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Ikepuska
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:06 pm

whm1974 wrote:
[quote="Ikepuska]That's true, but I think of SteamOS as a part of the mostly successful push to start developers down the path of Linux ports. It's arguable if it was a necessary part or not, but I personally think that having a defined development target and the marketing features of SteamOS were preconditions to the larger success of the Linux Gaming movement.

We can agree or not on that last point, but I don't think we'd have gotten Shadow of Mordor on Linux without Steam Machines and SteamOS being a thing. That's just my opinion.[/quote]
I agree with you on both points. Although like I said before, I doubt that most of the folks who brought Steam Machines are using them as Living Room game consoles.[/quote][/quote]


I actually am! Just not only on the SteamOS side, I got a trackball and keyboard from logitec along with the wireless controller for when I'm in windows. I think, with careful shopping, that mid tier gaming can be had for ~ the price of the parts give or take with a warrantee and no need to buy the OS from them. It could be that I just lucked out though, since I've stopped looking once I got mine.
 
whm1974
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:33 pm

Ikepuska wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
[quote="Ikepuska]That's true, but I think of SteamOS as a part of the mostly successful push to start developers down the path of Linux ports. It's arguable if it was a necessary part or not, but I personally think that having a defined development target and the marketing features of SteamOS were preconditions to the larger success of the Linux Gaming movement.

We can agree or not on that last point, but I don't think we'd have gotten Shadow of Mordor on Linux without Steam Machines and SteamOS being a thing. That's just my opinion.[/quote]
I agree with you on both points. Although like I said before, I doubt that most of the folks who brought Steam Machines are using them as Living Room game consoles.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

I actually am! Just not only on the SteamOS side, I got a trackball and keyboard from logitec along with the wireless controller for when I'm in windows. I think, with careful shopping, that mid tier gaming can be had for ~ the price of the parts give or take with a warrantee and no need to buy the OS from them. It could be that I just lucked out though, since I've stopped looking once I got mine.[/quote]

Well I suppose some people are into PC gaming in the living room. The Steam Controller does make it a lot easier to do this.
 
Ikepuska
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:57 pm

whm1974 wrote:
Well I suppose some people are into PC gaming in the living room. The Steam Controller does make it a lot easier to do this.


And to be fair, even without SteamOS a lot of people were moving in that direction. It was accomplished due to the success of the SFF movement I think. So in some ways SteamOS seems to be something a little more realistic, but only because of the couch PC movement that exists independently.
 
whm1974
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:10 pm

Ikepuska wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Well I suppose some people are into PC gaming in the living room. The Steam Controller does make it a lot easier to do this.


And to be fair, even without SteamOS a lot of people were moving in that direction. It was accomplished due to the success of the SFF movement I think. So in some ways SteamOS seems to be something a little more realistic, but only because of the couch PC movement that exists independently.

Well after I purchased my Steam Controller, I did run the HDMI cable from my TV to my computer and sat in my lazy boy to try it out with Rising Tide. Had a hard time making out the UI and couldn't read the messages.
 
Ikepuska
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:46 am

whm1974 wrote:
Ikepuska wrote:
And to be fair, even without SteamOS a lot of people were moving in that direction. It was accomplished due to the success of the SFF movement I think. So in some ways SteamOS seems to be something a little more realistic, but only because of the couch PC movement that exists independently.

Well after I purchased my Steam Controller, I did run the HDMI cable from my TV to my computer and sat in my lazy boy to try it out with Rising Tide. Had a hard time making out the UI and couldn't read the messages.


To be honest, I generally only play the games on my TV that were console ports, with a few small exceptions. Those games generally have the 10foot UI baked in, especially when they detect a controller. I don't have a steam controller however, so I can't speak to how games respond to it, but if it doesn't use the xinput api, a lot of games won't switch their UI over.
 
