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End User
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Windows Core OS = Windows Lite?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:31 pm

I'm kinda confused by a tweet/post today by/on Petri.com:

https://twitter.com/PetriFeed/status/10 ... 9794290688

https://www.petri.com/what-is-windows-c ... -os-killer

The tweet mentions Windows Core OS is" Microsoft's Chromebook OS Killer" yet the article refers to it as Windows Lite. What the heck?

I'm not sure what the point of Windows Lite (or whatever it's called) is. The strength of Windows 10 is that it is Windows x64 running apps from anywhere on powerful hardware. Variants such as Windows 10 S and Windows 10 on ARM strip away the entire essence of what makes Windows relevant.
 
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Re: Windows Core OS = Windows Lite?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:54 pm

You'd think they would learn not to do that kind of thing after the epic fails that were Win7 Starter, Windows RT, etc. But you'd also think that they would make stability be a priority for the pro level Windows 10 tiers, so this is obviously the 'special' set of MS decision makers.
 
sweatshopking
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Re: Windows Core OS = Windows Lite?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:00 am

Windows is too heavy for thin and light devices. They'll keep trying. You'll be happy to hear that they're killing edge.
 
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Re: Windows Core OS = Windows Lite?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:27 am

sweatshopking wrote:
Windows is too heavy for thin and light devices. They'll keep trying. You'll be happy to hear that they're killing edge.

The Edge rumor has come around before. Different S rumors have come around before. Maybe they're true maybe not, but the timeframe could still be 2020 or past that for all we know.
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Re: Windows Core OS = Windows Lite?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:32 am

sweatshopking wrote:
Windows is too heavy for thin and light devices. They'll keep trying. You'll be happy to hear that they're killing edge.

Then what will I use to download Chrome?
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Yan
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Re: Windows Core OS = Windows Lite?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:49 am

End User wrote:
The strength of Windows 10 is that it is Windows x64 running apps from anywhere on powerful hardware.

One would think that after Windows RT, Microsoft would understand that nobody wants a version of Windows that can't run what everybody considers to be Windows applications. Apparently, Microsoft has to learn the lesson again and again.

Here's another article on the subject: Do we need another stripped-down version of Windows? Microsoft apparently thinks so.
 
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Re: Windows Core OS = Windows Lite?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:06 am

Yan wrote:
End User wrote:
The strength of Windows 10 is that it is Windows x64 running apps from anywhere on powerful hardware.

One would think that after Windows RT, Microsoft would understand that nobody wants a version of Windows that can't run what everybody considers to be Windows applications. Apparently, Microsoft has to learn the lesson again and again.

Here's another article on the subject: Do we need another stripped-down version of Windows? Microsoft apparently thinks so.


See also: Windows on mobile devices. How many failed attempts, now?
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Re: Windows Core OS = Windows Lite?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:25 am

sweatshopking wrote:
Windows is too heavy for thin and light devices. They'll keep trying. You'll be happy to hear that they're killing edge.

I disagree. Even low-end modern CPU’s can handle full windows fine. Disk space is stupid-cheap, so no more 32GB eMMC’s anymore.
 
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Re: Windows Core OS = Windows Lite?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:14 pm

Ms must be on arm and mobile or they're dead. They have no choice but to keep working at it.

As for edge using chrome rumors, there is already a version of edge using chrome. The android version has been chrome since it launched.
 
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Re: Windows Core OS = Windows Lite?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:21 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
sweatshopking wrote:
Windows is too heavy for thin and light devices. They'll keep trying. You'll be happy to hear that they're killing edge.

Then what will I use to download Chrome?

ftp via command line?
 
dragontamer5788
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Re: Windows Core OS = Windows Lite?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:29 pm

Microsoft has been trying to transition to a higher-level of programming than the C Win32 API. In fact, Microsoft is clearly doing its best to try and discard the Win32 API.

I can't blame them for it: Win32 was designed in the 1980s and still has provisions for (lol) Segmented registers and far-pointers. But there's a 30+ year history with the Win32 API, and it has been successfully extended each time updates were needed.

Being UWP only means this is closer to the Windows Surface S, or Windows ARM efforts. In theory, its a decent idea IMO, but Microsoft royally Eff-d the first transition by tying everything down to the Windows Store. Developers are distrustful of Microsoft: no one wants to be locked to yet another store-based ecosystem (like Apple or Android). If Microsoft can give assurances that UWP applications can be installed ad-hoc, I think the UWP ecosystem has a future.

Overall, it is clear that Microsoft's chief development has been into UWP. A lot of programmer effort has gone into that interface, and it really does show IMO. The question is if overall policies set by executives will allow the ecosystem to thrive. A secondary question is whether or not developers in general will be willing to trust Microsoft and their policies ever again, after Microsoft clearly demonstrated their ambitions for a store-based ecosystem during the Win8 era.

---------

EDIT: It seems like this "Windows Core OS" isn't so much a "killing off of Win32", but more of a "killing off parts of Win32". It seems like WCOS will allow some degree of Win32 applications.

