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whm1974
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:10 pm

just brew it! wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Redocbew wrote:
The majority of Windows users don't even notice the antics of Microsoft. They do not concern themselves with the innards of a PC unless absolutely necessary. You consort with the strange people who do.

And these folks wonder why they have such a malware problem. :roll:

It would not surprise me if poorly secured devices (routers, IoT, etc.) running embedded Linux are a bigger threat today than infected desktops. Furthermore, phishing and other forms of social engineering attacks are completely OS-agnostic.

True. You do have a point there. Which is why I setup the firewall on my dad's computer last time I was over there. And make sure mine is turn on. I also keep up with updates. Speaking of Social Engineering attacks, last year some some dude tried to convince me that I was given a grant by the Feds for being a good citizen. Of course they wanted me to send ~$240 to them first.
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:41 pm

whm1974 wrote:
Which is why I setup the firewall on my dad's computer last time I was over there. And make sure mine is turn on.

Please stop making up stuff as you go just to get attention. The forums you mentioned earlier tell a whole different story about your knowledge on firewalls: https://forum.manjaro.org/t/omg-i-was-r ... f/16641/28

just brew it!'s post that you quoted, concerns devices running embedded Linux. Whether you set up a firewall for your dad or ensure you always have the latest updates installed is irrelevant, as none of that protects the router, modem or whatever device you got running the embedded Linux OS.
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:57 pm

odizzido wrote:
Valve has the money to make a good linux distro for everyone. They also have the presence to effectively force game devs to make linux ports. Who knows if they will or not but they could.

The problem isn't that there aren't any good distros. The problem (for gaming) is the sorry state of GPU drivers. Sure, they can strong-arm game devs, because they have leverage there. But how, exactly, do you propose that they get the X.Org people and the GPU vendors to fix the driver situation?

They also have zero leverage over developers of any applications that aren't distributed primarily via Steam.

So Valve is going to have (and has been having) a tough time getting a Linux distro out there that works as well for PC gaming as Windows does. At the end of the day, it's questionable whether they will succeed in making a good Linux distro for gamers, never mind "everyone".
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:01 pm

whm1974 wrote:
So what do my fellow Linux users think?

I think you're delusional if you're serious. It's an awesome platform for a great many things, but if Joe Schmoe tries to use linux he'll run into an issue sooner or later that he won't be able to fix, far sooner than with Windows 10. I'm not talking about inconveniences like updates, I'm talking about stuff that is straight up broken. Fixable, sure, and pretty easily for people who are lucky enough to have a certain baseline digital competency, but still way too opaque for your average consumer. The only reason linux based devices like phones, set-top boxes and routers work well enough is because they were designed for a purpose and linux was just a foundation upon a consumer compatible experience was constructed. As soon as people actually have to deal with linux proper, they're going to need someone like us to fix something, something they might have well fixed themselves if it was Windows 10
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:02 pm

No.
 
deruberhanyok
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:11 pm

You're just basically proving my point with your responses, but:

whm1974 wrote:
1) This has been changing over the last few years as there are more "noob" friendly distros and forums now than there were. Manjaro and it's forum, which I use is very helpful to new Linux users. And yes I do agree that things can still be improved in these matters.


Right, so your solution is... use a different Linux. There's no "linux" so you try one, and everyone there is mean and dismissive, and you can't figure out how to make it work, so your best option is find a different one. How many people do you know who aren't technical users are going to put forth that sort of effort, or put up with that kind of nonsense?

whm1974 wrote:
2) Anyone thinking of moving to another platform should do their research. This does apply even if you are considering switching over to MacOS. I did my research before I installed my first distro. In fact, it is much easier now that live media is available which wasn't when I started.


This is the EXACT attitude I'm talking about. You're trying to be nice about it, but basically you are saying: if you can't be bothered to research all of this stuff beforehand you shouldn't be using it.

