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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Mon May 06, 2019 5:01 pm

meerkt wrote:
jihadjoe wrote:
TDPs were usually below 35W as an absolute max.

Checking some Pentium 133MHz, it's 11W TDP and 12W max.

30-35W was end-of-generation Pentium II/IIIs, like Pentium 3 1GHz with 33W max (the nominal is probably less).

No heatsink goo is such a nice bonus.


Even the notionally hot-running first gen Cyrix 6x86's topped out around 25 watts. Heck, cramming a Pentium MMX into a socket 5 motherboard (which was a supported but hot-running mode) wouldn't conjure a 35 watt TDP. That kind of heat was possible for a higher end Pentium Pro to spew, but those also had huge CPU packages and cooling solutions for the time.

The idea of running a quad Pentium Pro 200 at a total TDP of 140 watts is pretty eye-watering this far out.
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Mon May 06, 2019 5:34 pm

I installed Windows NT Workstation 4.0 on a 486 with 20MB RAM and a 500MB HD one time. Kept crashing during the install process but I just rebooted every time and it would get a little bit further until eventually it succeeded.

Also my post count is now 386.
 
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Tue May 07, 2019 10:51 pm

meerkt wrote:
Flying Fox wrote:
Remember internal names and folder still called i386 before we now call x86 vs x64.

I took it to mean the 32-bit architecture that started with the 386, but indeed, perhaps.

And you would be correct, the 386 was the first to feature better 32-bit protected mode where the win32 subsystem can run on.

techguy wrote:
I installed Windows NT Workstation 4.0 on a 486 with 20MB RAM and a 500MB HD one time. Kept crashing during the install process but I just rebooted every time and it would get a little bit further until eventually it succeeded.
I've done NT4 on 486, Windows 2000 on Pentium MMX 166. For the latter, I just waited the minutes for it to boot and tried very hard not to reboot. With enough RAM and just a handful of launched apps, even multitasking was kind of usable. :o
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Tue May 07, 2019 11:13 pm

Flying Fox wrote:
I've done NT4 on 486, Windows 2000 on Pentium MMX 166. For the latter, I just waited the minutes for it to boot and tried very hard not to reboot. With enough RAM and just a handful of launched apps, even multitasking was kind of usable. :o

IIRC the slowest CPUs I ran NT4 on were a Pentium Pro 200 and a K6 200. Ran decently on both. By the time I moved to Win2K I was on a K6-III+, and upgraded shortly thereafter to an Athlon system.
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Tue May 07, 2019 11:24 pm

I’ve always had a morbid curiosity to try to coax the most modern OS possible into running on a dual-processor Pentium Pro 200 setup with maxed out RAM and some sort of fanagled SSD, and then see how it does.
 
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Tue May 07, 2019 11:41 pm

The Egg wrote:
I’ve always had a morbid curiosity to try to coax the most modern OS possible into running on a dual-processor Pentium Pro 200 setup with maxed out RAM and some sort of fanagled SSD, and then see how it does.

Would you limit yourself to commercially distributed OSes, or would you be willing to, say, build a Linux kernel with tweaked config options to tailor it to that platform? I expect you could get a bleeding edge Linux kernel to boot, and have a functional CLI, mass storage, network stack, etc... A modern GUI might be more challenging, but with some sort of SATA-to-PATA SSD adapter the performance penalty of spilling over into swap might be tolerable even if everything doesn't fit into physical RAM (SSD wear notwithstanding).
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Wed May 08, 2019 7:31 am

Years ago I found a Digital-branded dual Pentium 90 workstation on a curb. I gave it to a friend who promptly determined the only OS that would run correctly on the motherboard was probably Windows 2000. And so, with 112 MB of scavenged EDO SIMMs, he tried to make a homebrew Shoutcast server.

