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Glorious
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Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:15 am

Does anyone have any idea why the setting in power profiles (I set it to disable in all of them) doesn't actually disable the ability of waketimers to wake a windows 10 computer from sleep?

I don't mean the microsoft update one, I can live with that. I mean vendor applications that set an infinity of waketimers for unknown reasons and thus the computer can't sleep for more than a minute at a time.

This manifests itself in that powercfg -lastwake doesn't specify a source, windows event log is full of "unknown source" records, powercfg -devicequery wake_armed only lists the ethernet adapters (which is intended, and have been eliminated as the cause) and the powercfg -waketimers lists numerous timers for the (broken) vendor application. The problem exists with the vendor application installed, and not without it.

The vendor shouldn't be this retarded, I agree, but the timeline for them fixing it in this case is months to possibly never.

My question is why offer me the ability to "disable" waketimers if it clearly doesn't disable them at all?

Is there something I'm missing? Is there any other solution to this?
 
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:09 am

The recent Windows 10 Anniversary update was causing sleeping issues for my system. I decided to look at powercfg and found that the NIC was source of the wakes. I took a closer look at the NIC and found that update for some reason decided to update the drivers. The default NIC profile for new drivers had Wake-On LAN enabled for some silly reason. Disabling Wake-On LAN resolved the sleeping issues.

I suspect that it might be a similar case for you.
Last edited by Krogoth on Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Glorious
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:31 am

Krogoth wrote:
I suspect that it might be a similar case for you.


Glorious wrote:
powercfg -devicequery wake_armed only lists the ethernet adapters (which is intended, and have been eliminated as the cause)


Glorious wrote:
The problem exists with the vendor application installed, and not without it.


I post here because I'm trying to attract the attention of enthusiasts who have an appreciation for how other enthusiasts have not only googled the generic form of their problem, but have actually taken steps towards troubleshooting that specific problem.

In my case, I've identified what I'm pretty sure the problem revolves around, and it's not unique to this obscure program either: people who appear to be informed have reported how teamviewer and spotify have, either now or recently, used waketimers that somehow seemed to override the OS's "disable" waketimer settings.

The program I'm dealing with creates umpteen waketimers that expire all the fricking time, both on the process and service side of the application, which directly correlates to how the system wakes up almost immediately.

Wake-On-Lan, which is used, correlates to something very different: an actual named sourced both in powercfg -lastwake and in the event log.

I also established, as I said, that the problem exists with WoL disabled and does not exist without the application. I didn't explicitly mention that I did so with mutual exclusion, but hey, I am now.
 
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:47 am

Glorious wrote:
*Inserts verbose way of saying "I have already looked at that" while acting like a smart-a$$*


That approach is a great way to attract helpful feedback. :roll:
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Glorious
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:09 am

Krogoth wrote:
That approach is a great way to attract helpful feedback.


Your "feedback" not only wasn't helpful, it wasn't actually feedback either: you weren't really responding to my post because you clearly didn't actually read it.

It's not that you missed one or two lines that directly impinged upon the validity of your suspicions, although you did, it's also that you bluntly ignored what I was actually asking about not just in the title, but in the first sentence, the body, and the penultimate (and thus the non-rhetorical) conclusion: waketimers.

Now, if you had acknowledged that, even to say that perhaps I am mistaken as to my exclusion of other factors, that maybe I'm being overly certain that I've properly excluded other possibilities, that's one thing. I can, (and historically have) taken such criticism in stride and even contritely edited my post to accommodate that.

But this? I suspect that you, not having any idea what a "waketimer" was, decided to opine anyway without even giving the fullness of the post a glance to see if context might give you a clue first.

I'd accept you handwaving it into a red herring before I could accept it you ignoring that I ever even said it.
 
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:40 am

I take it you've gone into Power Options (standard Control Panel) and pored over the "Advanced Settings"?  Unfortunately I don't have a W10 machine accessible at the moment to go more in-depth.

As you've touched on, it might not be an OS component causing the issue.  On my main rig under W7, Samsung Magician (all versions tested) repeatedly wakes the system if running in the background.
 
Glorious
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:00 am

The Egg wrote:
I take it you've gone into Power Options (standard Control Panel) and pored over the "Advanced Settings"? Unfortunately I don't have a W10 machine accessible at the moment to go more in-depth.


Yeah, for each power profileplan there is a setting "sleep" with the sub-setting "Allow wake timers".

The headline picture of this article shows it:

http://www.howtogeek.com/122954/how-to- ... identally/

It's set to disable for each of the three power plans, just to be safe. :wink:

---

The issue I am having here is that this setting does not appear to work. It's not just my application, people have reported that previous versions of spotify and teamviewer set wake timers that would wake the system regardless of the actual sleep wake timer setting:

http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id- ... sleep.html

Same for me - two machines suddenly waking from sleep and I can see from powercfg -waketimers that it is teamviewer that has created an entry that is causing it.

