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sophisticles
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:05 pm

christos_thski wrote:
Linux needs a better installation process. Sure, there are "download and play" repositories in various distros, but insofar as the non technical user is lost trying something as simple as installing an app outside of those repos, linux will not be perceived as more user friendly than windows. Let's not even mention drivers. Strides have been made, but it's still not near the user friendliness of windows.


Um, what?!? What distro are you trying to install? Linux distros have far superior install processes to Windows, not even close. Distros like Manjaro, Ubuntu variants and any other that has a live-usb version (which is most distros), allow you to be running a live OS while installing the OS on the hard drive, meaning you can always go online and get help DURING the install, try that with Windows sans a separate pc. And OpenSuse's installer has so much thorough documentation it's not even funny.

If anything makes installing Linux "difficult" it's that many distros offer lots of initial configuration options for a user, which may put off someone that not technical, but once you get used to the ability to customize your setup anyway you want, you will realize how pathetic Windows actually is.
 
whm1974
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:06 pm

I used Windows 10 a bit when I looking at one of my friends laptop. Talk about awkward to use.
 
Vhalidictes
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:08 pm

Linux *was* easier to install than Windows. Now that Win10 Anniversary is out, you don't need to do or know anything to install Windows.

Except of course when it fails to install partway through and gives no errors. (That can happen with modern Linux installations too, but only if you're installing to a FakeRAID.)
 
christos_thski
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:11 pm

sophisticles wrote:
christos_thski wrote:
Linux needs a better installation process. Sure, there are "download and play" repositories in various distros, but insofar as the non technical user is lost trying something as simple as installing an app outside of those repos, linux will not be perceived as more user friendly than windows. Let's not even mention drivers. Strides have been made, but it's still not near the user friendliness of windows.


Um, what?!? What distro are you trying to install? Linux distros have far superior install processes to Windows, not even close. Distros like Manjaro, Ubuntu variants and any other that has a live-usb version (which is most distros), allow you to be running a live OS while installing the OS on the hard drive, meaning you can always go online and get help DURING the install, try that with Windows sans a separate pc. And OpenSuse's installer has so much thorough documentation it's not even funny.

If anything makes installing Linux "difficult" it's that many distros offer lots of initial configuration options for a user, which may put off someone that not technical, but once you get used to the ability to customize your setup anyway you want, you will realize how pathetic Windows actually is.


I wasn't clear, my fault , I was referring to application installation not operating system installation. Most non technical users are confused with app install on linux.
 
Vhalidictes
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:16 pm

christos_thski wrote:
I wasn't clear, my fault , I was referring to application installation not operating system installation. Most non technical users are confused with app install on linux.


It's getting better. I can't find the link right now, but IIRC Ubuntu is starting to support Flatpak (sorry, Snappy), which makes dependencies a thing of the past as long as you have enough disk space.
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:19 pm

sophisticles wrote:
2) Re: GPU Drivers - I Honestly do not know what people are going on about; installing gpu drivers is "difficult" with Linux? They are unstable? Really? What distros are you guys using?

Windows was not necessarily easier to install drivers on, hardware makers actively made drivers for various Windows versions and then packaged them in an exe/msi and included them with hardware that they sold, so in that sense, yes, it was more convenient, easier if you will. BUT, I can't be the only one that has had a Windows install get screwed by a bad driver install, in fact if you will recall there were so many problems with gpu drivers causing BSOD's that MS changed the driver model with Vista so that a bad gpu driver could no longer hurt the whole system.

You want to compare the worst of Windows ten years ago to the best that LInux offers now? Wut?

Moving forward to the present, then yes Linux has gotten better about this compared to itself or Windows ten years ago (although even with optimal hardware conditions you may still end up working briefly with CLI and apt-get of something doesn't turn out quite right) but by comparison Windows 10 will find your hardware, use the best display resolution it can support with locally available drivers, and then go download and install the most current WDM driver for you while you use the computer for other business.
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Vhalidictes
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:25 pm

That's a good point, Ludi - my knowledge of current/recent Linux video drivers is somewhat dated. That said, around 2013 or so, getting Cinnamon to work... at all... with either of my AMD 4870 or 6850 was an exercise in going mad.

FGLRX driver?
AMD proprietary driver?
Whatever-installs-with-the-distro-by-default?

