Personal computing discussed

Moderators: renee, Flying Fox, Ryu Connor

 
Captain Ned
Gold subscriber
Global Moderator
Posts: 28012
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:57 am

Really? This is what has sand in your underwear?
What we have today is way too much pluribus and not enough unum.
 
Waco
Gold subscriber
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3263
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: Los Alamos, NM

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:34 am

I honestly see zero problems with what you just posted. It's clear, it conveys context, and it's easy to read. It immediately shows you what can/can't be selected at a glance.

Perhaps it's nothing to do with stubbornness on anyone's part but your own.
Desktop: X570 Gaming X | 3900X | 32 GB | Alphacool Eisblock Radeon VII | Heatkiller R3 | Samsung 4K 40" | 1 TB SX8200 Pro + 2 TB 660p + 2 TB SATA SSD
NAS: 1950X | Designare EX | 32 GB ECC | 7x8 TB RAIDZ2 | 8x2 TB RAID10 | FreeNAS | ZFS | LSI SAS
 
Shouefref
Gerbil
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:47 am

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:16 pm

I know you won't admit there is a flawed reasoning behind those greyed-out options, but I want to try to make it clear anyway (no pun intended):

If an option is not ticked, the user nevertheless has to decide whether it should be ticked or not.
Greying out non ticked options is therefore pointless, because the state of the option does not play a role in the level of readability. All options have to be readable to the same degree.

That you don't want to admit it, is typical IT fanboy behaviour, and I'm not the only one who complains about it.
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 53714
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:09 pm

Thing is, most of us don't seem to have a readability issue with the greyed out options; therefore your argument seems superfluous. Greying them out conveys in a very straightforward way the idea that the option isn't currently selectable, without taking up any additional screen real estate.

IMO a much bigger issue is the use of red/green color coding in user interfaces to convey different states. You're basically making it impossible for roughly 1 in 20 people (those with red/green color blindness) to tell what state is currently selected.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Waco
Gold subscriber
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3263
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: Los Alamos, NM

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:52 pm

Shouefref wrote:
If an option is not ticked, the user nevertheless has to decide whether it should be ticked or not.

No, they do not. They cannot tick the box if it is grayed out, that is entirely the point.
Desktop: X570 Gaming X | 3900X | 32 GB | Alphacool Eisblock Radeon VII | Heatkiller R3 | Samsung 4K 40" | 1 TB SX8200 Pro + 2 TB 660p + 2 TB SATA SSD
NAS: 1950X | Designare EX | 32 GB ECC | 7x8 TB RAIDZ2 | 8x2 TB RAID10 | FreeNAS | ZFS | LSI SAS
 
Wirko
Gold subscriber
Gerbil Team Leader
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:38 am
Location: Central Europe

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:29 pm

Look at these examples: https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/tutorials/how-to-start-windows-in-safe-mode/. They're not even from XP but 98!

Figure 2: several disabled checkboxes, grey on grey, because you can't change their state and their state doesn't matter until you click "Selective startup". Figure 3: A disabled checkbox and a disabled input field, grey on grey. Figure 6 is from XP and has some nice disabled buttons.

But there's an older reference available, too. WordStar! Here, with important (not disabled) settings in dark grey on dark blue: http://texteditors.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WordStar. Note that with only 16 colours available, one needs to choose very carefully to pick two that are the most similar.
 
Igor_Kavinski
Graphmaster Gerbil
Posts: 1120
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:34 am

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:47 am

Shouefref wrote:
That you don't want to admit it, is typical IT fanboy behaviour, and I'm not the only one who complains about it.


It's not an "IT" problem. It's a UI/UX problem so blame those folks. But maybe they are just mindless slaves of the trend and afraid to address real issues because that might bring them directly in the line of fire of their peers and design "experts".

https://www.wired.com/2016/10/how-the-w ... nreadable/
 
Shouefref
Gerbil
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:47 am

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:28 pm

Thank you.

I would like to add that I agree with Just brew it about the red/green problem too, but that doesn't occur that much in software - which doesn't mean they should introduce it or not avoid it.
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 53714
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:48 pm

Shouefref wrote:
I would like to add that I agree with Just brew it about the red/green problem too, but that doesn't occur that much in software - which doesn't mean they should introduce it or not avoid it.