Unfortunately the disable waketimers option in the control panel for Windows 10 seems to make no difference - they were already disabled and yet the PC still wakes from sleep.


https://community.spotify.com/t5/Deskto ... -p/1205648

Spotify seems to be setting up wake timers on my system that prevent Windows from reliably staying in sleep/hibernate mode. Even when wake timers are turned off in system settings.


The solution in those cases involved the respective companies releasing updates that just didn't use waketimers. But as I said in the OP, it could be months->never until that happens in my case.

---

So, maybe I ought to be asking how I might report or file a bug with Windows 10? The setting, as far as I can tell, just plainly does not work and yet it absolutely should. If it isn't actually possible to disable wake-timers, even for non-system related software like spotify (I mean, seriously!), why provide a meaningless option?
 
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:15 am

Glorious wrote:
*Another verbose response that can be easily be sum-up with "RTFP, DUMBA$$!" colored with a massive condescending tone while pretending to be witty and clever*


In your case, it is likely an issue with waketimers in Windows 10 being "broken" and/or third-party software in question have a nasty bug with this under Windows 10 that managed to passed through QC. Is software in question that is giving you the waketimer issues geared towards SMB/Enterprise markets? If that is the case then is not surprising that kind of bug got by QC since Windows 10 still has a small presence in the enterprise/SMB world. There isn't much of an incentive to do thorough QC under that environment yet.

In any case, I would recommend focusing your energies towards Microsoft and software vendors in question for a possible solution. I doubt you will find viable answers in the "Computer enthusiast" portals if simple web searching does not yield any solutions.
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:37 am

Krogoth wrote:
In any case, I would recommend focusing your energies towards Microsoft and software vendors in question for a possible solution.

Glorious wrote:
The solution in those cases involved the respective companies releasing updates that just didn't use waketimers. But as I said in the OP, it could be months->never until that happens in my case.

@Krogoth - Are you even reading his posts before hitting Reply?
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:41 am

Hey, wow, learnt something. I was having this issue with my laptop, close it for the night and waking up to find it on with the lid closed. It would have been interesting to see what the powercfg said was waking it up, but I upgraded the install with my works Win10 EDU. Other things are weird, but at least it sleeps like the grave, man.
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:41 am

Glorious, I recently troubleshooted an issue like that. It was before the Anniversary Update, though.

What fixed it for me was scouring through every connected USB device and making sure that other than the keyboard and mouse, none could wake the PC. Heck, disable them for testing if need be. I eventually narrowed the problem down to a gamepad. Amusingly enough, the same gamepad never produced this problem a problem with Win7.
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:43 am

just brew it! wrote:
Krogoth wrote:
In any case, I would recommend focusing your energies towards Microsoft and software vendors in question for a possible solution.

Glorious wrote:
The solution in those cases involved the respective companies releasing updates that just didn't use waketimers. But as I said in the OP, it could be months->never until that happens in my case.

@Krogoth - Are you even reading his posts before hitting Reply?


Yes and unfortunately that his best option at this point. If you generate enough noise over the issue and it becomes large enough. Whatever party is responsible for the problem might do something about it or not.

Welcome to the joys of dealing with stupid bugs/issues in closed-source software.
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:49 am

morphine:Glorious, I recently troubleshooted an issue like that. It was before the Anniversary Update, though.

What fixed it for me was scouring through every connected USB device and making sure that other than the keyboard and mouse, none could wake the PC. Heck, disable them for testing if need be. I eventually narrowed the problem down to a gamepad. 

He said it only happens with the application installed though.

I've not had to deal with this issue, but is the application creating the wake timers through a scheduled task?  I came across this while researching, they said that running: 
Get-ScheduledTask | where {$_.settings.waketorun}


Was a way to tell.  This probably doesn't apply but thought I'd share my findings.
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Glorious
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:51 am

Krogoth wrote:
In any case, I would recommend focusing your energies towards Microsoft and software vendors in question for a possible solution. I doubt you will find viable answers in the "Computer enthusiast" portals if simple web searching does not yield any solutions.


Glorious wrote:
So, maybe I ought to be asking how I might report or file a bug with Windows 10?


Glorious wrote:
The vendor shouldn't be this retarded, I agree, but the timeline for them fixing it in this case is months to possibly never.


Glorious wrote:
But as I said in the OP, it could be months->never until that happens in my case.


I would recommend that you stop responding to posts you plainly haven't read.

Why?

Because, for once, you are right! Searching for "windows 10 waketimers" with a pedantic level of exactness still results in a deluge of people who clearly only saw up to "windows 10 wake" like a cut-through switch and immediately routed to "WoL".

