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Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:56 am

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Topinio
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:12 am

End User wrote:
Amateur hour.

These chickens? https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140806 ... c-testers/
Clearly no-one at the time thought they'd come home to roost...
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arunphilip
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:14 am

^ This. Rarely is there such an obvious example for a poorly-made decision.

You'd think that Satya Nadella, with his enterprise focus, would understand the value of testers, especially in regression testing targeting large coverage. Unpaid Insiders are more likely to focus on newer features, and their specific workflows. Insiders - by nature - are power users, so are not representative of end users.
 
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:38 am

smh -- it's not like other companies don't have to pull updates from time to time, but this one is really bad. Such obvious problems it'd seem insane that they missed them.

edit: oh and BTW, those of us that are actually on 1809 just stay here? pretty awful message to send that you have no confidence in your update, but those that already upgraded? meh, stay there!

what a crock
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:35 am

DancinJack wrote:
smh -- it's not like other companies don't have to pull updates from time to time, but this one is really bad. Such obvious problems it'd seem insane that they missed them.

edit: oh and BTW, those of us that are actually on 1809 just stay here? pretty awful message to send that you have no confidence in your update, but those that already upgraded? meh, stay there!

what a crock

Haven't seen a problem with it on my machines. Assumedly if you already updated, whether you came across the bug or not, there's nothing to be gained from downgrading.

As usual I'm wondering how widespread the issue actually is. But clearly it's enough that MS is looking into it.
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:30 pm

...and these guys think W10 is stable enough for enterprise deployment? Trololololo.
 
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:47 pm

NovusBogus wrote:
...and these guys think W10 is stable enough for enterprise deployment? Trololololo.


LTSB's been pretty good, mostly. I have a few dozen of those in our pathologically heterogeneous environment.
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:14 pm

Oh man, my desktop was upgraded to 1809 last week, and today's patch Tuesday is sending down "2018-10 Cumulative Update for Windows 10 Version 1809 for x64-based Systems (KB4464330)".
Fingers crossed.
 
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:40 pm

So, Microsoft have fixed the issue, and have offered up an explanation: https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperi ... -insiders/

One of the scenarios outlined is this, the others follow the same pattern.
Using KFR the user redirected a known folder to a different drive. For example, suppose you ran out of space on your C drive. You want to save some files separate from your primary folder, so you add another drive to your system for these. You create “D:\documents” and change the location of the files known folder from the original “old” location c:\users\username\documents to D:\documents. In some cases, if the contents of c:\users\username\documents were not moved to D:\documents, then a user could also encounter this issue. When the October 2018 Update was installed the original “old” folder was deleted including the files in that folder (in this example c:\users\username\documents would be deleted; d:\documents, the new location, would be preserved).


  • I cannot fathom how someone thought that deleting the contents of the Documents/Pictures was acceptable, even after folder redirection, and not test this adequately.
  • I don't buy the argument that after folder redirection, several users were still using the old location to store files. And if they didn't move the old files to the new (redirected) location, I'd think they would have noticed the "missing" files left behind in the old location after redirection, not the upgrade, and would have remediated it then (these are users who manually triggered the update, remember, not my dad/mom).
  • I'm also not impressed with their improvement to the Feedback Hub, by adding in fields for criticality/severity. Insiders are not professional testers playing out of the same rulebook, so to expect everyone there to fairly classify criticality/severity as H/M/L is wishful thinking. In Microsoft's own words "We expect this will allow us to better monitor the most impactful issues even when feedback volume is low", so many people reporting a bug are likely to think "Let me flag it High so Microsoft look at it quickly, instead of waiting for upvotes".
  • If anything, Microsoft have to look internally at their triage process, because this issue was reported as a bug by multiple Insiders, but not picked up by Microsoft. Triaging bugs solely based on upvotes is folly.
 
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:53 pm

As someone who has worked in software development for decades, I can understand how something like this got introduced during the development process, especially on a product as organically complex as Windows. What I can't fathom is how this made it out into a the field as an official update, after the issue had been reported during initial testing. That's pretty sloppy.