You can install whatever you like, Mint wouldn't enter the GUI. If I was really lucky it wouldn't boot at all.

I *did* end up getting Ubuntu to work fine. Well, for a value of fine that contains "worse UI than anything MS has ever done": Unity. Which is especially fun to use because unlike the newer Windows start bar, I didn't even know the names of the apps I was supposed to search for.
Last edited by Vhalidictes on Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Glorious
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:26 pm

sophisticles wrote:
1) I am really shocked to see someone, who shall remain nameless, be pedantic and point out that "Linux" technically only refers to the kernel and not a complete OS. While it's true that "Linux" only literally refers to the kernel that Linus wrote, in the decades that have followed the term has come to apply to any open source OS that uses said kernel.


No one says that Samsung's very popular Galaxy phone runs linux.

And, from the user perspective, the kernel is the least meaningful portion of the system. For instance, if a normal user got familiar with using the xfce DE with firefox and libreoffice, when would it be apparent to them that they're using the linux kernel versus freebsd's?

sophisticles wrote:
2) Re: GPU Drivers - I Honestly do not know what people are going on about; installing gpu drivers is "difficult" with Linux? They are unstable? Really? What distros are you guys using?


Reality?

sophisticles wrote:
Windows was not necessarily easier to install drivers on, hardware makers actively made drivers for various Windows versions and then packaged them in an exe/msi and included them with hardware that they sold, so in that sense, yes, it was more convenient, easier if you will. BUT, I can't be the only one that has had a Windows install get screwed by a bad driver install, in fact if you will recall there were so many problems with gpu drivers causing BSOD's that MS changed the driver model with Vista so that a bad gpu driver could no longer hurt the whole system.


I haven't used a packaged driver for video card in probably twenty years now. Maybe never. Possibly when I got my first computer as a teenager.

This is simply not the situation we're referring to. You're completely off the mark.

GPU reset is nice, but I haven't had one that wasn't clearly related to overheating in many years.

Meanwhile, two years ago, my intel-based chromebook had a major GPU hang bug. https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83677

Intel is a good vendor.

sophisticles wrote:
Modern day Linux distro nowadays, will automatically install the latest drivers, including gpu drivers, both Manjaro's and Ubuntu's driver managers will install open source and proprietary drivers for both AMD and Nvidia hardware, even GhostBSD installs Nvidia proprietary drivers automatically. It even allow the use of Nvidia's NVENC.


AMD doesn't even want you using fglrx anymore. It's been deprecated by Ubuntu accordingly, so you're bluntly wrong on this one.

Nvidia's prop driver works relatively (a one eyed man in the kingdom of the blind), but it's certainly not perfect and you're limited to that vendor and tainted kernel.

sophisticles wrote:
As for what's easier to configure, I find Manjaro, OpenSuse, and Ubuntu variants much easier to configure than Windows, Windows 8/8.1 and Windows 10 in particular I find to me a hot mess.


So 3-7 different configurations are "easier to configure" than just one? Windows 10 is Windows 10. Ubuntu native, kubuntu, xubuntu, lubuntu, etc... are all entirely different GUIs.

All of them are easier? Across the board? Even though you need to know all of them?

sophisticles wrote:
I then bought her a cheap Dell with a quad core Pentium and Win10 and she complained about Win10 for days, demanding that I install "Windows" again; eventually she understood that Win10 was the latest Windows version and that in order for me to install Win7 on that system, I would need to buy a copy of Win7 for $150, find drivers for that system and that the Dell warranty would now be void.


Ah, so she's already particular about windows 7 versus windows 10, she's going to be totally OK with any variant of linux as an alternative?

Really?

sophisticles wrote:
For me, even if Windows 10 didn't have all those telemetry/spying issues and the new issues with ads being displayed within the OS, I still wouldn't use it, it's garbage, I find it clunky, weird, odd to configure, not to mention very limiting.


Garbage? I mean, do you just fiddle with UI settings all day? What do you use your computer for?

sophisticles wrote:
Linux desktops have spoiled me with how customizable they are


This does not make it "easier to use", quite the opposite. I can use anyone's windows 10 system. I'm generally scared to touch someone else's linux DE, because people configure them in insanely personal and potentially dangerous ways:

https://xkcd.com/1172/

^ That's, like, not really a joke.

sophisticles wrote:
the lack of need to go hunting for a driver cd to get my hardware working


May I introduce you to the internet, this wonderful thing you're currently posting on?

sophisticles wrote:
the ability to easily create a ram drive and put the swap on said ram drive (btw, try this optimization, it works nicely)


wut

I mean, set swappiness to zero...