I recognize that most "computer enthusiasts" like you are utterly unable to help me, which is not only why I write my posts the way I do, but also why *you* are rarely able to help anyone. I wasn't writing to you, my dear, I writing to someone like Ryu Connor or another enthusiast on the level of 1-in-10 or something like that. A person that not only knows more than what they can easily google, but also knows how to google with discernment, to the point where they realize they ought to curate their inevitably-indexed responses as well as they do their queries.

You see, it's not even that your contribution. here is passively non-helpful, it's that it is actively unhelpful. The schtick you do is exactly why searching for anything with a personally known (AND ELABORATELY EXPLAINED, ALL FOR NAUGHT) specificity but yet an unfortunately superficial similarity is a disaster: The signal-to-noise is too low.

Stop making it worse. Or, maybe, just for me, could you acknowledge that your suggestions have been addressed in the sequence of posts, or even the SAME post, as the one you are responding to?
 
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:53 am

morphine wrote:
Glorious, I recently troubleshooted an issue like that. It was before the Anniversary Update, though.

What fixed it for me was scouring through every connected USB device and making sure that other than the keyboard and mouse, none could wake the PC. Heck, disable them for testing if need be. I eventually narrowed the problem down to a gamepad. Amusingly enough, the same gamepad never produced this problem a problem with Win7.

Been there done that as well, and it was my Logitech Wingman joystick that was the culprit, although I did have the issue under Windows 7 as well. Weirdly though, I think reinstalling the driver and redoing a calibration was the thing that solved it that for some reason, i was sending minor, but constant inputs before it. After that it never was a problem. And it seems the driver for Win 10 actually took away the waketimer for the joystick in its entirety.
 
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:11 am

morphine wrote:
Glorious, I recently troubleshooted an issue like that. It was before the Anniversary Update, though.

What fixed it for me was scouring through every connected USB device and making sure that other than the keyboard and mouse, none could wake the PC. Heck, disable them for testing if need be. I eventually narrowed the problem down to a gamepad. Amusingly enough, the same gamepad never produced this problem a problem with Win7.


Heh, weirdly, after I upgraded to win10 from win7 this system start doing that too. At the time I just ignored it completely out of frustration (I had not that long ago fixed it for windows 7 :lol: ). Then, recently, I tried it again (after the AU) and it seemed to work.

Until this application. :x

Convert wrote:
I've not had to deal with this issue, but is the application creating the wake timers through a scheduled task? I came across this while researching, they said that running:


I tried that in an admin-prived powershell, and the base command failed. I probably should look into *that* further, but at this point this issue has a taken a life of its own for me: regardless of how or why this application is creating numerous waketimers, why are they able to override a setting that only exists to constrain them?

As I said in OP, ok, I'll give MS the weekly wake-up for updates that (from my googling) seems difficult to disable or whatever that is about. But random applications, like spotify even? Either the setting is a nullity or it is broken. In my mind that equals either fix or remove.

I was hoping someone with microsoft chops might have group-policy or registry-fu, like some semi-hidden hierarchy of settings that non-GUI wizardry can successfully harness. That seems to be the case some times in MS land, so I thought it was worth a short.

Conversely, someone might know that this is a known breakage or a silently averted setting "because of situations such as x or y": either of those, despite confirming the futility, would grant me psychological relief.
 
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:40 am

Yeah that's odd, the command worked for me.

I agree that knowing how to forcefully and definitively disable wake timers would be great.  I couldn't find anything that would allow that but according to Microsoft they spell out that developers can wake a computer through a device driver or scheduled task.  If these are the only two ways then the scheduled task route seemed like the answer given you've narrowed it down to the application.
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:40 am

I've been trying to dredge out a similar problem on our family desktop. Most of the hardware in it is 5 years old at this point, worked fine under Win7; upgrade to Win10 a while back and everything is still fine...except for the random wakeups.  And there isn't much installed or connected to the machine that should be capable of doing this; no USB peripherals besides keyboard and mouse, no WLAN card, no recent gaming software of any kind except periodic Steam updates.  I already disabled Wake On LAN and that didn't do it.

The strange thing is that it tends not to go back to sleep, either. Once it wakes up, it stays on indefinitely, even though the sleep timer is set for an hour.
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:50 am

Can you name the app? I take it that it is not Spotify or TeamViewer as you mentioned in other reports?

Generating noise against the app may be the only way to get attention. But I guess blaming Microsoft sometimes may work too, especially if you can generate sensationalist headlines from bloggers with some following.
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:51 am

Only thing I could find was developers that had run into the same issue, that is, disable wake timers didn't work, lastly a guy that had set the same question to Microsoft and their support had admitted  that it doesn't work, and following speculation was it was per design since without it, its probable that the forced updates wouldn't work either. And I gather the Task Scheduler uses wake timers as well, so disabling them fully would probably have you unable to run any automated task at all.