There's a whole insular culture that exists among a lot of people who post on tech forums and they forget the larger population just doesn't care. This attitude is so, so disheartening to see. We are all hugely passionate about technology, enough to be posting on this forum and probably lots of others. But instead of trying to teach, or really truly explain the benefits to alternative technologies, offer to set it up and show someone, make it seem open and inviting and friendly, what do you do? You say "well you should go do the research yourself, there's lots of people who will help on the internet." And the unspoken part of that is "but I won't help you, because you should be smart enough to figure it out, and if you're not, I don't want you using it anyways."

How is that supposed to be user-friendly and inviting?

Since you brought up Mac OS, which is an excellent example of what would need to be done for "Linux" to gain any real traction with regular everyday users, people buy a Mac because "oh they're supposed to be really nice" or "oh they don't have viruses like Windows" and then they will go and make a genius appointment to learn how to use their new Mac. Or they'll buy an iPad because it's easier. Or they'll buy the new iPhone just because it's the new iPhone. There's no research process here. They walk into the store and say "I want to buy a Macbook" and the sales guy says "which color?"

I mean, go sit in the back of an Apple store for a couple hours and listen to the questions people are asking. Do you think they all did their research before they bought their shiny new Mac? And, more importantly: if the Apple geniuses told them "Well, I'm sorry ma'am, but it appears you are not smart enough to use a Mac and you should go back to Windows, why did you even buy this Macbook?" that anyone would bother with them?
Last edited by deruberhanyok on Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:43 pm

Linux has been easy to use for a long time now.

That said, Win 10 doesn't have any more spyware or adware than Android or iOS or other modern OS.

Win 10 spyware is sending usability telemetry. Its adware is also a hell of a lot less annoying than 24 second youtube ads that play every other video.
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:33 pm

deruberhanyok wrote:
This is the EXACT attitude I'm talking about. You're trying to be nice about it, but basically you are saying: if you can't be bothered to research all of this stuff beforehand you shouldn't be using it.

There's a whole insular culture that exists among a lot of people who post on tech forums and they forget the larger population just doesn't care. This attitude is so, so disheartening to see. We are all hugely passionate about technology, enough to be posting on this forum and probably lots of others. But instead of trying to teach, or really truly explain the benefits to alternative technologies, offer to set it up and show someone, make it seem open and inviting and friendly, what do you do? You say "well you should go do the research yourself, there's lots of people who will help on the internet." And the unspoken part of that is "but I won't help you, because you should be smart enough to figure it out, and if you're not, I don't want you using it anyways."

How is that supposed to be user-friendly and inviting?


I couldn't agree more. What the crap is up with all these bizarre yet unhelpful choices? Seriously, it's almost like I need to do some research or something! Why can't I just walk into a dealership and get a sports car? But nooooooo....

I need to pick a model. You'd think that after I decided on a brand I'd be done, but nope, I typically have two (or more!) models to choose from just within a single brand! And then there are all these weird people saying that to get the most out of it I need to learn... what was it again? Manual transmission? Who even does that any more?

Then I have to decide if I want leather seats, I don't know, comes with a mandatory sunroof option, but that's nice to have... Not to mention that it comes in, what, 15 colors? But there's only 12 on the lot right now? What do you mean I could custom order? I just want a car! You know, to drive with!
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:06 pm

I tried to get Dead Island (**** that game) running on my Jessie install. It wouldn't run because it had library dependencies that weren't in Jessie, having been removed from being in Wheezy, but then yet were again included in testing (Stretch). So I tried packages from testing, didn't work. Tried upgrading to testing, didn't work. Tried something else I don't remember, didn't work. When I did get that bit working, I ran into some other problem.

I tried to get TF2 running (tf2 is best game). I'd run it, it would take literally 5 minutes to launch, no discernible CPU utilization, and then when it would launch, when I'd get in, it wouldn't be able to communicate with Steam and I wouldn't be able to find games or load my backpack. It's still in that state. Preliminary searching yielded nothing. syslogs yielded nothing helpful. I could go through the package information and see what packages are being drawn upon all along the dependency chain, parse though syslogs set all level, or I could just fire up Windows.