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:09 am

Ikepuska wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Ikepuska wrote:
And to be fair, even without SteamOS a lot of people were moving in that direction. It was accomplished due to the success of the SFF movement I think. So in some ways SteamOS seems to be something a little more realistic, but only because of the couch PC movement that exists independently.

Well after I purchased my Steam Controller, I did run the HDMI cable from my TV to my computer and sat in my lazy boy to try it out with Rising Tide. Had a hard time making out the UI and couldn't read the messages.


To be honest, I generally only play the games on my TV that were console ports, with a few small exceptions. Those games generally have the 10foot UI baked in, especially when they detect a controller. I don't have a steam controller however, so I can't speak to how games respond to it, but if it doesn't use the xinput api, a lot of games won't switch their UI over.


Same here. I used to have an XBox 360 and a desktop PC. When the time came to replace the 360, I swapped it out for another PC. TV is for controller oriented games, desktop is for mouse driven games (i.e. point'n'click adventures, and strategy).
 
Deanjo
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:28 am

whm1974 wrote:
Although like I said before, I doubt that most of the folks who brought Steam Machines are using them as Living Room game consoles.


Of the people that I know that have purchased them (11 people and the one lucky bastard that got one of the original test machines), all of them are in the living room.

I respectfully think you are off base with your assumption. Most of them also have also installed Kodi on their SteamOS as well.
 
whm1974
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:36 am

Deanjo wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Although like I said before, I doubt that most of the folks who brought Steam Machines are using them as Living Room game consoles.


Of the people that I know that have purchased them (11 people and the one lucky bastard that got one of the original test machines), all of them are in the living room.

I respectfully think you are off base with your assumption. Most of them also have also installed Kodi on their SteamOS as well.

My assumption is based on the fact that the Steam Machines are nothing more then PCs bundled with a gamepad instead of KBM and a simplified OS.
 
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:47 am

whm1974 wrote:
Deanjo wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Although like I said before, I doubt that most of the folks who brought Steam Machines are using them as Living Room game consoles.


Of the people that I know that have purchased them (11 people and the one lucky bastard that got one of the original test machines), all of them are in the living room.

I respectfully think you are off base with your assumption. Most of them also have also installed Kodi on their SteamOS as well.

My assumption is based on the fact that the Steam Machines are nothing more then PCs bundled with a gamepad instead of KBM and a simplified OS.


Well first of all, seeing that they are shipped that way, with a 10 foot interface as well I would be surprised if you actually saw them being used regularly as workstations. As far as the "simplified OS" goes, it is just as full featured as the next linux distro, it also comes with a desktop if you wish to boot to it or simply add a few repositories for everything else. What SteamOS has is a lot of kernel tweaks to optimize items like latency and disabling items that are not needed on a typical desktop. Using something like Debian or Ubuntu and running Steam on it will not have the same default kernel configs as SteamOS and will be more geared to a happy "middle ground" config for the multiple roles that the system can be used for.
 
whm1974
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:57 am

Deanjo wrote:
Well first of all, seeing that they are shipped that way, with a 10 foot interface as well I would be surprised if you actually saw them being used regularly as workstations. As far as the "simplified OS" goes, it is just as full featured as the next linux distro, it also comes with a desktop if you wish to boot to it or simply add a few repositories for everything else. What SteamOS has is a lot of kernel tweaks to optimize items like latency and disabling items that are not needed on a typical desktop. Using something like Debian or Ubuntu and running Steam on it will not have the same default kernel configs as SteamOS and will be more geared to a happy "middle ground" config for the multiple roles that the system can be used for.

Well OK I guess I was way off.
 
Ikepuska
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:51 pm

Bottom line, I think the state of the industry is improved by the existence of Steam Machines and SteamOS. Which comes with the same caveats as laptops which include that a lot of it is horrible from a hardware perspective.

As for the OS, honestly I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that improvments will come when the games industry has a kind of major shift, like Microsoft managed in the console space with bad decisions before the release of XB1 and poor messaging. We are feeling the preshocks with some of MS's messaging already, IMHO.
 