It didn't go very well. In hindsight I wish I'd realized that a Pentium MMX will technically work in a socket 5 motherboard at a higher voltage mode; with proper cooling a pair of those would have been fine, even if both chips were limited to 133 MHz. As it stood it was pokey but sort of OK, but didn't manage mp3 playback very well.
Last edited by Concupiscence on Fri May 17, 2019 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Wed May 08, 2019 8:03 am

just brew it! wrote:
The Egg wrote:
I’ve always had a morbid curiosity to try to coax the most modern OS possible into running on a dual-processor Pentium Pro 200 setup with maxed out RAM and some sort of fanagled SSD, and then see how it does.

Would you limit yourself to commercially distributed OSes, or would you be willing to, say, build a Linux kernel with tweaked config options to tailor it to that platform? I expect you could get a bleeding edge Linux kernel to boot, and have a functional CLI, mass storage, network stack, etc... A modern GUI might be more challenging, but with some sort of SATA-to-PATA SSD adapter the performance penalty of spilling over into swap might be tolerable even if everything doesn't fit into physical RAM (SSD wear notwithstanding).


I'd be willing to bet that FreeBSD would run on it. ftp.cdrom.com used to be hosted on a similar system that allowed around 200-250 simultaneous downloads, which was a lot back then.
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Wed May 08, 2019 8:05 am

bthylafh wrote:
ftp.cdrom.com

There's an address I've not thought of in roughly 2 decades.
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Wed May 08, 2019 8:10 am

The Egg wrote:
If you were able to amass 32MB, I'm slightly jealous of that system. Any idea on whether AMD chips played nice with Intel 387 co-processors?


Yeah, this was in the early 2000s that I built this machine, 16 or 32MB of RAM bought from ebay, I can't exactly remember how much. I've only run Cyrix FasMath co-processors on this machine, but at 40MHz I doubt an Intel 387 would be happy. oh and this motherboard does have the larger socket to wake a Weitek 3167, I just don't have one of those.

The Egg wrote:
I built alot of Cyrix/IBM 6x86 systems back in the day (for a family thing we had going on), but for some reason I thought they were all Socket 5/7. In any case, it sounds like they were more "Pentium class" chips, shoehorned to fit on an older socket, ala Pentium Overdrive. I think I'd still rather have the AMD 5x86, as my experience with Cyrix chips was that they were steaming piles of unstable crap. :x


The 5x85 was indeed a very stripped down, scalar version of the 6x86, scaled down to fit a 486 motherboard (called M1sc and yeah, kinda like a Pentium Overdrive in that sense though only 486 instruction set). The Cyrix 6x86(L) were for Socket 5/7.

As for stability, the 5x86 is okay, as long as you don't turn on its Branch prediction. That was buggy so turned off by default.

Biggest problem that caused instability of Cyrix 6x86 CPUs in my experience, isn't heat but instruction set compatibility. They only have a 486 instruction set and come with CPUID turned off (though it's possible to turn it back on again). So any Pentium only software may crash on a 6x86 (even though it's a Pentium Competitor).

just brew it! wrote:
Sounds pretty similar to my last Super 7 rig, except I managed to snag a K6-III+ for a final upgrade.

My super socket 7 system normally runs one of these, very nice CPU!

The Egg wrote:
Yeah....I remember the Cyrix 6x86 chips I mentioned above using a non-standard 83mhz bus. The resulting non-standard PCI bus clockspeed was likely the cause of most of their instability.


Yeah depending on the SKU, or speed Grade, they could have 66, 75 or 83MHz busses, the latter are best avoided even on a super 7 board.

Flying Fox wrote:
I've done NT4 on 486, Windows 2000 on Pentium MMX 166. For the latter, I just waited the minutes for it to boot and tried very hard not to reboot. With enough RAM and just a handful of launched apps, even multitasking was kind of usable.


I've successfully managed to run Windows XP (classic theme) on an AMD K5 PR166 (117MHz) with 80MB RAM. Was surprisingly usable for one program at a time.
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Wed May 08, 2019 8:46 am

Captain Ned wrote:
bthylafh wrote:
ftp.cdrom.com

There's an address I've not thought of in roughly 2 decades.