I can't even
 
Redocbew
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:31 pm

That didn't take long..... :lol:

Vhalidictes wrote:
That's a good point, Ludi - my knowledge of current/recent Linux video drivers is somewhat dated. That said, around 2013 or so, getting Cinnamon to work... at all... with either of my AMD 4870 or 6850 was an exercise in going mad.

FGLRX driver?
AMD proprietary driver?
Whatever-installs-with-the-distro-by-default?

You can install whatever you like, Mint wouldn't enter the GUI. If I was really lucky it wouldn't boot at all.


When I setup this machine I had a minor annoyance around disabling secure boot, but otherwise the GPU drivers installed fine, and I felt fortunate to have that happen. :P

Computers are complicated. Things break, and not everything is going to be perfect. Some amount of that should be expected regardless of the system in question. The deal with GPU drivers on Linux gets special attention because it's worse than that.
Do not meddle in the affairs of archers, for they are subtle and you won't hear them coming.
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:34 pm

sophisticles wrote:
Um, what?!? What distro are you trying to install? Linux distros have far superior install processes to Windows, not even close.


Normals never install Windows.

sophisticles wrote:
Distros like Manjaro, Ubuntu variants and any other that has a live-usb version (which is most distros), allow you to be running a live OS while installing the OS on the hard drive, meaning you can always go online and get help DURING the install, try that with Windows sans a separate pc. And OpenSuse's installer has so much thorough documentation it's not even funny.


See above. Install Windows?

Oh, have you heard of smartphones? You know, those little ubiquitous things that normals do most of their internet browsing on these days? The ones that can still work with wifi after you get a new one every two years?

The ones the internet still works on even if your wifi/ethernet doesn't?

sophisticles wrote:
you will realize how pathetic Windows actually is.


I use operating systems to run programs, not brag incoherently on the internet.

Thus, despite actually using a desktop linux system to post this right now, I've never had this realization.

Huh.
 
sophisticles
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:42 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
sophisticles wrote:
For me, even if Windows 10 didn't have all those telemetry/spying issues and the new issues with ads being displayed within the OS, I still wouldn't use it, it's garbage, I find it clunky, weird, odd to configure, not to mention very limiting. Linux desktops have spoiled me with how customizable they are, the lack of need to go hunting for a driver cd to get my hardware working, the ability to easily create a ram drive and put the swap on said ram drive (btw, try this optimization, it works nicely) and the fact that it's legally free, I won't go back to Windows on my personal systems ever again.


Your post is interesting because it doesn't match my experience at all.

1) "lack of need to go hunting for a driver CD" You don't use a modern video card, I take it. This is true (for the most part) for network cards, and only network cards, though.
2) Windows has a number of freeware RAM drive creators, I've used them before.
3) Windows 10, is, for the most part, legally free. Unless you don't have a Win7, Win8, or Win8.1 license lying around somewhere. They're quite common.
4) What does "it's garbage" mean, exactly?
5) What does "limiting" mean, exactly?

Once upon a time I saw a cool Linux "really heavy desktop UI" screenshot and decided that would be cool to replicate. I gave up because I was unable to find most of the options, or even what some of them were. I'm sure there's a way to make a video clip into a desktop background, but I wasn't able to find it back then. Tracking down various fonts was a joy, but at least it was possible to get most of them installed with some searching.


1) I don't have a modern video card? I specifically mention the ability to use NVENC right out of the box, that should be a clue if you know about hardware. I have a R7 265, a GTX960 and I just upgraded to a GTX1050, that I'm currently running; Ubuntu and variants configured all 3 with the open source driver and gave me the option to easily choose the proprietary driver; Manjaro did the same thing up until the latest release where it now automatically choose the proprietary driver for the GTX1050, OpenSuse Leap configures all three cards with the open source driver and with about 2 minutes of work in Yast adding the proper repository using the proprietary driver was just a reboot away (in fact, AMD is a Platinum supporter of OpenSuse, they contribute tons of driver code to them).