It's all over the frikkin' place. You probably just don't realize it because you're not colorblind. It's even more common with physical indicators (LEDs) - bi-color LEDs (where a single LED changes from green to red to indicate some sort of fault condition) drive me absolutely nuts. Bi-color red/green LEDs need to DIAF.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Shouefref
Gerbil
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:47 am

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:38 am

Most people have bad eyes. It's astonishing how many people using computers are wearing eye glasses. They tend to think it's because of their eyes monitors are difficult to read. But that's not true. And IT sales personal tends to intimidate people to make them believe it's not a problem with monitors, but with their the client's eyesight.
Which is not true.
I remember back in the 90's the computer monitors were very tiring to the eyes, and we as users would never have blamed the monitors for a lack of quality. Whereas it WAS due to the monitors, because we didn't have that problem when reading on paper.
We're in the same situation at the moment. the UI/UX interface has become bad, and users tend to blame themselves, whereas in reality the developpers are to blame.
 
Igor_Kavinski
Graphmaster Gerbil
Posts: 1120
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:34 am

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:34 am

Shouefref wrote:
I remember back in the 90's the computer monitors were very tiring to the eyes, and we as users would never have blamed the monitors for a lack of quality. Whereas it WAS due to the monitors, because we didn't have that problem when reading on paper.


I remember in those days cheap CRT VGA monitors did not have any radiation shielding so cautious people would buy radiation filtering screens that would turn the screen a bit dark to look at but very, very easy on the eyes. One of my friends did not get a filter for his monitor coz his dad was cheap I guess. My friend was a hyper type of person. Just too much energy and too much talking. He was spending hours on his computer looking at that damn monitor. It was really harsh trying to do anything on his monitor and within minutes it gave me a serious headache. A few months later, while playing football in school, my friend collapsed. Reports came back that he had a brain tumor. He was immediately scheduled for surgery. Unfortunately, even though the surgery was successful and he was out of danger, it kinda lobotomized him. He would just look at you silently and stare and try so hard to speak but his lips wouldn't move. Only his mother understood him somehow. After a while, his family visited us for a get together. I remember sitting in my room with him and trying to get him to say just one word but no dice. Eventually, his mother came in with a piece of chicken for him to eat. She kept trying to feed him but he wouldn't eat. Finally, she broke down crying and took him away. I don't know if that monitor really was to blame for his tumor. I never saw him again. I hope and pray that he is in peace.
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 53714
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:56 am

That's awful. Sorry about your friend.

But to get a brain tumor at such a young age there almost certainly was some sort of genetic predisposition and/or exposure to chemical carcinogens in the environment. Between arcade video games and PCs, millions of people my age have stared at CRTs at close range for hours a day, for multiple decades, until LCDs became the norm. I'm not aware of any study that says we're at statistically elevated risk for brain tumors. And in any case, if excess radiation from CRTs promoted tumor formation at all, wouldn't you expect it to be causing retinal tumors, not brain tumors?
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Igor_Kavinski
Graphmaster Gerbil
Posts: 1120
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:34 am

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:48 pm

just brew it! wrote:
And in any case, if excess radiation from CRTs promoted tumor formation at all, wouldn't you expect it to be causing retinal tumors, not brain tumors?

I surmised that based solely on my horrible headache-inducing experience with his monitor. I think parts of our body exposed to the elements are more resilient to radiation because they have to be otherwise we wouldn't survive long without getting tumors since they are the ones exposed to all kinds of radiation almost ALL the time. Brain cells are probably more sensitive and less able to fend off radiation because normally they are protected by our thick skulls so they just have had less experience dealing with radiation doses over the course of human evolutionary history. There's a rodent brain study on simulated low dose space radiation that suggests brain cells have trouble dealing with consistent low radiation doses: http://theconversation.com/astronauts-b ... ion-121407
 
Waco
Gold subscriber
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3263
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: Los Alamos, NM