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:56 pm

Does anyone have any idea how Steam Machines or Steam Controllers have been sold?
 
Prestige Worldwide
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:01 pm

Apparently there is a native Kodi app for the Steam link. Desktop gaming PC + Steam Link for gaming, NAS + Steam Link for multimedia is the way I see myself going over the next year.
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whm1974
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:12 pm

I suppose if I was going to buy a Steam Machine, I'll get the Zotac Nen SN970. Too bad it's a $1000:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6883218057
 
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:23 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote:
Apparently there is a native Kodi app for the Steam link. Desktop gaming PC + Steam Link for gaming, NAS + Steam Link for multimedia is the way I see myself going over the next year.

I have a Chromebox as HTPC/Steam 'link' with a 5TB USB3 external HDD. It doesn't do RAID or anything and yes you can hear the HDD in the living room, that said I'm not using it as any kind of backup and the HDD is quiet enough that I'm not bothered by it at all. The Steam Link is the best way to use in home streaming though, so I highly recommend it
 
whm1974
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:32 am

Speaking of living room PC gaming, how many folks do this?
 
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:27 am

whm1974 wrote:
Speaking of living room PC gaming, how many folks do this?


42
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w76
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:50 am

Kretschmer wrote:
w76 wrote:
I think there's tons of demand for a desktop OS that doesn't suck and isn't Windows

Why? There's a vocal minority that plays with different OSes for a hobby, but most people are going to go where the applications/support is and where their existing skills apply.


It's vocal because everyone on the internet whines, and minority because, as I stated, alternatives suck. That's NOT the case on mobile platforms, where you see almost everyone at least willing to experiment with different OS's, such as Android, iOS, most people will even play with Windows Phone's, some even like the OS until they open the app store. I don't think I know anyone who has just an Android or iOS phone and has never picked up and played with an alternative, and I suspect many people have at one time or another owned a device from both ecosystems. For example, I owned an iPad Mini for a bit and did a truly awful year with a Windows Phone, but otherwise all Android, BlackBerry before that.

Remove the barrier of alternatives to Windows being lousy and I see no logical reason at all why people wouldn't experiment more freely, just like they do with the devices in their pockets.

Also, I suspect it's not a minority of users that disliked Windows 8, otherwise Metro would still be with us front and center on the desktop (if it sold like hotcakes, MS would have no reason to care what we geeks think, they couldn't hear us over the sound of the money raining from the sky), and I suspect it's not a minority of informed users that aren't happy with Win10's handling of various things, such as updates and privacy.
 
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:15 am

I love the thought and premise behind SteamOS and gaming on Linux, but it just isn't quite there yet for me. Not only do most of the games I play not run on Linux yet, there is barely any peripheral support for Linux yet either. So I can't use my G13, Orbweaver, or any of the special functions of my G700s in Linux. As soon as I get peripheral support in Linux, I may switch for my primary boot, but until then I am forced to stick with Windows.
 
just brew it!
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:04 am

w76 wrote:
Kretschmer wrote:
w76 wrote:
I think there's tons of demand for a desktop OS that doesn't suck and isn't Windows

Why? There's a vocal minority that plays with different OSes for a hobby, but most people are going to go where the applications/support is and where their existing skills apply.

It's vocal because everyone on the internet whines, and minority because, as I stated, alternatives suck.

That's a pretty big over-generalization. Yes, if your use case requires Windows-specific software, anything that isn't Windows is going to suck by definition. Take that out of the equation, and some of the Linux distros start to look very reasonable.

I've been a very happy Linux user for the past 6+ years. And no, I don't "play with different OSes for a hobby" any more; that phase only lasted until I found a distro that I felt completely comfortable with (which turned out to be Kubuntu, the KDE respin of Ubuntu). These days, when I set up a machine I typically put the latest Kubuntu LTS on it, and leave that in place at least until the next LTS release comes out and has had some time to stabilize (so I tend to upgrade the OS on a 2 year cycle that lags the LTS release schedule by several months).
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Prestige Worldwide
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:08 am

Firestarter wrote:
Prestige Worldwide wrote:
Apparently there is a native Kodi app for the Steam link. Desktop gaming PC + Steam Link for gaming, NAS + Steam Link for multimedia is the way I see myself going over the next year.