3) How exactly is Windows 10 "legally free"? Show me the link, from MS, where I can download an iso and use it with as many computers as I like. Yes, MS, much like a drug pusher, "gave Win 10 away for free" IF you had a current Win7/8/8.1 license but that also invalidates the license for use on the older Windows version. At some point you had to buy that license, even if you bought a system from a vendor, the cost of the license was rolled up in the purchase price, MS never gave you anything for free, they don't get to be worth 50 Billion dollars by giving stuff away for free, there was a hidden price, in the form of data collection, which the make money from.

2) Windows ram drive creators, at least the free ones, are garbage, they are limited to very small file sizes and they require you to install third party software, on Linux it's a matter of adding a couple of lines to a config file. Not to mention on Windows I don't think you can put the swap file on it, though I could be wrong.

5) "Limiting" means in terms of configuration, the ability to set it up just the way I want, with Linux let's assume I start with Ubuntu Mate, I can theme it to my hearts content, fonts are displayed much better (way more choices of types and size), I can swap in a real time kernel if I want to, I can even switch to a Linux Kernel fork if I want to, I can swap out desktops if I get bored so it's almost like using a new computer, I can custom compile optimized version of the software i use, once you really get into using Linux you realize just how much freedom you give up using Windows.

4) "Garbage" refers to the fact that a fresh install of Windows will run nice and fast but it's basic design lends to "Windows Rot", where eventually it slows down and needs a reinstall. This is due to a combination of a file system that's designed to fragment, a configuration setting setup designed to obfuscate many settings so as to aid in DRM; obviously I'm talking about the registry, as the tree gets bigger it takes longer and longer to transverse and this leads to increased latency. "Garbage" also refers to the telemetry/spying, ads in the OS, pathetic ram usage and the need to have one license per pc.

Listen, if you guys want to use it, free country, knock yourselves out, I use it at work because I don't have a choice, but I won't sully my hardware with it.
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:49 pm

There's unfortunately a lot of software out there which is truly awful, and some of us here(myself included) have had the privilege of maintaining some of it. There were times where I wish I had the opportunity to consider the architecture and UI involved instead of just trying to keep the bloody thing up and running. They've both got their own warts for sure, but neither Windows nor Linux are in that category.
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sophisticles
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:02 pm

Glorious wrote:
sophisticles wrote:
the ability to easily create a ram drive and put the swap on said ram drive (btw, try this optimization, it works nicely)


wut

I mean, set swappiness to zero...

I can't even


If you meant to say "I can't even think cohesively", then I'm glad you're admitting your problem and hope you get the help you so desperately need. Do you know what "swappiness=0" actually does? It causes the system to use up all the available ram before hitting the swap file. I am not 100% convinced that this is a good thing, just like I'm not convinced that it's best to setup a system without a swap file/partition at all. I've tried both these things and there are times I feel that they hurt performance, not helped, especially with editing 4k video.

Try it yourself, if you are so inclined, I don't know how much ram you have or if you have a spare system running Ubuntu/variant, but set swappiness=0 and really use the system as you normally would and then setup a ram drive equal to half your ram and put the swap file on there and run the same test. I'm confident that you will notice a definite snappiness to the second version.
 
synthtel2
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:09 pm

Sophisticles, I hope you're actually talking about using zram? Putting swap on a compressed ramdisk via zram is great, but what you're talking about makes absolutely no difference whatsoever (unless there's a bug somewhere, or I suppose it might make things OOM with more spectacle than they otherwise would). In addition, swappiness had a behavior change lately - setting it to zero now disables swap entirely. What you're describing is therefore doubly pointless.

Everyone talks about graphics driver breakage this, graphics driver breakage that. What, more specifically, actually breaks these days (other than AMD proprietary stuff)? (I don't know because Arch + Nvidia doesn't seem to have any such issue, and when I'm dealing with some other distro it's most often for a machine with Intel graphics.) I don't doubt that it's still as messy as people say, I'm just curious how non-Arch distros are managing to make it that much of a mess.
 
Ikepuska
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:10 pm

Not to drag this Windows Graphics Card driver argument any further into the mud, but I do want to point out a couple of things.

Win10 does contain some update bugs that drive me nuts with regard to drivers. I ended up with Win10, despite going all gpedit and telling it to stop updating graphics drivers, reverting to a version of my gfx card drivers that had a bug on my particular card that was maddening and made the system unstable. This was post AE.