Now, this stuff probably works on SteamOS. I installed Debian, cause I like Debian, thinking, "hey this is probably finicky but reasonable, I've done some mind-melting stuff with Linux before. even if I have a chroot wrapped in a VM wrapped in a ramdisk wrapped in an entirely ridiculous buildchain relying entirely on LD_LIBRARY_PATH, I can get it to work!"

Well it don't work. After following the tutorials didn't work, I tried some things to get that to work, and it don't work.

Now I'm not trying to defend Windows. I'd be happy to leave that crap behind and do it all with Linux. As a lot of people have said though, once you hit problems, you hit some spicy problems.
 
whm1974
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:55 pm

fhohj wrote:
I tried to get Dead Island (**** that game) running on my Jessie install. It wouldn't run because it had library dependencies that weren't in Jessie, having been removed from being in Wheezy, but then yet were again included in testing (Stretch). So I tried packages from testing, didn't work. Tried upgrading to testing, didn't work. Tried something else I don't remember, didn't work. When I did get that bit working, I ran into some other problem.

I tried to get TF2 running (tf2 is best game). I'd run it, it would take literally 5 minutes to launch, no discernible CPU utilization, and then when it would launch, when I'd get in, it wouldn't be able to communicate with Steam and I wouldn't be able to find games or load my backpack. It's still in that state. Preliminary searching yielded nothing. syslogs yielded nothing helpful. I could go through the package information and see what packages are being drawn upon all along the dependency chain, parse though syslogs set all level, or I could just fire up Windows.

Now, this stuff probably works on SteamOS. I installed Debian, cause I like Debian, thinking, "hey this is probably finicky but reasonable, I've done some mind-melting stuff with Linux before. even if I have a chroot wrapped in a VM wrapped in a ramdisk wrapped in an entirely ridiculous buildchain relying entirely on LD_LIBRARY_PATH, I can get it to work!"

Well it don't work. After following the tutorials didn't work, I tried some things to get that to work, and it don't work.

Now I'm not trying to defend Windows. I'd be happy to leave that crap behind and do it all with Linux. As a lot of people have said though, once you hit problems, you hit some spicy problems.

May I recommend a modern distro with up to date packages? I'm using Manjaro with no problems what so ever playing games.
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:17 pm

whm1974 wrote:
May I recommend a modern distro with up to date packages? I'm using Manjaro with no problems what so ever playing a small selection of games that would probably run better on windows anyway.


Fixed.

I don't mean to be a jackass, and I have played games which behaved exactly the same on linux as they do in windows, but anyone who takes gaming on linux seriously has had at least one experience like the above. Most have had many more than one. Even with an OS that's hackable to the core the possibility that they're not "doing it wrong" and the game just didn't work is a very real one.
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deruberhanyok
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:33 pm

@Vhalidictes, Not entirely sure where you're going with the car example? It looks like you're trying to be sarcastic and use the example of buying a car to make a point that people are perfectly capable of doing their own research, so this shouldn't be any different. If that's the case, see below. If I mis-read, my apologies, please ignore what follows.

Let me start with the top 10 best selling car models in the US last year (source), classified by type of vehicle:

1) sedan
2) sedan
3) sedan
4) sedan
5) sedan
6) sedan
7) sedan
8) sedan
9) sedan
10) sedan

And let me walk you through the typical consumer's car buying process.

Customer walks into a dealership. Probably the same dealership used for service on existing car.
Sales guy greets customer and asks what brings customer in.
Customer says I need a new car. My old one sounds like a rusty duck.
Sales guy asks what kind of car.
Customer says, you know, 4 doors, not too big, not too small. Good gas mileage.

