Personal computing discussed

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titan
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Re: Desktop environments suck

Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:40 pm

DancinJack wrote:
titan wrote:
Further, I have my Fluxbox set up just the way I want it to behave, which is hard to walk away from.


Seems pretty appropriate for a hardcore Gentoo user :)

I'm afraid it's worse than that. I'm a Gentoo Developer.
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just brew it!
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Re: Desktop environments suck

Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:53 pm

titan wrote:
DancinJack wrote:
titan wrote:
Further, I have my Fluxbox set up just the way I want it to behave, which is hard to walk away from.

Seems pretty appropriate for a hardcore Gentoo user :)

I'm afraid it's worse than that. I'm a Gentoo Developer.

I think they have a pill to cure that now.
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Re: Desktop environments suck

Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:56 pm

just brew it! wrote:
titan wrote:
DancinJack wrote:
Seems pretty appropriate for a hardcore Gentoo user :)

I'm afraid it's worse than that. I'm a Gentoo Developer.

I think they have a pill to cure that now.



Yes, they do. But it leaves you with a side-effect of an un-controllable desire for Sabayon...
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element
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Re: Desktop environments suck

Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:24 am

I happen to like GNOME with a few indispensable extensions added like Dash to Dock and others. GNOME, if you use extensions, is very configurable. You can even make it look like Windows 10 with the Dash to Panel extension (a fork of ZorinOS Taskbar which is a fork of Dash to Dock).

https://extensions.gnome.org/

Dash to Dock
https://micheleg.github.io/dash-to-dock/

Dash to Panel
https://github.com/jderose9/dash-to-panel
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synthtel2
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Re: Desktop environments suck

Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:32 pm

If I have to pull in extra code to get configurability that basic, there's a problem. Even Windows has more built-in configurability than Gnome, and every other Linux DE I've used isn't even comparable (including Cinnamon).

The closest other example I can think of is Firefox extensions. Sure, you can fix just about anything with FF extensions (for now), but if they were to remove all the built-in UI config, it would still be a really big problem.
 
whm1974
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Re: Desktop environments suck

Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:42 pm

synthtel2 wrote:
If I have to pull in extra code to get configurability that basic, there's a problem. Even Windows has more built-in configurability than Gnome, and every other Linux DE I've used isn't even comparable (including Cinnamon).

The closest other example I can think of is Firefox extensions. Sure, you can fix just about anything with FF extensions (for now), but if they were to remove all the built-in UI config, it would still be a really big problem.

The user should indeed be able to config the software to fit his needs.
 
DancinJack
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Re: Desktop environments suck

Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:46 pm

whm1974 wrote:
The user should indeed be able to config the software to fit his needs.


That's....not what synthtel was saying. The point was that if you have to ADD to what is already there to get basic functionality, there is something wrong. I'm not saying I necessarily agree, but I think it's more of a case by case basis.
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whm1974
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Re: Desktop environments suck

Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:04 pm

DancinJack wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
The user should indeed be able to config the software to fit his needs.


That's....not what synthtel was saying.  The point was that if you have to ADD to what is already there to get basic functionality, there is something wrong.  I'm not saying I necessarily agree, but I think it's more of a case by case basis.

Well that too. And I do agree with on that.
 
element
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Re: Desktop environments suck

Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:09 am

synthtel2 wrote:
If I have to pull in extra code to get configurability that basic, there's a problem. Even Windows has more built-in configurability than Gnome, and every other Linux DE I've used isn't even comparable (including Cinnamon).

The closest other example I can think of is Firefox extensions. Sure, you can fix just about anything with FF extensions (for now), but if they were to remove all the built-in UI config, it would still be a really big problem.

You don't need to use extension to have a working system. But if you want, you can adjust your desktop to fit your needs better. With Windows you don't have that choice, it's Microsofts way or no way,
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synthtel2
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Re: Desktop environments suck

Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:56 am

Entirely by coincidence, earlier today I was checking out Antergos and in the process used Gnome for a bit on a fast computer and with a variety of useful extensions on tap (including the ones you mentioned earlier). It's better, but that means my opinion got boosted from 0/10 to 1/10. It's still total garbage, but at least it isn't threatening to distort the entire scale like in Fedora's config.

The gap in configurability between Gnome and Windows is quite large even with Antergos' included extensions (of which there are one or two dozen), and it isn't in Linux's favor for once. It's sad.

I'm still very unconvinced that extensions are an acceptable way to do things. In a sane world, I can back up a dotfile or two, drop them into any system with the right DE, and get the behavior I expect. If we're allowing pulling in extra code, I could even get a 3rd party shell for Windows.

Overt problems I noticed in this round of configuring/using Gnome include the worst quality mouse acceleration ever (as described in my libinput rant), generally janky windowing / desktop access / application launching that takes too many clicks to do anything with (going to be a bit of personal opinion in that one), a great disrespect for my screen space (very low information density that can be lowered further but not raised), still being imperfectly fast on a GTX 960 with nouveau, logout weirdness (took me no fewer than six (6) clicks to shut down the system), a DM that has to wobble the clock to indicate it's clickable (clicking it is how you log in) because the UI is just that badly thought out, and lots and lots and lots of missing config options, including moronic stuff like putting suspend and hibernate but not shutdown on the "what to do when the power button is pressed" option box.

