

Tolerating bad behavior encourages more bad behavior.

End User wrote:

Deanjo wrote:

End User wrote:

This ongoing kerfuffle is getting really annoying. Everyone on Windows 7/8 has two options:

1) Upgrade to Windows 10 - it is a solid OS

Except when you lose the capability of running your installed software when it removes it for you.

I would focus on that piece of software rather than Windows.

Ummm ya, not a real option for a lot of software and a lot of it specialized. It's not up to MS to dictate that because they broke compatibility that the only solution is to remove the software that won't work especially since they are still supporting older versions of the OS for the next few years. It was MS that broke compatibly not the software publisher.

just brew it! wrote:

Huh? This seems like a variation of "blame the victim" to me.

That sounds far too creepy and inappropriate to apply to a software discussion.

Keep in mind that the Windows 10 preview was available way back in October of 2014. Software developers probably got earlier builds earlier in 2014 to test their software against. If, in 2016, my software won't run under a new OS I'm going to first make sure I have the latest update. Perhaps I need to buy the current version. If I'm using the current version I would file a bug report with the software manufacturer. The software manufacturer may have to sort out the issue (in conjunction with Microsoft if necessary).

If a current/recent software does not run under Windows 10 today then that is on the software manufacturer, not Microsoft.

just brew it! wrote:

Tolerating bad behavior encourages more bad behavior.

Damn right. For the vast majority of those who have not upgraded there is no reason not to do so.

So what flavor of BSD are you using?

Topinio wrote:

... and it gets worse: Microsoft has begun to auto-schedule PCs to upgrade to Windows 10 with or without consent from end users.

With consent, because the big prominent OK button will count as consent; without because this is being scheduled for the very near future and it's certain that there will be machines where the user clicks OK and the administrator next sees the box with Windows 10 on it (kids or parents' machines, yay).

There is an opportunity to opt out, if the user sees and understands the implications of the message, reads it all, clicks through and selects to cancel the scheduled upgrade -- so some wriggle room in any class action...

Plenty more accidental OS upgrades to come then (plenty more advertising information available to Microsoft). As the article says

If you wish to stay with your older OS, however, you should check your Windows 10 update pop-up daily to ensure that it does not force you to upgrade without your knowledge.

OK, why does this remind me of the multitude of download buttons on some sites, only one of which isn't a bomb?

And they wonder why I keep updates off on all my machines - desktop's still on 7 (because I'm lazy/10 won't improve anything there), laptop's on 10 (because dpi scaling + CPPC + battery life). You abuse that privilege, you loose it. I've had updates disabled for years now because I demand my stuff work for me, end of story. I'm torn between upgrading because 10 helps battery life and a few things over 7, and staying on 7 simply to spite Microsoft's attitude here.

End User wrote:

If a current/recent software does not run under Windows 10 today then that is on the software manufacturer, not Microsoft.

Sure. Problem is, it's still reality. As an example - have you ever seen any of the expensive as hell manufacturing equipment/other oddball stuff that factories use, that works well for decades except for the computer it needs to run? I have. Your options are replace an $100 million machine (not an exaggeration in many, many cases, this stuff can easily be 50 years old and run fine) that has parts available/otherwise has no reason to be replaced, or simply keep a few spare XP boxes around (not on the internet) to run it (which works just fine). At that point, replacing the machine becomes a financially irresponsible matter more than anything else. Thus, I'm not surprised in the least that whenever someone has manufacturing or CNC equipment, I usually see a few XP (or older) boxes sitting around to run it. It's literally just a tool, same as the CNC machine itself, so who cares?

On that note... I have yet to see a single company using 10, and any significant amount running 8.x - they're all solidly on 7. 7 is the new XP. I can't help but wonder how much higher the enterprise adoption rate would've been if they'd focused on making a good OS rather than annoying the hell out of people...

localhostrulez wrote:

Sure. Problem is, it's still reality. Have you ever seen any of the expensive as hell manufacturing equipment/other oddball stuff that factories use, that works well for decades except for the computer it needs to run? I have. Your options are replace an $100 million machine (not an exaggeration in many, many cases, this stuff can easily be 50 years old and run fine) that has parts available/otherwise has no reason to be replaced, or simply keep a few spare XP boxes around (not on the internet) to run it (which works just fine). At that point, replacing the machine becomes a financially irresponsible matter more than anything else. Thus, I'm not surprised in the least that whenever someone has manufacturing or CNC equipment, chances are there are a few XP (or older) boxes sitting around to run it. It's literally just a tool, same as the CNC machine itself, so who cares?