Sales guy spends the next hour or more helping the customer narrow down what kind of car, perhaps even a specific model. Answers customer's questions, offers helpful suggestions when the customer seems flummoxed. Walks the customer around the lot and points out different models, has customer sit in a few of them. Offers to have customer take it for a test drive. The customer maybe does this, drives it around for a while, pretends to know what's up and says things like "wow, it has a lot of pick-up" or "the ride is smooth". Maybe the customer leaves and repeats this process at a different dealership. Maybe the customer comes back a week later. Eventually the customer decides to buy a car, in which case they meet with a finance guy, maybe a manager or service department guy, who explain all of the warranties, finance options, extra parts, option packages, and so on. At the end the customer signs a giant stack of paperwork after agreeing to spend $35,000 on a brand new, fully optioned 2018 generic sedan. The dealer might then spend another hour showing the customer how to use the radio, A/C, etc, all of this other kind of stuff which is in the manual because they know customers never read the manual, which, I mean, it's right there in the glove compartment, why don't people ever read it?

At no point in this process did the customer think, hmm, you know, I should do all of my research beforehand. I should walk in there knowing exactly what model I want, with exactly what features I want, in exactly what color I want. I should actually check websites of all the dealerships in the area so I can find the exact vehicle I am going to buy, and then go to that dealership, give them the stock number and tell them they've got two hours to get the paperwork through or I'm out. To be fair, some people do this. It's how I shop for cars. My wife is the same way. But spend a little bit of time talking with the sales guys in that dealership and ask them how many people come in knowing exactly what they want vs. how many come in looking completely lost, and, bonus question, ask how many end up buying something entirely different from what they asked about in the first place.

And all of this on something that most customers will be paying for over the next 5-8 years (apparently 8 year car loans are a thing now, which, different conversation entirely, but wtf).

Walk into a Best Buy (you have walked into a Best Buy recently, haven't you?), find a sales rep in the PC section or over in home theatre and ask the same question - how often do people come in knowing exactly what they want? What are the most common questions you get asked (guarantee it will include one of my favorites: "is it fast", or, for home theatre, "how loud is it")? What's the biggest seller (expect the equivalent of "sedan")?

There are people whose actual jobs are to answer questions for the customer, to help them make that decision because they can't be bothered to do the research themselves, and probably, if you're feeling cynical, to upsell them on something they don't need. Those very same sales reps are not looking down their nose at walk-ins, telling them "look, if you don't know the difference between a Ryzen 1700X and a Core i5-7600k, I'm not going to sit here and explain it to you. Go away and come back after you've read the internet." The staff at my local Micro Center will sometimes KEEP talking well after they've helped the customer. Apple takes this a step further than most by offering people "classes" on how to use whatever product they've bought. You can call Apple and ask for help over the phone or walk into a store and ask in person whenever you want.

These industries do not treat the customer like they are unwanted and dumb. They want customers, they want to grow their brands and make more money, and if they can make people feel good while they do it, they will be more successful.

There is no Linux equivalent of this.

There is not an Ubuntu Store at the local mall filled with a bunch of geniuses in funny penguin shirts willing to sell you System76 laptops, or SteamOS machines, or a pre-selected variety of equipment from other vendors known to be fully compatible without weird fan control issues or command line video card driver installs or sound card hiccups or wifi that doesn't work unless you connect to the internet which you can't do because your laptop doesn't have an ethernet port, or explain why Chrome and Chromium are two different things, to explain how Libre Office is "compatible" with Microsoft Office or why 0AD has been in development for ninety years and is still in Alpha and then explain what "in Alpha" means, or even just show a customer how to install Ubuntu on an old PC they have lying around.

Linux communities treat new users terribly. Documentation doesn't explain, it just gives commands, or is full of text that only the developers will be able to figure out. Discussions about new features turn into flaming rows between developers and the feuds lead to whole projects being dropped. The guy who controls the kernel throws a tantrum and flips off NVIDIA instead of working with them to try and improve their open-source support. The bad behavior exists at the top, so there isn't really a good example for everyone to follow, and that extends all the way down to users who are "helpful" by telling newcomers to just copy-paste some terminal commands and if it doesn't work they should go back to Windows.

