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GeekyGirl · Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:46 am

It has been a long time since I have been here so I hope this Geeky Girl still fits in here!

I have a brand new computer running Windows 10. I have a small SSD for the OS and a regular hard drive for data. Since the SSD is so small, I want to change the default location for the Program Files, Program Files (x86) and the Apps. I found where to change the Apps location but I keep coming across that Microsoft does not recommend the location of the Program Files to be moved in Windows 10. So what is the recommended way for handling the installation of programs? My SSD is not large enough to handle all my programs.

Aranarth · Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:21 am

I have multiple hard drives and I just created a "program files" and program files (x86)" folder on the drive and then if I don't want to install to the primary drive just change the drive letter.

There are good reasons to not change the default but you can have multiple install folders.

sophisticles · Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:09 am

Aranarth wrote:
There are good reasons to not change the default but you can have multiple install folders.

Name just one.
To OP: Are you trying to move all your installed programs are just install any new ones to a different hard drive going forward?
If you want to migrate your current installs it may or may not be difficult, depending on whether there is DRM associated with the program, for instance an install of Open Office would be as easy as copying the install folder to the new drive, though the links in the start menu would no longer be valid while a program MS Office would not be so easy, if even possible, because of that silly product activation garbage.
You could just clone the Windows install to a larger drive and call it a day.
Or my preferred method, don't use Windows at all, especially not Win 10.

Glorious · Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:31 am

GeekyGirl wrote:
I found where to change the Apps location but I keep coming across that Microsoft does not recommend the location of the Program Files to be moved in Windows 10.

There are applications out there that hard-coded things. Sometimes even from Microsoft. Sometimes not even that old.

Thus it's "unsupported" for you to fiddle with it.

Unfortunate, but they're trying to protect you for inadvertently breaking something.

GeekyGirl wrote:
So what is the recommended way for handling the installation of programs?

Most installers offer you the choice of where to install a program. Yes, you'll have to manually selected another location, but if they offer the option you can be (mostly) assured that they validated that the installed program will actually work with any arbitrary path.

This generally works rather well, the problem you usually run into with very small System-Disk systems is that certain programs cache updates and metadata where you might not expect and without any clear configuration options to change or manage it.

sophisticles wrote:
Name just one.

Stuff can break. In weird ways. Even when you specified the path in the installer and didn't do anything else.

Fallout 3's DLC/Games for Windows Live! did not handle my original game installation on a different volume very well. Everything seemed fine, even in the game (you got the quest notifiers etc...) but the additional content was never actually present.

You didn't originally get a choice in the GFWL client where the DLC went. It was on C:, the game itself was on G:

I can't remember which way, but I had to use an utility to junction/soft-link directories to make it work. And I had to figure this out myself.

This is because of a Microsoft Product. Less than 10 years ago!

(People were fired, things were patched, but still this happened!)

sophisticles wrote:
Or my preferred method, don't use Windows at all, especially not Win 10.

The solution of "just have a different problem" should only be deployed when the person asking is doing something very complicated/difficult in a misguided attempt to accomplish an unusual goal.

This is not that.

Aether · Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:07 pm

I have a recollection of trying something like this back in the Windows 2000/XP days and having problems with it. As Glorious commented, you'll run into lazy programming in which directories were hard coded into programs instead of the programmer using path variables. Your best bet is to get a bigger SSD (if this is economically feasible for you right now). A 275 GB Crucial MX300 is presently ~ $85. I also saw when I Googled this that doing so can break Windows updating:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/933700

Acidicheartburn · Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:48 pm

You can probably try to do this by making a symbolic link between two folders.

What it basically does is create a special kind of shortcut in place of the folder that redirects all programs looking for that folder location to the new target destination instead. So for example, what you would do is copy all of the files in your Program Files and Program Files (x86) folders to new, identically named folders on your other hard drive. Then you would have to delete the original two folders from your C drive and then use one of the processes from the above link to create a symbolic link for both Program Files folders you're "moving". However, I'm not sure Windows will let you even delete these original folders, as you aren't even allowed to rename them and I haven't/won't try deleting my own to see if it can be done. Furthermore, I'm not certain things that use the registry to point to programs installed in these folders are able to use the symbolic links properly. They may not see them and then you might end up with some real big problems.