Any issues which potentially result in user data loss should be considered show-stoppers until they are understood and mitigated.
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:16 am

just brew it! wrote:
As someone who has worked in software development for decades, I can understand how something like this got introduced during the development process, especially on a product as organically complex as Windows. What I can't fathom is how this made it out into a the field as an official update, after the issue had been reported during initial testing. That's pretty sloppy.


Oh, I'm in the field as well, which is what makes it particularly galling.

Given that this change was made explicitly to tidy up known folders that have been redirected, a test case covering non-empty folders should have been a no-brainer. A unit test case, in fact, since this bug doesn't pop up only after system integration.

And yes, their feedback review & triage processes have also failed, as you pointed out. I can only hope that they've realized this mistake behind closed doors and are fixing it, even if they've not written about it.
 
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:28 am

Wow: from the linked page, where any

user used an early [sic] version of the OneDrive client and used the OneDrive settings to turn on the Auto save feature

then they would have carried on for years and then suddenly found all the pre-existing contents of their Documents and/or Pictures folders were deleted when 1809 RTM was installed.
:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

Otherwise, they would only have had their older data deleted if they had left it in a location rather than move it when setting up OneDrive or manually redirecting a known folder to a different drive. Newer data was safe, apparently, in the redirected-to location.

Questions from a sysadmin perspective for you devs, if I may: isn't the decision to recursively and forcibly delete an active one? i.e. seems to me that the standard approach to remove an expected empty directory should be the equivalent of a 'rmdir' rather than a 'rm -rf' one.

Or, am I wrong to feel like only rank amateur(s) would write (and sign off) on code (within a systems software upgrade package) which recursively deletes data from user data directories?
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:48 am

Topinio wrote:
Questions from a sysadmin perspective for you devs, if I may: isn't the decision to recursively and forcibly delete an active one? i.e. seems to me that the standard approach to remove an expected empty directory should be the equivalent of a 'rmdir' rather than a 'rm -rf' one.


Dev #1 (turning to his colleague): "I tried deleting the folder as we're asked to do, but it didn't work. The folder's still there. Any idea why?"
Dev #2: "Try 'rm -rf'"
Dev #1: "Cool, that worked."

Trust me, some of the devs I worked with (or managed) were like this. Fix the immediate problem at hand without any understanding of the consequences. Oh, and the doubling down when questioned:

Q: "Why did you force delete the folder?"
Dev #1: "Oh, the spec said this is a cleanup activity, so deleting it was necessary. We weren't asked to retain any files in the spec.".

I'd have hoped that Microsoft was staffed with better devs, but instances like this make me wonder if my former colleagues have found employment there.
 
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:55 am

In this case, it sounds like something decided to free up disk space because those folders were (supposedly, but actually not) archived to the Cloud. So the recursive delete was intentional.
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:04 pm

arunphilip wrote:
Oh man, my desktop was upgraded to 1809 last week, and today's patch Tuesday is sending down "2018-10 Cumulative Update for Windows 10 Version 1809 for x64-based Systems (KB4464330)".
Fingers crossed.


I updated two systems upon release; no issues, and one of these systems has folders redirected to another drive. The original folder, however, was emptied and removed, and did not appear to exhibit the issue.

NovusBogus wrote:
...and these guys think W10 is stable enough for enterprise deployment? Trololololo.


In an enterprise environment, most of the issues related to Microsoft's update cadence are mitigated behind domains. Generally speaking, Windows 10 is quite stable for that purpose, but specific implementations will depend on the administrative skill of enterprise IT.

bthylafh wrote:
LTSB's been pretty good, mostly. I have a few dozen of those in our pathologically heterogeneous environment.


I've been toying with a copy in a VM, and I'm about ready to deploy it on a personal desktop. The only thing really missing for consumer workstation use is the Store, and the Stores usefulness is pretty narrow.
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:08 pm

Neowin wrote:
Earlier this week, Microsoft pushed out its monthly set of updates to various versions of Windows 10, including version 1809. It seems, however, that this patch carries its own major problems. Users all over the internet are reporting that their devices are getting into a blue screen of death (BSOD) after the update, preventing them from booting.

The error message displayed says "WDF_VIOLATION", which refers to the Windows Driver Framework. The problem seems to mostly affect HP users, and it relates to a driver file found on the company's computers, 'HpqKbFiltr.sys'. Many of those affected reported that deleting this file solved their problems and that the devices work normally.