So your car example does a good job of illustrating my point - I guess what Linux distros need are sales guys willing to "sell" a free product and get nothing in return other than the satisfaction of knowing they helped someone learn a new thing. But Linux user communities are not those sales guys, and so desktop Linux will continue to be a niche thing.
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whm1974
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:02 pm

deruberhanyok wrote:
There is no Linux equivalent of this.

There is not an Ubuntu Store at the local mall filled with a bunch of geniuses in funny penguin shirts willing to sell you System76 laptops, or SteamOS machines, or a pre-selected variety of equipment from other vendors known to be fully compatible without weird fan control issues or command line video card driver installs or sound card hiccups or wifi that doesn't work unless you connect to the internet which you can't do because your laptop doesn't have an ethernet port, or explain why Chrome and Chromium are two different things, to explain how Libre Office is "compatible" with Microsoft Office or why 0AD has been in development for ninety years and is still in Alpha and then explain what "in Alpha" means, or even just show a customer how to install Ubuntu on an old PC they have lying around.

Linux communities treat new users terribly. Documentation doesn't explain, it just gives commands, or is full of text that only the developers will be able to figure out. Discussions about new features turn into flaming rows between developers and the feuds lead to whole projects being dropped. The guy who controls the kernel throws a tantrum and flips off NVIDIA instead of working with them to try and improve their open-source support. The bad behavior exists at the top, so there isn't really a good example for everyone to follow, and that extends all the way down to users who are "helpful" by telling newcomers to just copy-paste some terminal commands and if it doesn't work they should go back to Windows.

So your car example does a good job of illustrating my point - I guess what Linux distros need are sales guys willing to "sell" a free product and get nothing in return other than the satisfaction of knowing they helped someone learn a new thing. But Linux user communities are not those sales guys, and so desktop Linux will continue to be a niche thing.

Well System76 does do some of this stuff. And I for one have installed and setup Linux boxes for people before, along with showing them websites with more info on how to use Linux. I also continued to work with them. And yes I think we Linux users could be more friendly to noobs, I try to be since I was a noob once.
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:47 pm

Flame bait question.
Now if you ask "Is Linux easier to use than it use to be, yes. Anybody that ever dealt with it in the early days will, I think, agree. Just as a lot of things in this world have gotten easier to deal with as they develop.
The fun part is that I don't think Linux cares whether it becomes competitive with Anyone as a desktop system. It's offered for free to those that want to use it. By those that like to use it. And while there was some "Elitism" that pervaded the community in the past, I believe that's continuing to die out. I observe a lot of linux forums and just don't find the bad experience that some claim. Quite the contrary usually, but if a certain problem requires a certain solution, what else can you tell folks. And solutions for dealing with a complicated subject are rarely simple.
And, Yes Torvalds has a flash temper. Always has. However, He's also the first to recognize good contributions and give credit, usually his outbursts result from the way things work in kernel development. Do they have personality problems there? Sure, show me a development team that doesn't. But the plain fact is Linux was created and built by thousands of people who just enjoyed doing it and offering the result to the world.
Do we need people to sell Linux, Lord NO, not if they're going to "sell" it the way most things are sold nowadays. If you like Linux and are willing to put in the time and effort to learn how to use it, go for it, If not, then stay with what is designed for the disinterested.
As for it being impossible to find info on how to deal with it, Hogwash, how do you think the folks that advise in the forums and build the distro's learned it, they weren't born knowing it either........
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:15 pm

whm1974 wrote:
Well System76 does do some of this stuff. And I for one have installed and setup Linux boxes for people before, along with showing them websites with more info on how to use Linux. I also continued to work with them. And yes I think we Linux users could be more friendly to noobs, I try to be since I was a noob once.

You're just a filthy Linux peasant, graduate to using a real OS like Unix or AIX.