-----

Let me explain a few things to those who aren't familiar with Win32. Win32 API is a pixel-by-pixel paintbrush of the screen. You tell Windows "Make a pixel at (50, 51) turn black", etc. etc. Basically, the original "Paint" program is the interface the Win32 programmer is presented with (in GDI anyway). As the user moves the mouse or pushes buttons on the keyboard, the program reacts to it... but ultimately it all comes down to calls like that. Where specific pixel locations are going to change.

That's NOT how UWP is designed. UWP is based on a language called "XAML", which is kinda-like HTML. So instead of saying "pixel blah blah blah", XAML says "Checkbox over there" or "Button over here". As such, XAML code can automatically scale from low-resolution to high-resolution, among other tricks. The original Win32 API is completely busted on today's environment: there's too many different kinds of screens, and too many resolution issues to really use Win32 to solve today's problems. While this new XAML-based approach is still rough around the edges and missing some features, it is clearly a superior base to build programs on top of in the modern era. (Win8 was full-screen only. But Win10 UWP apps have a window bar, a min/max button, and other stuff that people care about)

The problem is that Microsoft Executives also have business requirements to make money. So they think that XAML is such a big advantage for developers, that they're willing to lock it behind the Windows Store... or other such political moves to make them more money. And that's where the issue of trust comes in: what are the policies that Microsoft executives will hit developers with? The cool thing about Win32 is that the political questions are solved and set in the 80s or 90s era of politics: programs can do whatever they want, wherever they want, on the user's system. However, XAML-based UWP applications are still an evolving interface, so Microsoft Executives are still playing with their policies. And some policies are clearly not good for the future of computing in general.

After all: there's a locked-down store over there called "Apple" which makes a ton more money than the Windows Store. If Microsoft is going to make a locked-down, closed ecosystem... its too late. Apple already made one, and it works quite well. The Windows Store is a joke, and developers really expect to sell their items on their own webpages (or at least, across different webpages, like Steam, Good ol Games, and other distribution networks).
Last edited by dragontamer5788 on Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: Windows Core OS = Windows Lite?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:36 pm

bthylafh wrote:
See also: Windows on mobile devices. How many failed attempts, now?

Sad part was, it could have been good. Zune, WP7, the Nameless Horror (Win8), WP10...you can only upend and reimagine your approach to mobile devices so many times before the developer community finally dies on the vine. But at least Nadella has decided that if Microsoft can't manage a mobile device division, they can make their apps good on the other popular platforms. They're just about at the point now where they could reskin and preload an Android phone that would look and function exactly like WP10.
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dragontamer5788
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Re: Windows Core OS = Windows Lite?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:34 pm

Hmm, its been a while since I played with UWP (just toy-like hello world stuff). But it seems like "this time will be different".

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/window ... p-apps-web

So UWP apps can be installed with just a few clicks from the web-browser. Perhaps the installation experience, the security benefits, the superior DPI support, the better touch / stylus / mouse compatibility, will finally make the UWP environment worth using over the legacy Win32 stuff. If 3rd party websites can easily install UWP Apps, that basically means MS is giving up on the store (thank goodness)
 
sweatshopking
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Re: Windows Core OS = Windows Lite?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:13 pm

Microsoft has repeatedly stated, for years, that anyone can open a UWP store or distribute UWP apps. it's just that nobody has bothered.
UWP is largely dead, and PWA apps are the future for most things. UWP will live on with games and large legacy applications. Most "apps" like FB, Twitter, etc. will be PWA in the nearish future.
 
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Re: Windows Core OS = Windows Lite?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:32 pm

The thing about migrating away from an entrenched API like Win32 is you need a point where the migration ends, and moving targets don't usually work out so well. Burying the problem is an alphabet soup of one Next Big Thing after another is either going to leave you with a trail of wreckage, or with nobody really paying attention at all. If Microsoft can release new APIs that are backwards compatible while fixing the old-and-busted inner workings, then that's great, but it'll be the backwards compatibility which makes it all work, and not the shiny new features.
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dragontamer5788
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Re: Windows Core OS = Windows Lite?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:32 pm

Redocbew wrote:
The thing about migrating away from an entrenched API like Win32 is you need a point where the migration ends, and moving targets don't usually work out so well. Burying the problem is an alphabet soup of one Next Big Thing after another is either going to leave you with a trail of wreckage, or with nobody really paying attention at all. If Microsoft can release new APIs that are backwards compatible while fixing the old-and-busted inner workings, then that's great, but it'll be the backwards compatibility which makes it all work, and not the shiny new features.


With all the layoffs and restructuring at Microsoft the past 10 years, they probably weren't a stable enough company to even keep things compatible.

But yeah, you bring up a good point. No developer wants to move to UWP if Microsoft will declare it obsolete in just 5 years (like it did with Win7 / Win8 Metro / etc. etc.). They've kept their promise so far with UWP though, it seems to be a foundation that they're truly building on top of finally. But devs have already been burned, multiple times, by WFP / Silverlight / Win8 Metro transitions.

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