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:20 am

No. CRTs do not emit any amount of radiation to be considered harmful.
Desktop: X570 Gaming X | 3900X | 32 GB | Alphacool Eisblock Radeon VII | Heatkiller R3 | Samsung 4K 40" | 1 TB SX8200 Pro + 2 TB 660p + 2 TB SATA SSD
NAS: 1950X | Designare EX | 32 GB ECC | 7x8 TB RAIDZ2 | 8x2 TB RAID10 | FreeNAS | ZFS | LSI SAS
 
Igor_Kavinski
Graphmaster Gerbil
Posts: 1120
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:34 am

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:33 am

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/ ... ve/570916/

What are the chances that monitor was manufactured by some company that cut costs on properly limiting the radiation exposure of its electron gun?
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 53714
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:25 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
And in any case, if excess radiation from CRTs promoted tumor formation at all, wouldn't you expect it to be causing retinal tumors, not brain tumors?

I surmised that based solely on my horrible headache-inducing experience with his monitor.

Much more likely due to flicker. Even if it was not bad enough that you were aware of it consciously, flicker from CRT refresh (especially at rates below 75 Hz) was a well-known cause of eyestrain and headaches. Unlike LCDs (which retain the entire image between frames), CRTs start to fade out after each refresh, causing the brightness of the displayed image to pulsate at the refresh rate. CRTs also have a tendency to go out of focus (fuzzy image) and have convergence issues (misalignment of the R/G/B color components), especially towards the corners of the display; this results in additional eyestrain.

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
I think parts of our body exposed to the elements are more resilient to radiation because they have to be otherwise we wouldn't survive long without getting tumors since they are the ones exposed to all kinds of radiation almost ALL the time.

Any citations to support this? Many carcinogens are inhaled or ingested, so your internal vs. external exposure distinction doesn't really make much sense.

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/09/when-televisions-were-radioactive/570916/

What are the chances that monitor was manufactured by some company that cut costs on properly limiting the radiation exposure of its electron gun?

Possible but unlikely, especially if it was a major brand.

Also worth noting is that CRT computer monitors are generally smaller than color televisions, and will tend to operate their electron guns at lower voltages. This should result in lower emissions.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Igor_Kavinski
Graphmaster Gerbil
Posts: 1120
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:34 am

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:09 am

We both got our PC's from the same shop with almost identical configurations. A 386DX-40 with 4MB ram and I think a 200MB Conner hdd with DOS 5.0. It wasn't flicker unless a dark filter is supposed to offset that since I didn't experience any discomfort when viewing through the filter. Monitors were definitely some obscure 14 inch brand that I don't remember. I think the brand name started with D something. Digitec or whatever. I'm not saying the monitor WAS the cause of my friend's brain tumor but it is just how I remember it and since he was a good friend, I guess it makes sense to want to blame someone or something. ANYTHING.
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 53714
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:31 am

If a glare filter fixed it your issue was probably ambient light reflecting off the screen and/or poor contrast; a filter isn't going to do much to block x-rays unless it's made of leaded glass.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
JustAnEngineer
Gold subscriber
Gerbil God
Posts: 19131
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Heart of Dixie

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:17 am

just brew it! wrote:
A filter isn't going to do much... unless it's made of leaded glass.
...or gold.
https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-o ... avehicular
https://spinoff.nasa.gov/spinoff1997/hm2.html
i7-9700K, NH-D15, Z390M Pro4, 32 GiB, RX Vega64, Define Mini-C, SSR-850PX, UltraSharp U2410, CVT Avant Prime, DeathAdder, Audioengine HD3+S8
 
Shouefref
Gerbil
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:47 am

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:27 pm

I would like to post a photo, but it's very difficult to be sure you get the same impression I have, because the rendering of the photo on your screens influences tthat impression.

By the way: I have just met a graphical artist who happened to be using his computer, and he agreed with me, especially with the dark grey on light grey issue, which is one of the most stupid ideas they ever came up with.

Actually, lot's of people whith whom I talked about it, agreed. It are only IT sales persons who disagree, and people who seem to be fanboys when IT is concerned. Others are not happy with it.
 
Waco
Gold subscriber
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3263
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: Los Alamos, NM

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:16 pm

Shouefref wrote:
Actually, lot's of people whith whom I talked about it, agreed. It are only IT sales persons who disagree, and people who seem to be fanboys when IT is concerned. Others are not happy with it.