/cross thread insult


Seriously - Linux is *not* ready for general consumption. I run massive server farms / clusters every single day and there's no way in hell I'd be pushing regular users over to Linux unless I was there to babysit them every step of the way *and* visit occasionally to update things and fix the inevitable **** that pops up when updating.

Based on what you've posted so far, you still are one of the n00bs. I don't mean that in a condescending way at all, nor do I mean to imply that I am also not a n00b. Everyone is a Linux n00b, because no matter how much you know, no matter how much you've experienced, you will find a new bug that will cause you pain to no end that you have no goddamn idea how to fix. I'm saying that with the background that I develop and deploy peta-scale machines with custom software daily. Linux just isn't simple, and it's got a long damn way to go before it ever will be close.
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:25 pm

That's mostly what makes me stick with Ubuntu LTS for my distro of choice. Sure I could stray into the weeds and build something which might be more fun, but then I'd probably get my ass kicked in the process. Sometimes I still get my ass kicked, and there was a point not too long ago where getting my ass kicked was nearly a daily activity because of one random dead thing or another that I had to figure out how to bring back to life. Now at least I can keep the ass kicking to a minimum by staying a little closer to the beaten path. :P
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:30 pm

The notion that the average computer user is completely baffled by the command line but is capable of troubleshooting problems on Windows strikes me as ridiculous. Most people have one or two people they know that are good with computers and call them whenever they have any problems (or they take the system to a repair shop); they don't troubleshoot anything themselves.

For the vast majority of users, the operating system is completely irrelevant. They don't care about software freedom, they don't care about telemetry, and if you asked them what OS they use they'd tell you, "the one that came with the computer." As long as the hardware they use is supported, and Pandora, Youtube, Netflix and Gmail work in their browser, and they have a word processor that opens docx, they'll never even notice a difference.

There are Linux User Groups all over the world. My (limited) experience with such groups indicates that they're very open to helping new users or people interested in trying Linux out. Just because there's no store you can go into to have someone sell you a Linux computer doesn't mean that no one is willing to help new users.

If you roll up to a motorcycle club and try to get them to fix your bike they'll tell you to screw off and find a repairman. If you go to any hobbyist group with no interest in the hobby and are just looking for free advice/services, you aren't going to feel very welcome. If you think that Linux will never take off (on the desktop) because it doesn't have the corporate support structure that Windows and MacOS have, that's a fair opinion, but the problem isn't with the Linux hobbyist community.
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:52 pm

way2strong wrote:
If you think that Linux will never take off (on the desktop) because it doesn't have the corporate support structure that Windows and MacOS have, that's a fair opinion, but the problem isn't with the Linux hobbyist community.


I think that there are a select few Linux...enthusiasts...that drive many away from even thinking about changing over. Beyond that, how many people even search out an alternative to Windows?

I only run Windows because I game but I don't know a single person (outside of work) that runs anything but Windows or OSX.
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:46 am

whm1974 wrote:
OK with all the crap Microsoft has been doing with Windows 10 like the forced updates, spyware, and now adware in File Explorer, I'm being to wonder has Linux become far easier to use? I mean Linux users can update when they choose to, they are also able to use their computers while updating, don't have to deal with malware, or forced to look at ads in the OS. On top of this, Linux doesn't get in our way when we are using our systems.

I thought Windows 8 was bad enough with it's Metro interface Microsoft tried to force on everyone, but at least there is a solid OS there. Will Windows users get tired of MS's crap and begin to switch over to Linux? It looks like to me that Microsoft has shot themselves in both feet this time. They are their worst enemy.

So what do my fellow Linux users think?


Being a Linux user since 1996, and having used it in both personal and work (enterprise & service provider environments), I think the answer is both "yes" and "no".