I have a Chromebox as HTPC/Steam 'link' with a 5TB USB3 external HDD. It doesn't do RAID or anything and yes you can hear the HDD in the living room, that said I'm not using it as any kind of backup and the HDD is quiet enough that I'm not bothered by it at all. The Steam Link is the best way to use in home streaming though, so I highly recommend it


Right now I have an old parts build serving as an oversized HTPC - Antec Nine Hundred with i5 750 (OC'd 4 GHz), 8GB RAM, and GTX 670. I have a 1 TB WD Black and 640 GB WD black, as well as an external 1TB HDD. It does well enough for midrange gaming, but is overkill for watching HD videos.

I would very much like to replace it with a low power machine like the Steam Link, and a NAS for media storage.

I tried the Steam Link at my sister-in law's house, she has a Steam Link with wired 100mbit ethernet paired with a 47" HDTV, and a 4790k / Fury X desktop PC in another room. It ran the Division maxed out flawlessly so I'm sold. For $60 you can't go wrong.
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Ikepuska
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:12 am

Off topic but in house streaming and my new steambox is part of the reason I'm thinking about wiring my whole house with wired network lines.

One set of fiber and one set of cat 6 ethernet. I realize that is overkill, but since I'm going to be wiring it anyways, I say screw it. The benefit is that I'll be able to get those cheap ebay fiber cards for the computers, and use network cable for anything non expandable. I have about 30 wireless networks I can detect at my house on 2.4, so I'm going to try and minimize my own wireless device use for anything that's bandwidth sensitive.

Unfortunately my NAS (DS2413+) doesn't have an expansion port, although it's got dual gigabit and supports teaming, so any switch that supports fiber will support teaming on the copper.

I'm just so done with consumer network gear, I'm going to be getting a nearline WAP, managed Switch and gateway router, and be done with it. Especially since within the next 12 months Windstream is supposed to be providing fiber network capability. I may pay for fiber all the way to the router, if they'll let me.
 
whm1974
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:49 pm

just brew it! wrote:
w76 wrote:
It's vocal because everyone on the internet whines, and minority because, as I stated, alternatives suck.

That's a pretty big over-generalization. Yes, if your use case requires Windows-specific software, anything that isn't Windows is going to suck by definition. Take that out of the equation, and some of the Linux distros start to look very reasonable.

Yeah if you don't need anything Windows specific, then switching over to Linux is fairly simple if you do your homework.
 
whm1974
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:21 am

OK how spot on or way off am I with my assumption that most of the people who purchased Steam Machines are using them as computers instead for PC gaming in the Living Room?
 
Ikepuska
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:49 am

Not having access to the sales data I can only extrapolate from what I have read, and anecdotal information.

My personal experience, and from what I've read is that Steam Machines aren't enough cheaper than say a NUC or other PC of the type to be the go to choice for people using it as a regular PC. The compromises the form factor entails, and the pricing means that it's quite good bang for buck as a living room pc, but if you are after a small form factor for desktop use, there are other alternatives that may be more compelling.

If your use case is computer games, but you still want the form factor then that may be, but anyone willing to experiment with something like SteamOS is probably willing to build their own ITX system, or knows someone who would do it for them. Now, there are a few sellers like CyberpowerPC where you can get a SFF system and they're willing to install steamOS on it instead of windows to save you some money, but... I don't really count those as SteamBoxes.

So in summary, while I don't have hard data to back it up, based on the ArsTechnica articles, and looking at pricing some clear patterns emerge. Unless you are planning on using them for gaming they don't make sense. And if you are using them for gaming there are better alternatives unless the 10 ft UI or other couch centric features are the attractive part.
 
whm1974
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:33 pm

Ikepuska wrote:
Not having access to the sales data I can only extrapolate from what I have read, and anecdotal information.