My recommendation is that you just create new Program Files and Program Files (x86) folders on your other hard drive and then continue to install your new programs there instead. You can also uninstall and reinstall programs from the SSD onto the HDD. This is by far the easiest and safest route.

Vhalidictes · Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:48 pm

Some programs can be moved and some can't.

The safe-but-horrible solution is to just test each program separately. The geeky solution is to either create a hard link to another drive, or simply use Disk Administrator and mount a drive as if it were a folder.

Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:18 pm

There is most likely an option to move Program Files and Program Files (x86) inside of the answer file.

You would need to download and install the Windows ADK. Once installed you would leverage the Windows SIM (System Image Manager) to create your unattended answer file. With an answer file in hand, you would then install the OS from scratch, pointing setup.exe to your custom answer file.

You'll have to dig deep through the myriad of options to see if an option to move Program Files exists within there. If I recall correctly there is definitely a way to move Users to a different drive in the answer file.

Here's the catch though. Sooner or later this will break something badly. Some installer will explode spectacularly or even worse some official Microsoft patch or new point release (like the upcoming Creator's Update) will refuse to install.

This happened to some people when Windows 8.1 rolled out a few years back. Those who moved Users to a different location could not upgrade to 8.1. 100% broken update mechanism and Microsoft refused to fix it, because from their perspective you used the answer file to carry out an unsupported configuration.

Someone mentioned create your own specific folder and just making a point of aiming applications in that direction. I think that's a safer path. It also gives you a fallback if you run across a poorly written application.

GeekyGirl · Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:12 pm

Thanks for the help! I am working with a brand new computer with nothing installed but the OS so it wasn't about moving already installed programs.

I did move the Users using an answer file and have moved those before without issues. Before 64 bit systems, I always moved the program files without an issue but I did see where had problems with updating Windows then. So I will take your helpful advice and set up symbolic links.

Usacomp2k3 · Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:55 pm

Is getting a big enough primary drive a budgetary concern? That's the only legitimate reason i can think of move it off the primary drive.

GeekyGirl · Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:10 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
Is getting a big enough primary drive a budgetary concern? That's the only legitimate reason i can think of move it off the primary drive.

yes it is...I just bought a new computer which is an unexpected expense plus I need to save every penny to pay for the out of pocket expenses for my brain surgery.

I think I missed seeing a post in regards to moving existing program installed or just moving the location where new ones will ne installed...this is a brand new computer with nothing installed but Windows so I am not dealing with any installed program yet.

I read the article about creating to symbolic or hard links and that looks like a perfect solution but I need a little help...I am still relearning how to read and comprehend what I am reading after the stroke. So I want to make links for the Program Files and Program Files (x86) to the same named folders on my secondary drive which is my data drive, D.

I think I want a Hard Link..is that correct?

so in the command prompt (admin), I type mklink /H C:/Program File D:/Program Files?

DragonDaddyBear · Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:52 pm

When I ran into a similar problem I used the link solution. You want a symbolic link. The command is mklink /J. The j is a junction and and link folders. I copied my steam folder to another ssd, renamed the old folder, then used the link to point to the other drive.

Also, use CMD. I had issues using PowerShell (habbit these days).

Oh, and use single quotes on the paths (mklink /J 'c:\program files' 'd:\program files')

GeekyGirl · Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:11 pm

Something is still confusing me. I entered the following at the command prompt:
mklink j/ "D:\Program Files" "c:\Program Files"
It set up the link...so now when I look at my D drive, it looks like the Program Files folder is a shortcut to c:/Program Files. But as a shortcut doesn't it mean that the files are still on the c drive? I'm a bit confused!

DrDominodog51 · Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:37 pm

GeekyGirl wrote:
Something is still confusing me. I entered the following at the command prompt:
mklink j/ "D:\Program Files" "c:\Program Files"
It set up the link...so now when I look at my D drive, it looks like the Program Files folder is a shortcut to c:/Program Files. But as a shortcut doesn't it mean that the files are still on the c drive? I'm a bit confused!