I've also had to resort to gpedit and reghacking a great deal more than in the past to get win10 to behave in ways that I wanted, although that wouldn't have worked at all with 10Home. I would absolutely NOT argue that 10 is a better OS than 7. It's newer and has a better security model, which is why I use it, but there is definitely still a bit of half-baked going on with it. I mean I shouldn't have to go through 2 different settings areas (settings and control panel) and then resort to gpedit just to find the setting that prevents windows update from updating my drivers.

AE also made a number of changes that I found to be regressions. Having said that, I am most certainly NOT a typical user, and if I weren't a gamer I would be getting a linux box or chromeOS and just use a VM for my windows needs.
I have to say that if it weren't for my power user tendencies that find the OSX driver model enraging, I would actually enjoy going back to it. I has a 2009 cheesegrater that I quite enjoyed, but as a gamer, and user PCIE cards OSX is..... less than optimal.
 
sophisticles
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:44 pm

synthtel2 wrote:
Sophisticles, I hope you're actually talking about using zram? Putting swap on a compressed ramdisk via zram is great, but what you're talking about makes absolutely no difference whatsoever (unless there's a bug somewhere, or I suppose it might make things OOM with more spectacle than they otherwise would). In addition, swappiness had a behavior change lately - setting it to zero now disables swap entirely. What you're describing is therefore doubly pointless.


I'm talking about this:

http://ubuntuguide.net/ubuntu-using-ram ... t-response

Give it a shot, I set it to 8GB, I noticed a difference right away.
 
deruberhanyok
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:14 pm

sophisticles wrote:
I am really shocked to see someone, who shall remain nameless, be pedantic and point out that "Linux" technically only refers to the kernel and not a complete OS. While it's true that "Linux" only literally refers to the kernel that Linus wrote, in the decades that have followed the term has come to apply to any open source OS that uses said kernel.


Not sure if that was directed at me or someone else (I don't recall bringing up the kernel, but I can see how my statements could possibly be interpreted that way), but if it was, you missed my point by a mile.

Your anecdote about your mom asking you to put "Windows" back onto the PC when it was already running Windows is a great example of the "average user" and the level of knowledge most people have about operating systems. Imagine that confusion multiplied by 40 or so distros with 8 different UIs. Which is why my point is: "Linux" is not an operating system. There are plenty of operating systems are based on the Linux architecture - kernel, display server, etc, etc - but if an average user doesn't understand the differences between Windows 7 and Windows 10, how do you expect them to know that there's 40 different types of Linux but stuff that works on one might not work on another?

Are you going to sit there and explain the difference between yum, apt-get, zypper, .rpms and .debs, snappy, and whatever else, just so someone understands that when they want to install software on their Linux they need to know what kind of install package they need? Because "in windows I just download this and double click on it to install".

(also, it's funny, because the windows 10 user interface is basically the windows 7 user interface, all prettied up with some animations and 3D rendering. but then, way back in the day, I had a user insist she didn't know how to use Office 97 because she was only trained on Office 95, despite them having the exact same user interfaces. For some people it just takes a change in the name for them to lose all sense.)

sophisticles wrote:
Um, what?!? What distro are you trying to install? Linux distros have far superior install processes to Windows, not even close. Distros like Manjaro, Ubuntu variants and any other that has a live-usb version (which is most distros), allow you to be running a live OS while installing the OS on the hard drive, meaning you can always go online and get help DURING the install, try that with Windows sans a separate pc. And OpenSuse's installer has so much thorough documentation it's not even funny.

If anything makes installing Linux "difficult" it's that many distros offer lots of initial configuration options for a user, which may put off someone that not technical, but once you get used to the ability to customize your setup anyway you want, you will realize how pathetic Windows actually is.


So, your "totally unhelpful and not contributing to the conversation" attitude aside, I guess you haven't installed Windows 10 on a PC before. The process goes like this:

1) insert install media
2) boot PC to install media
3) click next a few times
4) reboot into the "welcome" screen
5) answer a few questions about settings
6) create a user or enter your microsoft login

And you're done.

A "far superior" install process shouldn't require you to have reams of documentation. It shouldn't need to be an option that you can go online to troubleshoot the install while you are installing. Once you've gotten to that point you've already failed at creating an easy-to-use installer.

