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Vinceant
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Going from Windows 10 Insider to RTM

Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:37 am

Is this even possible? Been using the insider builds since June, 2015 or so... and I've never been able to move to RTM. Only really ever started using them because it was supposed to be possible, but I have yet to see a method work.

Hit this again this week when the latest fast ring build has a really bad bug. If you plug a controller in (Either DS4 or Xbox) the DWM completely crashes and the GPU driver fails to restart until the computer is restarted. Making controllers unusable in this build. This might be the worst bug I've seen in an insider build, so they usually are not bad.

Anyway, figured now is a good time to try and go back to RTM but it still doesn't work. Running the latest 10 install ISO just says I can't keep anything and it has to do a clean install, but doesn't really give me specifics as to why. Am I just screwed? 

Not that I really want to be on RTM, as that's possibly worse than insider, as bugs don't get fixed very fast. Edge is still broken in all builds I've seen though. So that's fun I guess. -_-
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LostCat
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Re: Going from Windows 10 Insider to RTM

Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:07 am

Yes and no.  (The release build is FAR more usable btw.  Bugs get fixed decently, but you also don't have to deal with a constant stream of new ones.)

If the preview is the same version as release, you can just switch off it the same way you switched it on.  So if you can wait a few months it'll be easy.

What I usually end up doing is a fresh install and snagging what I need out of my files and appdata dirs from Windows.old...backups/transferring necessary data beforehand is probably advisable, but not usually necessary.
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Vinceant
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Re: Going from Windows 10 Insider to RTM

Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:37 pm

LostCat wrote:
Yes and no.  (The release build is FAR more usable btw.  Bugs get fixed decently, but you also don't have to deal with a constant stream of new ones.)

If the preview is the same version as release, you can just switch off it the same way you switched it on.  So if you can wait a few months it'll be easy.

What I usually end up doing is a fresh install and snagging what I need out of my files and appdata dirs from Windows.old...backups/transferring necessary data beforehand is probably advisable, but not usually necessary.

They don't use the same numbering scheme though. Which insider preview build corresponds to which public build?
Would there be a way into telling the OS you're on that it's a different build number? I know there are some registry keys, but those don't seem to effect much, but the other things in that folder might; does anybody want to dump that key from release into a file? Just take out the licensed to section of course. I think the setup.exe for the windows 10 ISOs just doesn't recognize the insider build numbers so they just throw up their hands and say "I dunno wtf man, so no". Or they just see the rs_prerelease stuff and autoreject it.
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Duct Tape Dude
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Re: Going from Windows 10 Insider to RTM

Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:39 pm

Can't you just unsubscribe from being an insider? There's a setting in there somewhere and you reboot once or twice and it rolls back all insider releases. I've definitely done it at least once.

EDIT: I wonder if this option becomes unavailable after some time. But I definitely was an insider on the fast ring before, and decided to go back to stock Win10 without reinstalling anything. If it indeed requires a reinstallation, why not just switch to the stable ring?
Last edited by Duct Tape Dude on Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MOSFET
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Re: Going from Windows 10 Insider to RTM

Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:42 pm

? Settings -> Home -> Update & Security -> Windows Insider ?
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Vinceant
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Re: Going from Windows 10 Insider to RTM

Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:50 pm

Yeah, that option doesn't work for me. It also didn't work for a friend of mine... but then it did on another machine. We never could figure out why. My guess is the same as yours, after a period of time this just doesn't work anymore.

I also can't go back to 15002 or 14983 or whatever using an ISO even, so the setup in the isos definitely doesn't like the insider builds for some reason.

Also, something of not, I have never been able to switch to RTM on this machine. I was an insider starting 1 month prior to release. It never let me upgrade to release so I've always been stuck (well, I could do a clean install, but that's a huge pain and the insider builds aren't usually very bad, so yeah).

Funny story, posted this on the windows insider forums and MULTIPLE people were like "why don't you have a system image from before you were an insider?!" after I told them I'd been on insider builds since June 2015. How the heck would a system image from 2 years ago help? lmao
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DancinJack
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Re: Going from Windows 10 Insider to RTM

Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:52 pm

Vinceant wrote:
Yeah, that option doesn't work for me. It also didn't work for a friend of mine... but then it did on another machine. We never could figure out why. My guess is the same as yours, after a period of time this just doesn't work anymore.


Didn't work for me either last year. I had to reinstall.
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Vhalidictes
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Re: Going from Windows 10 Insider to RTM

Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:56 pm

I ran into this myself. If you started out with a pre-Release build and went on from there (that is, if you *never* had installed Windows 10 Gold Master on a given PC), the option to "turn off Insider mode" won't work.

And it shouldn't. Turns out that the licensing is different for a Insider Preview PC, you technically don't have a Retail Key for that PC if you've never installed Windows 10 Release.

Upside: Hey, Free Copy of Windows!
Downside: You're Locked into Insider Mode, (Really) Fast Ring.

Of course, MS couldn't be bothered to communicate any of the above, I had to find out via a support ticket.
 