I think you reversed the order you need to type the file location. Try deleting that link and running

mklink j/ 'C:\Program Files' 'D:\Program Files'

GeekyGirl · Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:14 pm

DrDominodog51 wrote:
GeekyGirl wrote:
Something is still confusing me. I entered the following at the command prompt:
mklink j/ "D:\Program Files" "c:\Program Files"
It set up the link...so now when I look at my D drive, it looks like the Program Files folder is a shortcut to c:/Program Files. But as a shortcut doesn't it mean that the files are still on the c drive? I'm a bit confused!

I think you reversed the order you need to type the file location. Try deleting that link and running
Code: Select all
mklink j/ 'C:\Program Files' 'D:\Program Files'

you actually can't do it that way because you get an error that the folder already exists.

Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:33 pm

Losergamer04 wrote:
I copied my steam folder to another ssd, renamed the old folder, then used the link to point to the other drive.

The steam application itself allows you to have multiple file locations in your library.
Under your Steam settings, go to "Downloads" and click on the "Steam Library Folders" button under Content Libraries, then click on the "Add Library Folder" button.

leor · Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:41 pm

GeekyGirl wrote:
plus I need to save every penny to pay for the out of pocket expenses for my brain surgery.

er, brain surgery? not to pry, but... brain surgery?

Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:43 pm

leor wrote:
er, brain surgery? not to pry, but... brain surgery?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=119064

leor · Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:08 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
leor wrote:
er, brain surgery? not to pry, but... brain surgery?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=119064

ah, well... wow

to have to deal with that AND windows 10... one or the other is tough enough but both together!

I hope these saavier than me guys can help, I'm still trying to disable cortana!

DragonDaddyBear · Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:24 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
Losergamer04 wrote:
I copied my steam folder to another ssd, renamed the old folder, then used the link to point to the other drive.

The steam application itself allows you to have multiple file locations in your library.
Under your Steam settings, go to "Downloads" and click on the "Steam Library Folders" button under Content Libraries, then click on the "Add Library Folder" button.

I know. It wasn't just my steam folder. It was a bunch of games I typically played. It's easier for my little mind to keep things consistent.

bfg-9000 · Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:36 pm

Just wanted to remind of one less complicated alternative if it's Intel. Back when SSDs were ridiculously expensive, it was popular to use tiny SSDs for HDD cacheing, and Intel Smart Response Technology using the RST RAID driver can effectively turn the two drives into hybrid array which effectively functions like a hybrid hard disk.

The most frequently used programs and files will be cached at SSD speed, and if you eventually do upgrade to a large enough SSD the system will be more easily cloned to it without having to remember to undo all these little changes first.

GeekyGirl · Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:07 am

bfg-9000 wrote:
Just wanted to remind of one less complicated alternative if it's Intel. Back when SSDs were ridiculously expensive, it was popular to use tiny SSDs for HDD cacheing, and Intel Smart Response Technology using the RST RAID driver can effectively turn the two drives into hybrid array which effectively functions like a hybrid hard disk.

The most frequently used programs and files will be cached at SSD speed, and if you eventually do upgrade to a large enough SSD the system will be more easily cloned to it without having to remember to undo all these little changes first.

so how do I go about setting this up?

Acidicheartburn · Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:08 am

GeekyGirl wrote:
DrDominodog51 wrote:
GeekyGirl wrote:
Something is still confusing me. I entered the following at the command prompt:
mklink j/ "D:\Program Files" "c:\Program Files"
It set up the link...so now when I look at my D drive, it looks like the Program Files folder is a shortcut to c:/Program Files. But as a shortcut doesn't it mean that the files are still on the c drive? I'm a bit confused!

I think you reversed the order you need to type the file location. Try deleting that link and running
Code: Select all
mklink j/ 'C:\Program Files' 'D:\Program Files'
you actually can't do it that way because you get an error that the folder already exists.