Why are you droning on about enterprise shops? Windows 7 Enterprise and Windows Embedded 7 do not have this auto update problem. Windows XP definitely does not.

End User wrote:

Why are you droning on about enterprise shops? Windows 7 Enterprise and Windows Embedded 7 do not have this auto update problem. Windows XP definitely does not.

You've still got all the small- and medium-sized businesses that don't have a dedicated IT organization that re-images everything, and just run vanilla OEM Windows that came pre-installed.

just brew it! wrote:

End User wrote:

Why are you droning on about enterprise shops? Windows 7 Enterprise and Windows Embedded 7 do not have this auto update problem. Windows XP definitely does not.

You've still got all the small- and medium-sized businesses that don't have a dedicated IT organization that re-images everything, and just run vanilla OEM Windows that came pre-installed.

Word. I work for a State agency and we've got about 150 seats. No Win Enterprise products anywhere in our system; we're straigbt Pro. Only time I see Enterprise is on the laptop a certain Federal Agency (of whose IT incompetence I've made many comments) issues me to do things "their way".

just brew it! wrote:

End User wrote:

Why are you droning on about enterprise shops? Windows 7 Enterprise and Windows Embedded 7 do not have this auto update problem. Windows XP definitely does not.

You've still got all the small- and medium-sized businesses that don't have a dedicated IT organization that re-images everything, and just run vanilla OEM Windows that came pre-installed.

The incompetence of said organizations is striking. They deserve everything they get.

just brew it! wrote:

End User wrote:

Why are you droning on about enterprise shops? Windows 7 Enterprise and Windows Embedded 7 do not have this auto update problem. Windows XP definitely does not.

You've still got all the small- and medium-sized businesses that don't have a dedicated IT organization that re-images everything, and just run vanilla OEM Windows that came pre-installed.

Not only that, but it's often easier for them to pay to have email, et al hosted rather than running their own server. Personell costs money, and these businesses often don't need anything oddball. I doubt they want to pay for an IT person, Microsoft subscriptions, etc if they don't have to. They have better crap to worry about. I was thinking about the same thing with the company my mom works for - 200 people or so, several physical sites, and lots of people work from home. No IT people whatsoever, no servers, nothing. They're definitely big enough that they need something (a file server at the least, it's a mess right now), but they're still probably better off with a boxed/hosted solution than running their own - especially because their needs are pretty typical anyways. Same thing I was talking about in another thread.

So by all means, EU, if you think the local coffee shop deserves a mess because they can't afford a dedicated IT manager (why would they?), and Windows 10 came in and stomped over their POS/inventory setup, then I'd like to know what world you're living in... I think Microsoft should leave them (and all the home users) the hell alone (i.e. ask about 10, and have an easy "NO" option), everyone's happy, done. Super easy, helps productivity, etc. Making a good product is never a bad way to get happy users.

End User wrote:

The incompetence of said organizations is striking. They deserve everything they get.

It must be nice to live in a world such as yours, where everything is magically compatible with Win10.

My work lappy is capped at Win7 because the special software we need to run to mesh with our Federal brethren doesn't know of an OS newer than 7SP1.

Captain Ned wrote:

It must be nice to live in a world such as yours, where everything is magically compatible with Win10.

My work lappy is capped at Win7 because the special software we need to run to mesh with our Federal brethren doesn't know of an OS newer than 7SP1.

Well then, your Federal brethren have until 2020 to get their ass in gear http://windows.microsoft.com/en-ca/windows/lifecycle. I'm sure they are aware of this.

7SP1 is the new XPSP3.

Edit: When did lauding incompetence become a thing?

End User wrote:

Captain Ned wrote:

It must be nice to live in a world such as yours, where everything is magically compatible with Win10.

My work lappy is capped at Win7 because the special software we need to run to mesh with our Federal brethren doesn't know of an OS newer than 7SP1.

Well then, your Federal brethren have until 2020 to get their ass in gear http://windows.microsoft.com/en-ca/windows/lifecycle. I'm sure they are aware of this.