DancinJack
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Re: Going from Windows 10 Insider to RTM

Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:02 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
And it shouldn't. Turns out that the licensing is different for a Insider Preview PC, you technically don't have a Retail Key for that PC if you've never installed Windows 10 Release.


I don't really agree with that. MS could have easily put in a check on retail activation and you could put in your legit key. It shouldn't take a complete reinstall to go from Insider to retail.
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Vinceant
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Re: Going from Windows 10 Insider to RTM

Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:12 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
I ran into this myself. If you started out with a pre-Release build and went on from there (that is, if you *never* had installed Windows 10 Gold Master on a given PC), the option to "turn off Insider mode" won't work.

And it shouldn't. Turns out that the licensing is different for a Insider Preview PC, you technically don't have a Retail Key for that PC if you've never installed Windows 10 Release.

Upside: Hey, Free Copy of Windows!
Downside: You're Locked into Insider Mode, (Really) Fast Ring.

Of course, MS couldn't be bothered to communicate any of the above, I had to find out via a support ticket.

Well, I have, just not with my apps. Awhile back I ran into an obscure bug with a game so I installed RTM on a different hard drive to test it. My key worked fine there... But maybe it's something relating to this that's still the problem.
Also, yes, MS really should communicate with insiders better. Several pieces of literature clearly state that you can just go back... just sometimes you can't.
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Vhalidictes
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Re: Going from Windows 10 Insider to RTM

Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:42 pm

Oh, I'm not saying that you have a invalid key - my point was that the Insider install never had (nor needs) that key. Which, in turn, means that it's in this weird shadow state, allowed to work as if it were a normal validated install, but it doesn't count as a "retail" install.

You probably should bite the bullet and re-install with your key at some point. I've had decent success exporting the .\User and \Program Files ((x86)), and \ProgramData (hidden) folder trees to a removable drive, and then re-installing with the same user name, and once the install is complete, overwriting the default folders with the saved ones (from a different admin user of course). YMMV.
 
Vinceant
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Re: Going from Windows 10 Insider to RTM

Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:49 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
Oh, I'm not saying that you have a invalid key - my point was that the Insider install never had (nor needs) that key. Which, in turn, means that it's in this weird shadow state, allowed to work as if it were a normal validated install, but it doesn't count as a "retail" install.

You probably should bite the bullet and re-install with your key at some point. I've had decent success exporting the .\User and \Program Files ((x86)), and \ProgramData (hidden) folder trees to a removable drive, and then re-installing with the same user name, and once the install is complete, overwriting the default folders with the saved ones (from a different admin user of course). YMMV.

An interesting idea. Wouldn't programs need to be put back in the registry hive to work though? Quickbooks would likely flip its lid over that.
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Vhalidictes
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Re: Going from Windows 10 Insider to RTM

Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:57 pm

Vinceant wrote:
Vhalidictes wrote:
Oh, I'm not saying that you have a invalid key - my point was that the Insider install never had (nor needs) that key. Which, in turn, means that it's in this weird shadow state, allowed to work as if it were a normal validated install, but it doesn't count as a "retail" install.

You probably should bite the bullet and re-install with your key at some point. I've had decent success exporting the .\User and \Program Files ((x86)), and \ProgramData (hidden) folder trees to a removable drive, and then re-installing with the same user name, and once the install is complete, overwriting the default folders with the saved ones (from a different admin user of course). YMMV.

An interesting idea. Wouldn't programs need to be put back in the registry hive to work though? Quickbooks would likely flip its lid over that.

The user registry is already in the \User folder tree. Any programs that don't work due to the System registry, you re-install on top of themselves. It's a painful process to be sure, but I've done it five times now, and succeeded in four of them.

It's really up to you whether it's worth the effort.

Supposedly, Windows 10 can be "upgraded" to itself, but I've not had to try that process yet. My father said that worked for him, the one time he tried it. From what he said Office 2013 (of all things) didn't survive the upgrade and he had to re-install. Sounds like a similar process to me either way.
 
Vinceant
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Re: Going from Windows 10 Insider to RTM

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:08 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
Vinceant wrote:
Vhalidictes wrote:
Oh, I'm not saying that you have a invalid key - my point was that the Insider install never had (nor needs) that key. Which, in turn, means that it's in this weird shadow state, allowed to work as if it were a normal validated install, but it doesn't count as a "retail" install.

You probably should bite the bullet and re-install with your key at some point. I've had decent success exporting the .\User and \Program Files ((x86)), and \ProgramData (hidden) folder trees to a removable drive, and then re-installing with the same user name, and once the install is complete, overwriting the default folders with the saved ones (from a different admin user of course). YMMV.

An interesting idea. Wouldn't programs need to be put back in the registry hive to work though? Quickbooks would likely flip its lid over that.

The user registry is already in the \User folder tree. Any programs that don't work due to the System registry, you re-install on top of themselves. It's a painful process to be sure, but I've done it five times now, and succeeded in four of them.

It's really up to you whether it's worth the effort.

Supposedly, Windows 10 can be "upgraded" to itself, but I've not had to try that process yet. My father said that worked for him, the one time he tried it. From what he said Office 2013 (of all things) didn't survive the upgrade and he had to re-install. Sounds like a similar process to me either way.