That said, the Ubuntu install process is... basically the exact same. So I would make the argument that they're both easy to install. More to the point, though: how many "average users" ever install Windows on their PC in the first place?

whm1974 wrote:
I used Windows 10 a bit when I looking at one of my friends laptop. Talk about awkward to use.


Did you use it? What did you find awkward? The ability to search for everything on your system after pressing the super key, like you can in most of the modern linux UIs? The way it obscures a lot of highly detailed settings away from the user, unless you are specifically looking for it, like most of the modern linux UIs? Was it the lack of the Windows 95-style menus-within-menus start menu (that so many Linux UI designers just can't let go, despite it being based on a design that has its roots in Windows 3.1), like most of the modern linux UIs? Or was it the way that the search function returns useful data even if you're not searching for a specific program, like most of the modern linux UIs? Maybe it was automatic installation of drivers for the hardware installed in the PC, to include graphics drivers and network printers, like most of the modern linux distros? Perhaps the native hidpi support that works (which, let's face it, is not so good on the Linux)?

This sort of statement is really bizarre. If Windows 10 is awkward to use, then any modern operating system must be awkward to use. The same design principles at work for the Windows UI are being used for the UI in (some) modern desktop environments. This is a huge step up from UI design prior to roughly 10 years ago, when it was basically just whatever a bunch of developers thought worked (hence menus-with-more-submenus-with-more-submenus).

sophisticles wrote:
"Limiting" means in terms of configuration, the ability to set it up just the way I want, with Linux let's assume I start with Ubuntu Mate, I can theme it to my hearts content, fonts are displayed much better (way more choices of types and size), I can swap in a real time kernel if I want to, I can even switch to a Linux Kernel fork if I want to, I can swap out desktops if I get bored so it's almost like using a new computer, I can custom compile optimized version of the software i use, once you really get into using Linux you realize just how much freedom you give up using Windows.


What you call "limiting" the rest of the world calls "I don't care I just want to look at pictures of my grandkids on the facebook". You're really missing the whole "easier to use" part of this conversation.

This is that same insular self-perpetuating thing I was talking about earlier. You get so deep down into the weeds of whatever Linux you like that you forget that not everyone actually knows what you're on about. We all know the strengths of Linux. What some of you guys seem to forget is that you 1) wanted to learn Linux and 2) had to spend all that time learning it. Stuff that you know now, that you can do easily, or that might be of big benefit to you, like switching to a different fork of the kernel or compile your own software? "average users" have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and would see no benefit from it. They're just watching cat videos on youtube. None of us are saying Windows is more flexible, more customizable, more "free" than Linux. But those capabilities do not make it easier to use. They make it more flexible, more customizable, and possibly more useful to your specific use case, but that isn't the question being discussed.

sophisticles wrote:
Listen, if you guys want to use it, free country, knock yourselves out, I use it at work because I don't have a choice, but I won't sully my hardware with it.


We're all linux nerds here (see: name of forum). Your "sully my hardware" attitude and "linux is so much better because I can install a kernel fork and compile my own optimizations into my software" type of statements have absolutely zero bearing on this discussion, and are seriously the exact sort of thing that will keep the "average user" from wanting to hear more about it. You come across as an elitist snob, and this is the attitude that makes so many Linux user communities such a chore. It's like trying to play a game online while a bunch of kids berate you because you suck and don't know what you're doing. It's not a welcoming attitude and a lot of people will just stop at that first impression.

Do you really think your mom is interested in installing a real-time kernel? Do you think she would bother with it if you told her she just had to do it because it might decrease latency in some audio playback by a few ms while she watches Daily Show clips on youtube? Or do you think she just wants to surf the internet and doesn't care?
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:51 pm

sophisticles wrote:
synthtel2 wrote:
Sophisticles, I hope you're actually talking about using zram? Putting swap on a compressed ramdisk via zram is great, but what you're talking about makes absolutely no difference whatsoever (unless there's a bug somewhere, or I suppose it might make things OOM with more spectacle than they otherwise would). In addition, swappiness had a behavior change lately - setting it to zero now disables swap entirely. What you're describing is therefore doubly pointless.

I'm talking about this:

http://ubuntuguide.net/ubuntu-using-ram ... t-response

Give it a shot, I set it to 8GB, I noticed a difference right away.