7SP1 is the new XPSP3.

Edit: When did lauding incompetence become a thing?

It's not "lauding incompetence". It's "living in the real world, where logistics and/or money sometimes prevent the technically correct approach from being a viable option".

End User wrote:

The incompetence of said organizations is striking. They deserve everything they get.

Yes, the average small business doesn't have the kind of IT knowledge on-staff that is obvious to us here on TR. Why should that mean they deserve anything? There are plenty of people out there who want to do something in business and don't want to have to go learn about all the IT or payroll someone to run it. Microsoft's job should be to make this possible, not to punish the average joe for thinking that Microsoft's job should be to make this possible.

End User wrote:

Well then, your Federal brethren have until 2020 to get their ass in gear http://windows.microsoft.com/en-ca/windows/lifecycle. I'm sure they are aware of this.

Shouldn't Microsoft wait until late 2019 to be so pushy about upgrades then? Win7 is not EOL yet, and the chances that any given piece of software (yes, even legacy government stuff) will be Win10-compatible in 2020 are much higher than presently. You even say you're sure the devs are aware they've got a deadline there. It's still a few years away though - saying "nah, actually it's right now" is a good way to make a lot of people very angry at you.

End User wrote:

Edit: When did lauding incompetence become a thing?

That's not lauding incompetence, that's admitting that incompetence exists and that there are people out there who have to deal with it. Most often, the incompetent ones aren't the ones being left with huge messes here - it's random other people who are just trying to get their work done, and their lives would be much easier if MS would leave everyone to use their non-EOL OS in peace. Really, even by your logic (which is still very aggressive), MS should !@#$ off and not do anything resembling this for another 3 years.

just brew it! wrote:

It's not "lauding incompetence". It's "living in the real world, where logistics and/or money sometimes prevent the technically correct approach from being a viable option".

Not only that, but a word on the "technically correct" part - what do you define as that? Does technically correct mean doing everything possible to have the production machines on Windows 10, and dealing with the rapid upgrades? Or does it mean upgrading every so often, but making damned sure that the software is stable and tested (which inevitably means not being on the cutting edge)? Or does it mean running whatever the vendor supports, which is often a bit outdated but functional enough?

Yeah, I guess I should've said "technically correct, according to Microsoft"!

For a legacy system that isn't exposed to the Internet, running a single-purpose proprietary application, the "technically correct" approach (Microsoft's desires notwithstanding) could very well be to run Windows XP... or even MS-DOS.

just brew it! wrote:

Yeah, I guess I should've said "technically correct, according to Microsoft"!

For a legacy system that isn't exposed to the Internet, running a single-purpose proprietary application, the "technically correct" approach (Microsoft's desires notwithstanding) could very well be to run Windows XP... or even MS-DOS.

This is the crux of it: technically correct is running the qualified OS, i.e. one which has been qualified by the hardware OEM(s) and any involved IT professionals involved to operate the hardware to requirements, and is supported by the ISVs of the required software (or at least tested by any involved IT professionals to reasonable length and shown to work).

Microsoft's pre-upgrade checks are insufficient because they inevitably fail to approach the edges of the configuration space.

End User wrote:

Well then, your Federal brethren have until 2020 to get their ass in gear http://windows.microsoft.com/en-ca/windows/lifecycle. I'm sure they are aware of this.

7SP1 is the new XPSP3.

Edit: When did lauding incompetence become a thing?

2020.

Is not 2020 last time I checked, but then I am not incompetent at knowing the year.

XP SP3 was legit up to 2014-04-08 on anything, and still is on non-networked systems which require it (modulo sufficient precautions around user access). Windows 7 is legit until 2020-01-17 and Windows 8.1 until 2023-01-10 so by definition running it until then cannot in any way be considered by a competent person to be incompetent.

Well, OK. I run Windows 10 and there is not much wrong with it, however I would not encourage anyone for an upgrade without two severe warnings (1. you have to fight the OS for your privacy 2. not everything will work). Also, I run Windows on a virtual machine, the hypervisor is Linux and I have access to more computers at home. Meaning, borked Windows it not a big issue for me.

By 2020 Linux will be able to host Win7 Pro and protect it from viruses and then, "Bob's your uncle".

Mr Bill wrote:

"Bob's your uncle"

"et voilà!" or Robert is your mother's brother