BTW, wuarchive is dead. I think they ran a web-based archive afterwards, but that site closed a few years ago. Then there was a memorial page, but also that is gone now.
 
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Wed May 08, 2019 8:50 am

Simtel was back up briefly (FreeDOS mentioned it last May) at http://simtel.site but it looks like it's gone now.
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Wed May 08, 2019 9:45 am

man now i have nostalgia of when we bumped the family 486 up from 3.1 to 95 and I felt like we'd finally gotten to the future.

(even more so when they bought a 100mhz pentium so my brother could play Lego Island)
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Wed May 08, 2019 10:04 am

pikaporeon wrote:
(even more so when they bought a 100mhz pentium so my brother could play Lego Island)

That’s the reason we upgraded too! I was stuck playing at my dad’s office for the first 6 months after getting the game.
 
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Wed May 08, 2019 10:32 am

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
pikaporeon wrote:
(even more so when they bought a 100mhz pentium so my brother could play Lego Island)

That’s the reason we upgraded too! I was stuck playing at my dad’s office for the first 6 months after getting the game.

remember when sandbox games were called gta clones? pfft they were lego island clones
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Wed May 08, 2019 11:56 am

just brew it! wrote:
The Egg wrote:
I’ve always had a morbid curiosity to try to coax the most modern OS possible into running on a dual-processor Pentium Pro 200 setup with maxed out RAM and some sort of fanagled SSD, and then see how it does.

Would you limit yourself to commercially distributed OSes, or would you be willing to, say, build a Linux kernel with tweaked config options to tailor it to that platform? I expect you could get a bleeding edge Linux kernel to boot, and have a functional CLI, mass storage, network stack, etc... A modern GUI might be more challenging, but with some sort of SATA-to-PATA SSD adapter the performance penalty of spilling over into swap might be tolerable even if everything doesn't fit into physical RAM (SSD wear notwithstanding).

Unfortunately I only have very limited Linux experience, and that sort of thing would be beyond my abilities. Further examination shows that they even had quad-socket motherboards for Pentium Pro/Socket 8, but I imagine perfectly working examples are hard to come by these days. Actually.....I remember reading that the Pentium Pro in particular was sought-after by gold scavengers, so that likely increases the rarity and price. :x
 
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Wed May 08, 2019 12:27 pm

At some point I scrounged enough parts to build a dual P-Pro 200 and 128MB of RAM when my alma matter was scrapping out a bunch of legacy hardware from the engineering labs. I think StarFalcon has it now.
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Wed May 08, 2019 12:42 pm

ludi wrote:
At some point I scrounged enough parts to build a dual P-Pro 200 and 128MB of RAM when my alma matter was scrapping out a bunch of legacy hardware from the engineering labs. I think StarFalcon has it now.

Starfalcon has my old P-Pro motherboard and CPU as well.
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Wed May 08, 2019 1:11 pm

The Egg wrote:
I’ve always had a morbid curiosity to try to coax the most modern OS possible into running on a dual-processor Pentium Pro 200 setup with maxed out RAM and some sort of fanagled SSD, and then see how it does.

Right after Win7 launched, I was able to get it running on a P2-300 w/ 512MB of RAM. Didn't have to perform any tricks, it just worked. So obviously Win7 doesn't require SSE or perform a CPU check before installation. Internally, P-Pro and P2 are very similar, so unless Win7 needs MMX, it should work on your P-Pro with enough RAM.
 
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Thu May 09, 2019 3:33 pm

Back in 1997, I had a 486SX that I had upgraded to a DX4-100 using the overdrive socket. I think I only had 8MB of RAM, though. The system would not boot, or even power up, with 16MB of RAM installed for some reason.