My personal experience, and from what I've read is that Steam Machines aren't enough cheaper than say a NUC or other PC of the type to be the go to choice for people using it as a regular PC. The compromises the form factor entails, and the pricing means that it's quite good bang for buck as a living room pc, but if you are after a small form factor for desktop use, there are other alternatives that may be more compelling.

If your use case is computer games, but you still want the form factor then that may be, but anyone willing to experiment with something like SteamOS is probably willing to build their own ITX system, or knows someone who would do it for them. Now, there are a few sellers like CyberpowerPC where you can get a SFF system and they're willing to install steamOS on it instead of windows to save you some money, but... I don't really count those as SteamBoxes.

So in summary, while I don't have hard data to back it up, based on the ArsTechnica articles, and looking at pricing some clear patterns emerge. Unless you are planning on using them for gaming they don't make sense. And if you are using them for gaming there are better alternatives unless the 10 ft UI or other couch centric features are the attractive part.


I have been eyeing the Zotac SN970 as the one to get if I was going to buy a Steam Machine. But for what it cost I would add a KBM so I can get my money's worth out of it. But I like to build my systems and I have no need for a SFF gaming PC.
 
Ikepuska
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:54 pm

whm1974 wrote:
I have been eyeing the Zotac SN970 as the one to get if I was going to buy a Steam Machine. But for what it cost I would add a KBM so I can get my money's worth out of it. But I like to build my systems and I have no need for a SFF gaming PC.


In my case I got the Syber from CyberPowerPC during it's 24hours black Friday sale. It was $100 off plus had a $100MIR. As an added advantage it used a bog standard GA-Z97N-Gaming5 ITX MB and the upgrades were very very reasonably priced. Personally, I wouldn't get one of them that wasn't using off the shelf components, unless I was in the market for basically a NUC.

I did add a KBM to mine, just in the form of a wireless trackball and KB so I could still use it from the couch. Having said that, it probably would make a perfectly serviceable PC, but then so would getting one of those business workstations you can get for ~$300. ETA: By those I mean the i5 and i7 Ivy or Sandy systems that are refurbished or resold during lifecycle upgrades.

Edit: Grammar
 
whm1974
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:22 pm

Ikepuska wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
I have been eyeing the Zotac SN970 as the one to get if I was going to buy a Steam Machine. But for what it cost I would add a KBM so I can get my money's worth out of it. But I like to build my systems and I have no need for a SFF gaming PC.


In my case I got the Syber from CyberPowerPC during it's 24hours black Friday sale. It was $100 off plus had a $100MIR. As an added advantage it used a bog standard GA-Z97N-Gaming5 ITX MB and the upgrades were very very reasonably priced. Personally, I wouldn't get one of them that wasn't using off the shelf components, unless I was in the market for basically a NUC.

IIRC wasn't the Syber sold out within a few hours of going on sale?
 
Ikepuska
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:12 pm

It was close to 8 hours into the sale as I recall, I was able to get one after Ars ran a story about it, which was about ~4 PM EST when I pushed buy? It didn't last all 24 hours, and I know they ended up upgrading the hardware on some of the last few they shipped, which is how I ended up with a Z97N-Gaming5 instead of the Z97N-Wifi that was in the config I ordered (not that I'm complaining).
 
whm1974
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Re: Thoughts on Steam Machines and SteamOS.

Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:02 pm

Ikepuska wrote:
It was close to 8 hours into the sale as I recall, I was able to get one after Ars ran a story about it, which was about ~4 PM EST when I pushed buy? It didn't last all 24 hours, and I know they ended up upgrading the hardware on some of the last few they shipped, which is how I ended up with a Z97N-Gaming5 instead of the Z97N-Wifi that was in the config I ordered (not that I'm complaining).

So how do you like it?

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