I'm not an IT sales person. I disagree 100% with you.
Desktop: X570 Gaming X | 3900X | 32 GB | Alphacool Eisblock Radeon VII | Heatkiller R3 | Samsung 4K 40" | 1 TB SX8200 Pro + 2 TB 660p + 2 TB SATA SSD
NAS: 1950X | Designare EX | 32 GB ECC | 7x8 TB RAIDZ2 | 8x2 TB RAID10 | FreeNAS | ZFS | LSI SAS
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 53714
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:20 pm

Waco wrote:
Shouefref wrote:
Actually, lot's of people whith whom I talked about it, agreed. It are only IT sales persons who disagree, and people who seem to be fanboys when IT is concerned. Others are not happy with it.

I'm not an IT sales person. I disagree 100% with you.

You must be a fanboy then! :P
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Flying Fox
Gerbil God
Posts: 25542
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 2:19 am
Contact:

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:26 am

Your normal sales at Best Buy/Fry's are not IT. Stop conflating the two and mix everything with "IT". The term is as overloaded as it is already. Anybody using some sort of tech is now labelled as IT, WTFH? :evil:

I'm also not too sure what this "grey on grey thing" that you keep harping on. My Windows 7 Explorer is basically white with a tint of blue in its main areas.
https://www.howtogeek.com/wp-content/up ... folder.png

Windows 10 may be what you were referring to, but I remember the start of this thread you were bitching at Windows 7 as well. Either you are quite confused or you don't know what you are talking about. For the record I can see the Windows 10 scroll bars just fine. I can't say my eyes are better than you, but just that our eyes are... different. Themes and colouring play a role unless you tell us what you are using (I don't remember you ever mention it, just others speculating about the high contrast theme and such).
The Model M is not for the faint of heart. You either like them or hate them.

Gerbils unite! Fold for UnitedGerbilNation, team 2630.
 
Waco
Gold subscriber
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3263
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: Los Alamos, NM

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:54 pm

The entire argument is nonsense, really. Super high contrast is also bad for your eyes; and UI designers generally don't design things that are hard to read.
Desktop: X570 Gaming X | 3900X | 32 GB | Alphacool Eisblock Radeon VII | Heatkiller R3 | Samsung 4K 40" | 1 TB SX8200 Pro + 2 TB 660p + 2 TB SATA SSD
NAS: 1950X | Designare EX | 32 GB ECC | 7x8 TB RAIDZ2 | 8x2 TB RAID10 | FreeNAS | ZFS | LSI SAS
 
Shouefref
Gerbil
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:47 am

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:50 am

Complaining about it on this site is not the best place, because people on this site are by definition computer fans. They will only reluctantly admit something is wrong.
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 53714
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:11 am

Shouefref wrote:
They will only reluctantly admit something is wrong.

Oh, the irony!
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Shouefref
Gerbil
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:47 am

Re: Sick screens and sick screen handling

Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:15 am

If I open a picture in W XP, I open it automatically in a program in which I only need 1 mouseclick to save it under another name.
Now I need 2 clicks.
With a hundred picutres, that 1 hundred clickes extra.
Which moron comes up with such stupid 'improvements'?

Saving files in Word has become a disaster.
Not to mention that I can't even see which version of Word I have.
Again: Which moron comes up with such stupid 'improvements'?

And bugs!
There are bugs in W10 which did not exist in W XP.

I don't start about "you can change everything", because that's crap.
You cannot.
If somebody tells you you can change something, bluntly challenge them to actually DO IT! In at least 90% of the case they can't!
Once somebody told me I had to change the ink colour in the registry, for god's sake!
We're not supposed to meddle with the registry.

W10 is crap.
The newest MS Offices are crap.

Yes, we should go back ten years to have W XP again. That was much better. People who say that isn't true, have never used W XP.

The only improvement in pc's nowadays is the hardware.
The hardware is fantastic, but the software is programmend by morons, or autists, or stuborn idiots who only care fot the theories, or whatever. But not by people who want to make a good computer.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests
GZIP: On