It came with Windows 3.1, as they all did back in 1993 when I got the system. It was a Tandy 3100, which was a nice system for the day. But, true to Tandy form, it had some proprietary hardware that made for some annoying bugs. I had tried to install Windows 95 on it. It did manage to install, and I could get the system to boot. But, there was some issue with the video drivers. I could not get the display to work with anything other than 4 color graphics. I think it was standard 256 colors with the correct driver set. I didn't know where to find the right Win95 drivers for the card, so I had to reinstall Win 3.1. A year later, I moved to a P-II 300 with 64MB of RAM and a beta version of Win98, which was much, much nicer.
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Thu May 09, 2019 5:22 pm

setaG_lliB wrote:
The Egg wrote:
I’ve always had a morbid curiosity to try to coax the most modern OS possible into running on a dual-processor Pentium Pro 200 setup with maxed out RAM and some sort of fanagled SSD, and then see how it does.

Right after Win7 launched, I was able to get it running on a P2-300 w/ 512MB of RAM. Didn't have to perform any tricks, it just worked. So obviously Win7 doesn't require SSE or perform a CPU check before installation. Internally, P-Pro and P2 are very similar, so unless Win7 needs MMX, it should work on your P-Pro with enough RAM.


The lack of SSE2 appears to have become a requirement for ongoing support as of last year, when some patches pushed out to Windows 7 broke installs on Athlon XP boxes. Still, it's been fun to watch people try to run it on systems of yore.
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Thu May 09, 2019 6:00 pm

Anyone interested in this kind of stuff should head over to the www.vogons.org forums (particularly the Marvin sections). It's amazing how much work has been put into researching and understanding retro computing there. Mostly related to x86 PCs.
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Thu May 09, 2019 9:55 pm

ozzuneoj wrote:
Anyone interested in this kind of stuff should head over to the http://www.vogons.org forums (particularly the Marvin sections). It's amazing how much work has been put into researching and understanding retro computing there. Mostly related to x86 PCs.


That was a trip down memory lane. I read a thread with someone asking for help increasing his free conventional memory and I could immediately see where his config.sys and autoexec.bat needed changing. It's been since at least 2001 that I've needed to do that in anger.
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Fri May 10, 2019 7:01 am

Vogons is also a good place for help with running older Windows 3D games on modern hardware and OSes.
 
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Fri May 10, 2019 8:15 am

bthylafh wrote:
ozzuneoj wrote:
Anyone interested in this kind of stuff should head over to the http://www.vogons.org forums (particularly the Marvin sections). It's amazing how much work has been put into researching and understanding retro computing there. Mostly related to x86 PCs.


That was a trip down memory lane. I read a thread with someone asking for help increasing his free conventional memory and I could immediately see where his config.sys and autoexec.bat needed changing. It's been since at least 2001 that I've needed to do that in anger.

I will certainly be spending some time reading over there. I'm not sure if seeing what others have done will satiate my urge to acquire nonsense old hardware, or make it worse. :lol:
 
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Re: Did you know Win95 could run on 386?

Fri May 10, 2019 1:27 pm

Concupiscence wrote:
Years ago I found a Digital-branded dual Pentium 90 workstation on a curb. I gave it to a friend who promptly determined the only OS that would run correctly on the motherboard was probably Windows 2000. And so, with 112 MB of scavenged EDO SIMMs, he tried to make a homebrew Shoutcast server.

It didn't go very well. In hindsight I wish I'd realized that a Pentium MMX will technically work in a socket 5 motherboard at a higher voltage mode; with proper cooling that would have been fine, even if both chips were limited to 133 MHz. As it stood it was pokey but sort of OK, but didn't manage mp3 playback very well.


I scrounged spare parts for a Windows 2000 media server, and I found a Pentium 133 that I paired with 64MB ram and a SB AWE 32.

It took quite awhile to boot, but since it was intended to run 24/7, that wasn't a problem. 64MB ram was enough fr the OS, Winamp and one other app, and that was it.

Winamp playback pegged the processor at 50%, but I improved performance by overclocking it to 75x2, and that was a lot more responsive for simultaneously browsing the web (in a pinch). It did service for me for two years, until I replaced it with a more modern system, still running the same Windows 2000 license.

Wianmp really wasn't designed for multiple cores of your DEC box, but it would have left one free to do other things.

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