Some distributions make their installers quite easy to use while others make you wish Linux never existed. Some distributions create windowed interfaces that are clean & simple & easy to use while others can drive you crazy. Some distributions attempt to keep up with the cutting edge of Linux kernel development ("rolling releases") while others appear to languish in the past. Ultimately it all comes down to what you want out of your Linux implementation.

My advice:
- Setup a box just to try out different Linux distributions. Expect to find differences between distributions.
- Take your time. Experiment with the OS and the UI.
- Don't expect the absolute latest and greatest hardware to be supported. Expect to be surprised by good Linux performance from "less than bleeding edge" hardware.
- Don't do anything on this "test" box that you want to keep.
- Expect a learning curve. Do not let your Windows experience set your Linux expections as each OS will do some things differently.
- Think of learning Linux like learning a second language.

To this day, I keep at least 1 box around for testing out stuff.
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:21 am

'Tis why Linux lives on the home box as a VM.
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synthtel2
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:11 am

Yes, *if* you're one of two certain types of user, *and* even in that case the gains are often negated because everyone already knows Windows and its weirdness but Linux's weirdness is foreign.

just brew it! wrote:
The problem isn't that there aren't any good distros. The problem (for gaming) is the sorry state of GPU drivers. Sure, they can strong-arm game devs, because they have leverage there. But how, exactly, do you propose that they get the X.Org people and the GPU vendors to fix the driver situation?

I think that problem is mostly still with distros (other than AMD-specific weirdness). I've had precisely one graphics driver issue I can recall in four-ish years of regular Linux gaming, and that one was Arch's fault (they pushed a feature too early and a workaround was required). Otherwise, Nvidia proprietary + Arch really seems to Just Work. I keep hearing that graphics drivers are still an issue, and can't help but think that other distros are doing it wrong. Of course, Arch isn't beginner-friendly, and we're right back to the issue where every distro seems to have at least one critical flaw.

I still have hope, because it seems like for every show-stopper there's a distro that has gotten it right and made it a non-issue (and the fixes aren't inherently incompatible). I think if we could take all the best points from both Arch and Mint, we'd have something starting to look ready for prime time. Arch has got all the technical finesse so the behind-the-scenes stuff Just Works, and Mint has the UX finesse to bridge the gap so the user doesn't need to know about the behind-the-scenes stuff. Antergos and Manjaro look like they're headed in the right direction, Antergos more so because Manjaro repeats some of Mint's technical mistakes. Neither are anywhere near Mint's UX level yet (Manjaro appears to be better on that front), and Arch is a touch more aggressive about updates than would be ideal for that kind of project.

Doing their best to destroy that hope are Gnome and libinput, but I've ranted about that already.

Linux gaming has occasional issues, but in my extensive experience they're much less regular than people give them credit for. I should start keeping a log of my experiences with it or something.
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:41 am

Some Linux distributions are getting better and easier to use compared to older versions, but even compared to Windows 10, they are still more difficult and less intuitive. That said, they do allow the sort of control over the OS that Microsoft used to have but no longer promotes and if that is the main thing about an OS that you care about and not say, easy to find fixes for certain problems or software/game support then Linux is better and has been better for a couple of years. If all you need the OS for is to browse the internet and do some work using software that has support, you can't beat Linux, not only because it's free but it maintains that philosophy of letting the user do what it wants with it and there is no company gimping control or restricting access.
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Disclaimer: All answers and suggestions are provided by an enthusiastic amateur and are therefore without warranty either explicit or implicit. Basically you use my suggestions at your own risk.
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:22 am

whm1974 wrote:
May I recommend a modern distro with up to date packages?

He says he tried Debian Testing, which is reasonably modern. It's basically a pre-release of what eventually becomes the next Debian Stable.

whm1974 wrote:
I'm using Manjaro with no problems what so ever playing games.

You're just going to trade one set of problems (outdated packages) for another (early adopter syndrome) by going to a rolling release distro. Going to an obscure distro generally also means you're more likely to be the first person to hit any new bugs.
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:47 am

just brew it! wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
I'm using Manjaro with no problems what so ever playing games.