That doesn't talk about putting swap on the ramdrive at all. The only thing it says about swap is that if the ramdrive gets too big it will spill over into swap (i.e. the exact reverse of what you were saying).
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:05 pm

Why would you need to put swap on a ramdisk in the first place? Doesn't Linux already do a pretty good job not swapping to disk unless necessary?
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:11 pm

Redocbew wrote:
Why would you need to put swap on a ramdisk in the first place? Doesn't Linux already do a pretty good job not swapping to disk unless necessary?


Because you can! If you're not trying new things to further optimize your system... you may as well run Windows.
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:20 pm

That's not what I mean. If there's free space in memory, then it won't get swapped out to the pagefile. If it's swapping, then the system presumably does not have enough space in main memory to store the data there anyway.
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:37 pm

sophisticles wrote:
I'm talking about this:

http://ubuntuguide.net/ubuntu-using-ram ... t-response

Give it a shot, I set it to 8GB, I noticed a difference right away.

That talks about how ramdisks are useful, and mentions swap in passing, but nowhere does it suggest putting swap on a simple ramdisk, because that would be pointless. The only way I can think of that actually helping anything would be if it tricks some programs into using more RAM because "hey, we've got swap to spare". Trouble is, that swap doesn't actually exist, and if anything ever needed to touch it, the question would just be whether the OOM killer can figure out it needs to do something before the thrashing turns into a total meltdown. Of course, with vm.swappiness=0, you shortcut the process back to not having any swap at all.

deruberhanyok wrote:
Your anecdote about your mom asking you to put "Windows" back onto the PC when it was already running Windows is a great example of the "average user" and the level of knowledge most people have about operating systems. Imagine that confusion multiplied by 40 or so distros with 8 different UIs. Which is why my point is: "Linux" is not an operating system. There are plenty of operating systems are based on the Linux architecture - kernel, display server, etc, etc - but if an average user doesn't understand the differences between Windows 7 and Windows 10, how do you expect them to know that there's 40 different types of Linux but stuff that works on one might not work on another?

So when his mom asks for Windows back, translate that as LXLE, not Linux. Problem solved. Average users get by without knowing the differences between Win7 and Win10, and they'll get by without knowing the differences between Ubuntu and Mint or LXDE and Xfce. (a) Debian vs Red Hat vs Arch and (b) boring but sane UIs vs modern ones seem to be the main variables that actually matter, and by that point things are narrowed down to a workable number of permutations.

deruberhanyok wrote:
This sort of statement is really bizarre. If Windows 10 is awkward to use, then any modern operating system must be awkward to use. The same design principles at work for the Windows UI are being used for the UI in (some) modern desktop environments. This is a huge step up from UI design prior to roughly 10 years ago, when it was basically just whatever a bunch of developers thought worked (hence menus-with-more-submenus-with-more-submenus).

Most of the relevant UI design clearly is just a bunch of devs doing whatever seems like a good idea at the time, and it probably always has been. The basic ideas seen in Win7, Gnome 2, LXDE, etc have been with us a long time because they work. Was that just a happy accident? Probably. Is something better possible? Certainly. Is doing better going to be easy? Hell no. Just saying "we have omniscient search now!" and calling it a day isn't good enough, because if a search box is going to be the core of the UI of an entire OS, it had better be bulletproof, and I mean 110%. Win10's is far from it. Credit where credit is due, it's probably better than the equivalent attempts over in Linux-land, but I still had a nicer time navigating Win7 via search than I do navigating Win10 via search.

Redocbew wrote:
Why would you need to put swap on a ramdisk in the first place?

Because zram. Compressing pages in-place instead of properly swapping them out is pretty cool. Of course, it doesn't matter to start with unless you have some memory pressure.

Redocbew wrote:
That's not what I mean. If there's free space in memory, then it won't get swapped out to the pagefile. If it's swapping, then the system presumably does not have enough space in main memory to store the data there anyway.

What Sophisticles is saying makes exactly as little sense as you think it does.
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:39 pm

Ok, just making sure. :lol:
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:04 pm

sophisticles wrote:
4) "Garbage" refers to the fact that a fresh install of Windows will run nice and fast but it's basic design lends to "Windows Rot", where eventually it slows down and needs a reinstall. This is due to a combination of a file system that's designed to fragment, a configuration setting setup designed to obfuscate many settings so as to aid in DRM; obviously I'm talking about the registry, as the tree gets bigger it takes longer and longer to transverse and this leads to increased latency. "Garbage" also refers to the telemetry/spying, ads in the OS, pathetic ram usage and the need to have one license per pc.