The problem doesn't seem to affect just the feature update released last week, but users on the April 2018 Update are apparently facing similar issues.

Neowin - Users are reporting BSODs with the with latest patch for Windows 10
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:14 pm

The HP problem got me. It's related to a separate HP keyboard driver update that just happened to come in beside this week's MS cumulative update. I don't even have a keyboard attached to that HP Prodesk G2 machine and it still got it. This is causing boot loop BSODs for huge collections of HP business desktops. Oops.

After a few hours of irritating Windows reinstalls wondering what the hell was wrong with the cumulative update, I blocked the keyboard driver update and all is well now.
Last edited by swaaye on Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:17 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:15 pm

Depending on how true the "affects other brands as well" part is, that may be more HP being stupid than Microsoft.
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:45 pm

I just looked at my hidden updates on my HP desktop and the HP Keyboard drive is gone now. I guess MS pulled it from WU then.
 
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:58 am

Ye gods. If only there was some way to test this software stuff!
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:53 am

Topinio wrote:
If only there was some way to test this software stuff!


We are.
 
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:59 pm

Any update on this? / Is it safe now?

Nvm, guess it is. I still wanna know if there are other issues though.
 
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:14 am

DoomGuy64 wrote:
Any update on this? / Is it safe now?

It was never unsafe, unless you were in the tiny minority that moved your mapped folders for "my documents" or the like to a different folder/drive but left data in the old locations.
 
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:42 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
It was never unsafe, unless you were in the tiny minority that moved your mapped folders for "my documents" or the like to a different folder/drive but left data in the old locations.

That 'tiny minority' includes everyone who set up OneDrive before a particular (unspecified) version / date.
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:05 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
It was never unsafe, unless you were in the tiny minority that moved your mapped folders for "my documents" or the like to a different folder/drive but left data in the old locations.

How foolish of those users to think they could decide where they want their files to be!
 
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:06 pm

My two October update systems have been rock solid so far.

The one desktop that would not take the October update is now running Build 17763.104. It green screens periodically (perhaps due to the Apple A12 SPEC2006 forum thread :P ).
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:01 pm

Yan wrote:
Usacomp2k3 wrote:
It was never unsafe, unless you were in the tiny minority that moved your mapped folders for "my documents" or the like to a different folder/drive but left data in the old locations.

How foolish of those users to think they could decide where they want their files to be!

TBH most users these days don't want to decide that; we're a minority here on this forum. I see this as a case of Microsoft having a reasonable idea, but badly botching the execution.
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:10 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Yan wrote:
Usacomp2k3 wrote:
It was never unsafe, unless you were in the tiny minority that moved your mapped folders for "my documents" or the like to a different folder/drive but left data in the old locations.

How foolish of those users to think they could decide where they want their files to be!

TBH most users these days don't want to decide that; we're a minority here on this forum. I see this as a case of Microsoft having a reasonable idea, but badly botching the execution.


And if users have to, there's a one-way function built-in that avoids this bug. It's actually a bit baffling to me how someone got their stuff back into a place they'd moved it from, that should no longer exist.
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:35 pm

Airmantharp wrote:
And if users have to, there's a one-way function built-in that avoids this bug. It's actually a bit baffling to me how someone got their stuff back into a place they'd moved it from, that should no longer exist.

Everyone who set up OneDrive before a particular (unspecified) version / date was hit, the installation / set-up process for OneDrive apparently left files where they'd been and only new files created after set-up were stored in the cloud.

Which means that Microsoft screwed up earlier, too, as when this older bug was fixed (1) nothing was done to alert existing users that their older files were not where they though they were, and (2) the older files weren't moved (at that point) to where the users thought they'd already been put.
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Re: Microsoft pulls Windows 10 October 2018 Update

Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:38 pm

PSA: The Windows 10 October 2018 update (1809) is available once again: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/softwar ... /windows10

I already got it last month on my primary PC, and today's CU KB4467708 bumped it up to 17763.134.
I'm installing 1809 on my secondary PC (which didn't receive it last month), and will see what the build number is.

Edit: Installed successfully on my secondary PC, build version is 17763.107, after which cumulative update KB4467708 brought it up to .134.

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