It's true that it's better though. I'm thinking this is about as unimpressed as I could possibly be, whereas before it was taking me to levels of Krogothdom I had no idea even existed.
 
bthylafh
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Re: Desktop environments suck

Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:02 am

Yeah, I'm still disappointed in Debian for choosing Gnome 3 in the first place and then reversing their decision to default to Xfce instead. I don't expect better out of Fedora, but I had hope for the Debian team.
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Vhalidictes
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Re: Desktop environments suck

Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:47 am

To be fair to the Gnome team, all 14 developers thought that the current UI was awesome. They wouldn't know it's horrible because they don't realize that user feedback is a thing.
 
Greyguy 1948
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Re: Desktop environments suck

Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:36 am

Hello, I am new on TR.
Interesting thread!
I am very fond of what I have in Raspberry Pi 3- nothing in Windows is better except the printer data base.
To run my new Ryzen I have tested for example Fedora and Linux Mint but they are worse.
 
whm1974
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Re: Desktop environments suck

Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:49 am

Greyguy 1948 wrote:
Hello, I am new on TR.
Interesting thread!
I am very fond of what I have in Raspberry Pi 3- nothing in Windows is better except the printer data base.
To run my new Ryzen I have tested for example Fedora and Linux Mint but they are worse.

Check out Manjaro Linux.
www.manjaro.org
 
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Re: Desktop environments suck

Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:25 am

Hey Greyguy, glad you're here. :)

If what you like on your Raspberry Pi is PIXEL, you can get Debian with PIXEL as the default DTE from the Raspberry Pi Foundation: https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/pixel-pc-mac/

I have zero idea how hardware support is, so definitely read up on it before you install, but it should (in theory) be just like what you're already used to. FWIW, Ars Technica had nice things to say in their blurb.
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fhohj
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Re: Desktop environments suck

Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:36 am

just brew it! wrote:

...

Re PulseAudio and systemd... it is amazing how one developer has managed to cause so much churn and controversy. At least where the audio stack is concerned, *something* needed to be done. We could argue over whether PulseAudio was the appropriate "something" (i would've personally gone for a more user-friendly wrapper around JACK instead of reinventing the wheel), but at least it has settled down now, after several years of pain. Systemd appears to be another matter entirely... most of what I've seen/learned indicates that it is a slow-motion train wreck that is slowly sucking all of the major (and many minor) subsystems into its orbit, creating a dependency hell the likes of which we have not seen since the "bad old days" of early Windows releases.


I remember that. JACK was supposed to be the future frontend to everything. It was supposed to be the way of the future. It was that and core and it looked like JACK was going to win. Then pulse showed up.

As for Desktop Environments, I agree they all suck the balls. XFCE wouldn't suck the balls if it wasn't GNOME with starvation. KDE wouldn't suck if it wasn't its own separate weird thing. GNOME wouldn't suck if it just didn't decide to dedicate itself to the art of suck one day. *box is out of date but still nice looking.

I used to use the fvwm-crystal on my Zenwalk system (this was like Zenwalk 3.0. well before the BS and the schism). I used to like the fvwm-crystal. Now that's out of date too though. I use XFCE now and wish it was as complete as GNOME.
 
synthtel2
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Re: Desktop environments suck

Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Someone from Canonical went and asked HN what stuff they wanted to see in 17.10, and Fedora takes the opportunity to show off. Except not, because they conspicuously didn't address certain things, and:

1 (HiDPI support) - What if I want higher information density, not lower? I'm not on a tablet here.
2 (multitouch gestures) - How about you first fix the worst mouse acceleration ever? Again, more people use mice than touchscreens.
3 (battery life) - HAHAHAHAHAHAHA no. Try again when the UI is light enough to be flawless on an average laptop.
4 (UEFI issues) - Who wants firmware included in routine updates, anyway? That sounds liable to cause lots of breakage. It sounds like there's some good back-end work there, but it'll be a long time before I'd trust it.
5 (Wayland) - Yeah yeah you won the standardization war to replace X. Don't let it go to your head.
6 (Night Light) - How much less work would it have taken to have supported Redshift, bundled Redshift, and provided a GUI wrapper for Redshift? Redshift is much better and NIH is dumb.
7 (graphics driver handling) - Thanks, this is actually important and a great thing to be working on.
8 (printer handling) - Same as above.
9 (bluetooth) - (I don't know enough about bluetooth to comment.)

Fedora guys: The difference here is that Canonical is asking what their problems are and actually taking the feedback at least a little bit seriously. You're just saying "look, we've got all the features!" while ignoring your weak points and any polish that can't be seen in screenshots. I'd give it a pass as just one isolated bit of bragging, but it isn't. It's an obvious pattern causing obvious problems.

</rant>

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