As for hidden settings, might be available through the registry/powershell if you can find the right guid, etc. Unfortunately, I don't know enough powershell to do anything useful, but there seems to be a slew of scripts that manipulate the waketimers, but most seems to be tied to the actual powerplan settings. There's also quite a few WMI Scripts available for monitoring any power-events.

As for a fix, unless you can disable the specific timer directly somehow, which should be possible, it has to be registered somewhere, the vendor is probably the only viable way forward, albeit annoying and long. Although disabling it, might do something wonky with the software as well, no ?
 
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:03 am

Glorious wrote:
Does anyone have any idea why the setting in power profiles (I set it to disable in all of them) doesn't actually disable the ability of waketimers to wake a windows 10 computer from sleep?

I don't mean the microsoft update one, I can live with that. I mean vendor applications that set an infinity of waketimers for unknown reasons and thus the computer can't sleep for more than a minute at a time.

Since you mentioned the Microsoft wake timers, I have to ask: What is the exact setting that your power profile uses for wake timers?

On Windows 10, the choices are enabled, disabled, or important only. If you're allowing the Microsoft Update timer, I assume you are set to "important only". If the application is incorrectly setting an important wake timer, this could be the cause.

On the other hand, you may be right in assuming that it is a bug. In that case, I would suggest working round it with a script. The script would read from the task scheduler, optionally whitelist anything you will tolerate (such as Windows updates), and then delete the timers. This script could run on a schedule, on idle, or on workstation lock depending on what works best for your situation.

You could also write the script to disable wakeup for those tasks. I haven't done much power management via PowerShell, but it looks like the .Settings.WakeToRun property controls whether or not that task can wake the machine. You may be able to disable wakeups while leaving the task intact---just in case you actually care about it running.

I would try deleting the tasks first to make sure it addresses the problem, then try adjusting their wakeup capability. I am not 100% sure on that property since I haven't worked with it before, but you should be able to get the best of both worlds if it works the way it sounds.
 
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:05 am

Interestingly I had similar issues on my home boxen, and gave up and left the machine to run 24/7. Even more annoying is the monitor wont sleep, and I have to manually power it off. This monitor problem one is due to older than dirt weather software that inexplicably will wiggle the mouse cursor every so often to keep the machine awake. It must have been an old Windows 95 trick to prevent the machine from shutting down, and it has never been removed for recent OSes. Really naughty IMO.
 
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:16 am

liquidsquid wrote:
Interestingly I had similar issues on my home boxen, and gave up and left the machine to run 24/7. Even more annoying is the monitor wont sleep, and I have to manually power it off. This monitor problem one is due to older than dirt weather software that inexplicably will wiggle the mouse cursor every so often to keep the machine awake. It must have been an old Windows 95 trick to prevent the machine from shutting down, and it has never been removed for recent OSes. Really naughty IMO.

Some recent update caused the display sleep functionality on my home Linux desktop to intermittently not work too. I got pissed off and wrote my own background service (as a bash script) to manage display sleep/wake... :roll:
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:33 pm

This probably explains why I can't get my desktop to stay in sleep mode.  Countless times I've put it in sleep mode, only to come back and find it back on.  It's infurating.  I never want my computer to wake itself up when I'm not there.  Why else would I be putting it in sleep mode in the first place?  Now, if only I could figure out why it turns itself on from complete shutdown...
 
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:58 pm

And Microsoft wonders why its OS is not getting adopted in the embedded space... let alone phones. Critical low-level functions like power modes should be the first thing to work, not search engines, should be tight and functional.
 
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:00 pm

Is this an application you can force into compatibility modes? If so, forcing it may also mitigate the bug that's allowed it to set those timers in the first place.

Do you get any output from 'powercfg -waketimers' when the application is running?
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:51 pm

liquidsquid wrote:
And Microsoft wonders why its OS is not getting adopted in the embedded space... let alone phones. Critical low-level functions like power modes should be the first thing to work, not search engines, should be tight and functional.

The basics work fine, assuming your hardware and drivers are decent.  I can't contribute much to the thread so I'll leave it at that.
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:06 pm

liquidsquid wrote:
And Microsoft wonders why its OS is not getting adopted in the embedded space... let alone phones. Critical low-level functions like power modes should be the first thing to work, not search engines, should be tight and functional.


One of these things is not like the other.
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:35 pm

I think the most likely culprits are a USB device, an asinine piece of software, or a poorly written driver; in that order.  The first one should be fairly easy to eliminate (just unplug everything sans the keyboard and put it to sleep).
 
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Re: Windows 10 waketimers.

Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:44 pm

The Egg wrote:
I think the most likely culprits are a USB device, an asinine piece of software, or a poorly written driver; in that order.  The first one should be fairly easy to eliminate (just unplug everything sans the keyboard and put it to sleep).

Come on, TR readers, reading isn't that hard.
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