Listen, if you guys want to use it, free country, knock yourselves out, I use it at work because I don't have a choice, but I won't sully my hardware with it.

This hasn't been true in years (becoming "slow" over time). I'm on the same install of Windows 10 since day one of upgrades, and Windows 7 was the original upgrade on day one.

Keep your BS elsewhere, because you're not going to pull one over on anyone that knows their stuff here. Most of what you're saying isn't true.

Redocbew wrote:
Why would you need to put swap on a ramdisk in the first place? Doesn't Linux already do a pretty good job not swapping to disk unless necessary?

You wouldn't if you knew what you were doing. Removing RAM from real usable space and using it for swap is idiotic (sorry, but that's true). Anyone advocating this is clueless on how an OS works in even the basest form - setting swappiness to zero (on recent kernels) is far better in every way (be careful on older kernels, you can prematurely invoke an OOM condition).
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:12 pm

The only scenario I can think of where swapping to a RAMdisk would make any sense is on a system with >4GB of RAM but running a 32-bit OS, where the extra RAM is allocated to a RAMdisk accessed via PAE. That's a rather contrived situation these days, as pretty much anything with >4GB of RAM is going to be running a 64-bit OS.
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:16 pm

just brew it! wrote:
The only scenario I can think of where swapping to a RAMdisk would make any sense is on a system with >4GB of RAM but running a 32-bit OS, where the extra RAM is allocated to a RAMdisk accessed via PAE. That's a rather contrived situation these days, as pretty much anything with >4GB of RAM is going to be running a 64-bit OS.

That's an awful small corner case. :P I guess you could do that with VMs, but in my experience running swap well in excess of RAM (128 GB of ram, 120 TB of very fast swap) many things in the kernel fall over when you ask it to swap that aggressively on an active dataset.
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:16 pm

Waco wrote:
setting swappiness to zero (on recent kernels) is far better in every way (be careful on older kernels, you can prematurely invoke an OOM condition).

The change was in the other direction. Where I would have used 0 before, I'd now use 1.
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:03 pm

synthtel2 wrote:
Waco wrote:
setting swappiness to zero (on recent kernels) is far better in every way (be careful on older kernels, you can prematurely invoke an OOM condition).

The change was in the other direction. Where I would have used 0 before, I'd now use 1.

Ha, right. On older kernels setting it to zero would *cause* swapping under load, even if you didn't want it / didn't have swap enabled. In the latter case, OOMs aplenty.

1 tries as hard as it can to avoid swapping, 0 is for *really* disabling swapping. https://access.redhat.com/solutions/1149413
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:51 pm

just brew it! wrote:
That doesn't talk about putting swap on the ramdrive at all. The only thing it says about swap is that if the ramdrive gets too big it will spill over into swap (i.e. the exact reverse of what you were saying).


It's not the exact reverse but you are correct that it's incomplete, I thought I had done it to this system, but I just checked and I haven't and for some reason I can't initialize a swap file on the ram drive on Ubuntu, I know I did it, but I can't remember on which system, maybe one of my laptops? I also can't seem to remember how, maybe I created a ram drive, created a swap file on a different fs and the mount bind it do the swap?

It's late and tomorrow I have a long day at work, I'll look into it when I get the chance.
 
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Re: Is Linux getting easier to use then Windows?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:03 pm

Waco wrote:
This hasn't been true in years (becoming "slow" over time). I'm on the same install of Windows 10 since day one of upgrades, and Windows 7 was the original upgrade on day one.

Keep your BS elsewhere, because you're not going to pull one over on anyone that knows their stuff here. Most of what you're saying isn't true.


It most certainly is true, here's a tip straight from Microshaft on how to optimize Win 7 for maximum performance:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/hel ... erformance

This tip is simple. Restart your PC at least once a week, especially if you use it a lot. Restarting a PC is a good way to clear out its memory and ensure that any errant processes and services that started running get shut down.


So MS' suggestion on how to make Windows better is to not use it, who am I to argue?

So a Windows system that doesn't get rebooted will slow down over time per MS, I wish they had kept their BS OS to themselves and not darkened the computing landscape.

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