You're just going to trade one set of problems (outdated packages) for another (early adopter syndrome) by going to a rolling release distro. Going to an obscure distro generally also means you're more likely to be the first person to hit any new bugs.

I haven't gotten hit by very many bugs since using Manjaro. Far less then back when I was using Xubuntu. And besides, with Manjaro I don't have to deal with upgrading any PPAs I have installed every time I upgrade to the newest version of the distro.
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:00 am

I'd say that the most popular distribution is much easier to use than Windows; I've never used the command line at all on Android.
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:20 am

NTMBK wrote:
I'd say that the most popular distribution is much easier to use than Windows; I've never used the command line at all on Android.

Is it even possible to use the CLI in Android?
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:32 am

whm1974 wrote:
I haven't gotten hit by very many bugs since using Manjaro. Far less then back when I was using Xubuntu. And besides, with Manjaro I don't have to deal with upgrading any PPAs I have installed every time I upgrade to the newest version of the distro.

...because updating PPAs is so hard? :roll:

As of Ubuntu 14.04 LTS I found that I didn't use the PPAs nearly as much anyway. Combination of most of the stuff I need being up-to-date enough in the official repos, and many of the PPAs not being very well maintained anyway.

On those (fortunately becoming much rarer) occasions where a package in the official repo really pisses me off I grab the latest source from the upstream maintainer and build it myself. Yes, most people won't do this. But at least you have the option. And dodgy packages will be a hazard with any distro; it's just a question of whether you're more pissed off by packages that are a year or two out-of-date, or stuff that's broken because it's half-baked and insufficiently tested.
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whm1974
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:40 am

just brew it! wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
I haven't gotten hit by very many bugs since using Manjaro. Far less then back when I was using Xubuntu. And besides, with Manjaro I don't have to deal with upgrading any PPAs I have installed every time I upgrade to the newest version of the distro.

...because updating PPAs is so hard? :roll:

As of Ubuntu 14.04 LTS I found that I didn't use the PPAs nearly as much anyway. Combination of most of the stuff I need being up-to-date enough in the official repos, and many of the PPAs not being very well maintained anyway.

On those (fortunately becoming much rarer) occasions where a package in the official repo really pisses me off I grab the latest source from the upstream maintainer and build it myself. Yes, most people won't do this. But at least you have the option. And dodgy packages will be a hazard with any distro; it's just a question of whether you're more pissed off by packages that are a year or two out-of-date, or stuff that's broken because it's half-baked and insufficiently tested.

Well before Netfix and Amazon Prime switched over to HTML5 for their videos, I had to deal with installing a few PPAs to have pipelight installed so I could use these services in Linux. PITA to setup when I was still using Mint and Xubuntu. Of course now that everything just works with Chrome now days this stuff isn't needed anymore.

Basically I switched over to Manjaro due to being easier to keep updated and fewer bugs then Xubuntu.
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:00 pm

seems like there is a lot of consensus around the Linux zealotry thing. I disagree with it. I don't think it exists anymore. I've come to think that GNU/Linux/UNIX ecosystem zealots are mainly those who have recently come to *nix. They aren't dramatically involved with it, their technical proficiency isn't very deep. Shouldn't really count these people. Acknowledge that they're there, sure. They aren't indicative of anything about Linux itself, however. I disagree that the majority of Linux users are resentful of newcomers or that there is this prevailing culture to be so.

For me there are two main problems with Linux adoption. Consumer software developers and hardware designers do not target it. There are too many distributions.
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:06 pm

I'll back whm1974 up on Arch (presumably also Manjaro) not being buggy. People who haven't seriously used it tend to assume it's bleeding edge enough that it's going to cut you. I know what that's like from back when I used Fedora, and Arch mostly doesn't have that problem. In four-ish years, I've only twice thought that Arch was moving too fast - when they caused that graphics driver bug I mentioned before, and when they made libinput the default.

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