Firstly, before you run the command you need to make sure you've already created the Program Files folder on the D:\ drive and have copied all the contents from the Program Files folder on the C:\ drive to there. I'm not entirely sure about this, but you may want to enable viewing of protected operating system files before you copy everything just to make sure you get everything that's important. Hopefully someone else can chime in on that. It may just cause more problems than it prevents though.

Now, finally, before you run the command you will have to delete the original Program Files folder on your C:\ drive. Until you do this, you will not be able to create the symbolic link on the hard drive. This is because of how a symbolic link works. It essentially mimics a folder, which is probably why it's telling you that the folder already exists.

bfg-9000 · Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:35 am

GeekyGirl wrote:
so how do I go about setting this up?

Clone the SSD to HDD
Configure BIOS from AHCI to RAID (there are some tricks to changing this with an existing Windows installation; the easiest one is to simply delete the storage controller immediately before rebooting to change the setting) and to boot from HDD
Install RST driver and SRT is the "Accelerate" button

GeekyGirl · Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:03 pm

Acidicheartburn wrote:
GeekyGirl wrote:
DrDominodog51 wrote:
I think you reversed the order you need to type the file location. Try deleting that link and running
Code: Select all
mklink j/ 'C:\Program Files' 'D:\Program Files'
you actually can't do it that way because you get an error that the folder already exists.
Firstly, before you run the command you need to make sure you've already created the Program Files folder on the D:\ drive and have copied all the contents from the Program Files folder on the C:\ drive to there. I'm not entirely sure about this, but you may want to enable viewing of protected operating system files before you copy everything just to make sure you get everything that's important. Hopefully someone else can chime in on that. It may just cause more problems than it prevents though.

Now, finally, before you run the command you will have to delete the original Program Files folder on your C:\ drive. Until you do this, you will not be able to create the symbolic link on the hard drive. This is because of how a symbolic link works. It essentially mimics a folder, which is probably why it's telling you that the folder already exists.

So my thinking was correct that I want the "dummy" filer on dive c instead of d but that causes another issue...the Program Files folder cannot be deleted because there are files being used. So I am completely frustrated now!

The funny thing is that I always moved my program files to a data drive through the registry and never had issues. But I see all these warning on forums not to move those files in Windows 10.
so I guess I need another plan.

Can solid state drive be used in a RAID Array? I still have the ssd from my old computer so if I did a RAID 0, wouldn't it make the 2 ssd's appear as a single drive? Would 464 GB be sufficient to hold my programs? My two largest programs are Office 2016 Pro and Adobe Master Suite 6.

Acidicheartburn · Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:51 pm

It's obvious, in hindsight, that you wouldn't be able to delete the Programs folders from your C drive while running Windows. I should have predicted that, but hey, hindsight is 20/20.

You aren't going to be able to delete those folders while running that computer unless you boot from a secondary OS installed elsewhere (ex/ external drive or flash drive) and run the commands like that. Suddenly we're talking a whole new layer of complexity. My recommendation is that you just manually install everything that gives you the option onto your other drive. It's the easiest and safest route, and should resolve 95% of your storage woes regarding programs taking up too much space on the OS drive.

Glorious · Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:19 pm

GeekyGirl wrote:
so I guess I need another plan.

I might have missed it, but what was wrong with this one?

Glorious wrote:
Most installers offer you the choice of where to install a program.

Several other people have suggested this as well, and I'm not sure why it seemingly hasn't been considered.

blahsaysblah · Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:13 pm

Using symlinks isnt pain free. Tried same thing a few years back. The program installers will still only look at how empty C drive is. It doesnt matter that you are installing to a directory that points to another drive with 10TB free, what the installer sees is installing to C:\.... and it checks how much free space C: has.

Window 10 install is around 15GB of space with Hibernate and system page file disabled. Depending on how much RAM you have, disabling Hibernate and System page file can save you a lot of disk space.

Best choice is to just have a C: and D: drive and use the native installers functionality to install to different drives as needed.

Second best is to use your chipsets RAID functionality to stripe the drives. Look inside your BIOS/UEFI menu, sometimes you need to press a different button at boot to go into separate RAID controller menu.

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