I may try this option. Shouldn't one reinstall programs before copying the relevant directories over that though?
And yes, you can do an "in place upgrade". This has been possible since 8.0. It's extremely useful if something is broken about the OS but it still boots. I have encountered a few issues that were not solved by this, but I suspect they were due to some type of minor hardware failure (like bad RAM or something, or a bad storage device). Outside of those niche cases, it's one of the best ways to solve most problems that we used to clean install for. DISM broken? In place upgrade fixes stuff like that a lot of the time.
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Vhalidictes
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Re: Going from Windows 10 Insider to RTM

Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:23 pm

Vinceant wrote:
I may try this option. Shouldn't one reinstall programs before copying the relevant directories over that though?
And yes, you can do an "in place upgrade". This has been possible since 8.0. It's extremely useful if something is broken about the OS but it still boots. I have encountered a few issues that were not solved by this, but I suspect they were due to some type of minor hardware failure (like bad RAM or something, or a bad storage device). Outside of those niche cases, it's one of the best ways to solve most problems that we used to clean install for. DISM broken? In place upgrade fixes stuff like that a lot of the time.

Sure, but you won't know which ones won't work ahead-of-time. You could just install them all on the fresh build and then copy the folders afterwards, certainly. It's possible that that's extra work, though. I guess test first, then install, and re-copy from the removable drive if there are issues?

Thinking about the process more, what I'd do is this:
1) Make the folder backup
2) Install Windows 10 as an upgrade first.
3) Test. If there are any weird problems, then...
4) Install a fresh copy of Windows 10, include a dummy account with the same name as the original install.
5) Re-install all the important software.
6) Copy the original folders over the new ones as a throwaway admin account
7) Log in with the original user name and test.
 
Vinceant
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Re: Going from Windows 10 Insider to RTM

Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:08 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
Vinceant wrote:
I may try this option. Shouldn't one reinstall programs before copying the relevant directories over that though?
And yes, you can do an "in place upgrade". This has been possible since 8.0. It's extremely useful if something is broken about the OS but it still boots. I have encountered a few issues that were not solved by this, but I suspect they were due to some type of minor hardware failure (like bad RAM or something, or a bad storage device). Outside of those niche cases, it's one of the best ways to solve most problems that we used to clean install for. DISM broken? In place upgrade fixes stuff like that a lot of the time.

Sure, but you won't know which ones won't work ahead-of-time. You could just install them all on the fresh build and then copy the folders afterwards, certainly. It's possible that that's extra work, though. I guess test first, then install, and re-copy from the removable drive if there are issues?

Thinking about the process more, what I'd do is this:
1) Make the folder backup
2) Install Windows 10 as an upgrade first.
3) Test. If there are any weird problems, then...
4) Install a fresh copy of Windows 10, include a dummy account with the same name as the original install.
5) Re-install all the important software.
6) Copy the original folders over the new ones as a throwaway admin account
7) Log in with the original user name and test.

I can't do number 2 (hehe). The installer just wants to reformat. It won't allow me to keep anything.
I suspect that it's just not recognizing the build number as a viable upgrade path. I'm investigating ways to trick it, but I don't know if it's possible.
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curtisb
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Re: Going from Windows 10 Insider to RTM

Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:15 pm

Vinceant wrote:
They don't use the same numbering scheme though.

Yes, they do. But, see below for an answer to your next question.

Vinceant wrote:
Which insider preview build corresponds to which public build?

There isn't currently an Insider Preview build that corresponds to an RTM build. There will be in a few months when the Creators Update goes final. Typically those on the Insider Preview get this build a week or so before everyone else. Once it's installed you can turn off the Insider Preview builds.

You can use a retail key on a preview build. In fact, if you don't it'll say Windows isn't activated.
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Vhalidictes
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Re: Going from Windows 10 Insider to RTM

Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:46 pm

curtisb wrote:
Vinceant wrote:
They don't use the same numbering scheme though.

Yes, they do.  But, see below for an answer to your next question.

Vinceant wrote:
Which insider preview build corresponds to which public build?

There isn't currently an Insider Preview build that corresponds to an RTM build.  There will be in a few months when the Creators Update goes final.  Typically those on the Insider Preview get this build a week or so before everyone else.  Once it's installed you can turn off the Insider Preview builds.

You can use a retail key on a preview build.  In fact, if you don't it'll say Windows isn't activated.

I still have my (Beta) Windows 10 Insider build running. It was activated, but doesn't have a license, and never did. 

See this page for (slightly confusing) details. Specifically, all the way at the bottom of the page hidden under the title "Activating the latest Windows 10 Insider Preview". It's pretty weaselly, but it's there.
 
curtisb
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Re: Going from Windows 10 Insider to RTM

Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:02 am

I've definitely had an Insider Preview say that it wasn't activated before, but only once. They probably don't enforce it as much on the preview builds because those will forcibly timeout if you don't keep it updated...as in the system won't even boot. Once it does, there isn't a way around it without a full wipe, either.
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